Obesity is a choice

What I object to is painting both groups with the same overly wide brush.

Exactly what I have been meaning to say all along.

 

<< And there are many cheap alternatives to McDonald's that aren't as bad for you. Ramen, anyone? >>

Yeah... I did the Ramen thing in college too.... -_-

I think I grew a colony in my stomach

I got sick of it after two months. It was cheap... but oy vey.

At least dollar menu gave me variety from McD's and Wendy's

 

<< 've already posted my feelings on the money arguement. It simply not true. >>

<< The money arguement is NONSENSE - it's purely a matter of poor choice. >>

Just because your experience varies, does not make it the sole truth. You cannot say it's nonsese when you are not the sole person on this planet.

Do we have choices? Yes.

Can we always make those choices? No.

The money argument was very very valid for me.

I did go grocery shopping and on many occasions. And to the cheap neighborhood market and the generic foods and produce.

Fact is, I spent more money on that than buying crap for lunch and dinner at 2 bucks.

Also, a lot of us in college for example, live day by day. I budgeted my money very well, but with few exceptions such as my milk.... I would not dare go grocery shopping for the week cause on way more than one occasion I'd get screwed.

There are circumstances. And back in college, even with a job on the side, I took the most affordable paths. Mine was eating lunch for 2 bucks.

Point is. You said YOU went grocery shopping and YOU crunched the numbers. Key word is YOU. And that's great. But you cannot say because it's like that or went like that for you.... it's the same for everyone. Cause that is nonsense.

And this is not the fat or obesity thing. There are many trim and fit guys who happen to be blue collar and are active but go to random junk place value menu often because it's cheap and they admit it.

Also of note... when I was in college... most of us didn't even have kitchens, let alone a stove.

You need to look at the circumstances. The healthier stuff was too much money for me.

And by the way... I'm not saying this as a heavy man. I'm not. I'm actuallly a slim jim. I could afford (not money wise) to eat fatty foods and hell, I still can. Would I have loved some more tastier and natural meals? Coming from a family of great cooks.... hell yeah!

I mean, except for the fries... I don't like McDonalds much. It doesn't taste like bad... but it just doesn't taste like anything at all. I once tried the meat without the bun or any of the sauces and the veggies... it tasted like nothing. Like paper. Air. It's pretty sad really. But hey, 1 buck for a double cheeseburger filled me up.

 

<< But don't depressed people have the choice of what they eat, when they eat, how much they eat, and how much they exercise? >>

No.

And yes.

Varies on the condition and the person. It's not that easy.

Since know one here knows me in real life, I can say this without a sweat:

Today I ate 2 large bags of salt and vinegar chips, a honey bun, two slices of big slice pizza, a bag of Twizlers, a pack of gum, an entire 8 piece fried chicken, mashed potatos, two double chedder burgers and a larg fries from Checkers, an Oreo ice cream bar, a Dove triple chocolate ice cream bar, a 3 Musketeers, a bowl of Chicken Corn Chowder, a small bag of Combos and an Apple Pastry.

Let me also add, that with exception of the fried chicken, mashed potatos and the soup and the pastry (which I had tonight).... I ate all the rest of that food in a span of five hours.


And the common thread with every single item I mentioned?

I threw all of them up.

In fact, just twenty minutes ago I finished throwing up the last 4 pieces of that 8 piece fried chicken. I threw up the first four around 7:30.

And yeah, it friggin' sucks.

Some people eat too much, some people don't, some people purge. And sometimes it's a disorder, caused by so many different reasons.

So yeah, some of you should really be more sympathetic or at least a bit nicer cause while there are many that have a choice... for a lot of us, we don't have much of one except for treatment and that doesn't work 100% at all and it sucks and we hate ourselves for it.

 

Jumping into the conversation a bit late...

While I am not defending all people who are obese, I will point out a few key points. I will first and foremost acknowledge that I am obese, so I am mostly referring to myself. Therefore, no one should take offense.

Yes, in some cases, obesity is a choice. There are the few medical problems with obesity, but mostly it is by choice.

For some, like myself, it was an unconscious choice. As a young child, my parents let me get away with eating more starchy foods than was good for me, which started me on the path of obesity.

Now I'm not saying this is the choice all the time, nor that it was not completely my fault. When I became aware of my own diet, was the choice up to me to continue it? Yes. Did I do anything about it? No.

However, even though I acknowledge my obesity, do I think I deserve sympathy from others? Not at all! It was my own choice to not do anything about it. I do not use it as an excuse for anything; I know my own limits and what I am capable of.

Now, there is a division of obese-by-choice people; those who, despite being obese, take advantage of it, and those who don't. For example, while physically I am classified as obese, I am in no ways inactive. I still enjoy hiking, playing sports, and going on crazy adventures (climbing a glacier in New Zealand was one of them this summer). Can I go as long/fast as the others in my group? Nope, but I still attempt (and succeed) to do them, rather then claim my physical state as a reason not to.

I don't have a problem with other obese people. It's the ones who don't do anything and let themselves get beyond an "acceptable" limit that bother me. I know I'm obese, but I don't let myself get to a state where I am incapable of motion or normal activities.

Several factors do play a role:

*Body structure. That famous "I'm not fat, I'm just big-boned" has partial merit. I come from Welsh and Scottish heritage, and everyone in my family is large-framed. As such, this means that we are all bigger, just by sheer body type. However, it does play a part in defining if someone is "fat" or not. My sister, for example, is the skinniest person in our family. She was, at one point, literally skin and bones, and she still was weighing in at 140 lbs. At 5'11, due to her large frame, she could not get any smaller than a size 10 clothes, just by body alone.

Is this an excuse that everyone can use? Heck no. I'm just noting that it does play a role. People from some ancestry are smaller than others.


Then comes in the eating factor. Classifying an obese person as someone who over eats is wrong. Again, using myself as an example, in most cases, I undereat. Many times I catch myself only eating once or twice a day, and they are usually not huge meals. They are usually a slice of pizza or a sandwhich. So it is not how much I eat, but it is what I eat that does not help.

Now in comes diets. I have tried everything in the book, and many do not work. It all depends on the person. For example, I was on the Atkins diet for several months. I followed it to a tee, and only found myself getting sick whenever I ate. However, I have seen cases of it working. One of my friends went on the Atkins and lost over 120 lbs.

To sum it up, while obesity is a choice, it's not one you can chose for the world. It is up to those who allow themselves to become obese to choose whether or not they want to live that lifestyle. Do I want to lose weight? Of course. Thanks to the corruption of television, everyone wants to have a size 0 "perfect" waist. Should I lose weight for my health? Yes, I should. Am I doing everything in my power to lose weight? No. School is my top priority; usually it involves me sitting endlessly while reading/studying/doing homework. I still do some exercise inbetween work and school, but not enough to have noticable weight loses. Is this my choice? Yes.


On the issue of sympathy or "tough love" from others: it's basically

 

Point is. You said YOU went grocery shopping and YOU crunched the numbers. Key word is YOU. And that's great. But you cannot say because it's like that or went like that for you.... it's the same for everyone. Cause that is nonsense.

My point was that if I could budget while at college and eat healthy food, then why can't anyone else ? (for the record I didn't receive any external funding, and my parents didn't for me while at University - I worked my ass off all summer to have the money to see me through term time)

As a young child, my parents let me get away with eating more starchy foods than was good for me

excellent point, and a major route of obesity.

the DDR Diet where you play 30 minutes to an hour of DDR a day

That's actually a great idea - that's actually something they could put into schools that would encourage physical activity.

Although you'd get uncoordinated people like me who can't make it past the first level

 

Whats DDR?

 

[image=http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/p/spiehlera/photos/fernley/veronica%20rocking%20DDR.jpg]

Dance Dance Revolution

 

Yes.

I was mistaken when I said the general public is the government. What I meant to say was that the general public has to pay the bills for government, which is ultimately worse than my first example. Thank you for bolstering my point.

Will this cost me and all other taxpayers money to do so?

No, but that was never my purpose. My statement was that there have been obese people before the creation of fast food restaurants. I'm surprised I'm not getting fatter, with all these words you're putting in my mouth.

This is one of those times when one must question the intelligence of the average human being.

My point is that people have a choice, whether or not there are other "factors." People are not fat because fast food restaurants exist, they are fat because they might eat solely at those restaurants. Likewise, people don't commit murder just because the victim, for instance, committed a lesser offence against him (such as calling him a name). People commit murder because they make the choice to kill someone. My point is that, if obesity was caused only by fast-food restaurants, then murder convictions could be overturned because the convict held a grudge against the victim.

And I don't feel like I should have to say this, but no, fatness is not a felony.

Ah, but I have fallen sick and did not force other people completely unrelated to me to pay for my healthcare. With my record of being self-sufficient, it would be difficult to accuse me of being willing to commit such an awful offence in the future.

[image=http://www.iamnotageek.com/images/smilies/smiley_violin.gif]

 

You know what?

Shove it, pal.

That was rude and just out of line.

Go to one of my support meetings with me, and maybe you'd see that not everyone has such an easy choice.

You know, I didn't have to do this. I am providing my own experiences on what its like to have an eating disorder (because an eating disorder doesn't just fall under stravation or purging), and your reaction is just nasty.

So you know, if you don't even want to try to understand a lot of people on the other side... then your opinions on this matter don't even count to me.

I'm sorry. You're very rude.

 

*sighs loudly* I'm trying to restrain my temper here, but your posts really push me to my limits, malkie.

If you honestly believe that I haven't offered an alternative explanation, the only conclusion I can draw is that you aren't even reading my posts, which makes me wonder why I'm wasting my time by continuing to post here. Your not agreeing with the numerous possible explanations that I and others have brought up doesn't make them automatically false and invalid nonarguments.

I don't agree with the argument that obesity = laziness, but that doesn't mean I dismiss the argument and pretend there aren't even any words coming out of your mouth. Understand the difference?

I will provide a bullet-pointed list of the numerous other factors that can play in obesity. This way, if you continue to claim that your opponents "haven't offered any explanations," it will be apparent to everyone that you started this thread only to voice your own opinions and aren't interested in looking at or thinking about anything any other poster writes.

• Poverty. I know we've discussed this before, and you said in the other thread that you haven't experienced poverty on anywhere near the scale that many others have, so I think that offering your own experience of always having been able to afford healthy food is hardly proof that everyone else can do it as well. Produce is always over a dollar a pound, sometimes much more depending on what you buy, and it takes a pretty significant mass of fruits and vegetables to put together a filling meal. There are people who can't even afford fruits and vegetables and have to scrape by on Ramen noodles, prepackaged macaroni & cheese, and whatever other ultra-processed foods are available. It's not a coincidence that poverty is strongly correlated with obesity.


• The modern era's skyrocketing rates of behavior-related psychological disorders and full-blown mental illnesses. You can choose to blame the individuals for this if you like, but I don't think it makes sense to imply that any sort of mental illness isn't due to at least some extent to societal factors. (My personal feeling is that society is probably the major cause for a lot of them.)


• Upbringing. Kids who are born into families with unrestrictive parents who don't teach them healthy eating habits may well remain disadvantaged for life by their lack of discipline about their own health. Furthermore, some of those kids might have already become overweight or obese even before getting out of childhood, which further complicates the issue of their trying to lose weight and get back into shape as adults.


• Handicap or any sort of physical ailment or chronic pain. There are plenty of people who have trouble exercising or are limited in the type of exercise they can do because of the limitations of their own bodies. For example, a lot of older people can't tolerate any exercise other than swimming for short periods because impact on their joints is too painful and damaging.


• Glandular disorders. It goes without saying that there are a lot more people out there who claim to have metabolic problems than there are people who genuinely do have these troubles, but glandular disorders certainly do exist.


• Pregnancy. The majority of women who've given birth are never able to regain the physical condition they had before pregnancy, including their pre-pregnancy weight. Again, I suppose you could claim it's entirely because of personal weakness that this happens, but the fact that so many women have this problem suggests to me it must be at least in part biological. If nothing else, pregnant women have to eat enormous amounts to keep the baby healthy, and dieting is neither possible nor safe.

P.S. Honestly, I think I'd better stop posting for the time being, since I'm afraid I might write something I'll regret. Howe

 

All of your above statments neglect the most important factor in the vast majority of cases, DLM: personal responsibility

I am in the thick of treating these individuals after they end up in ICU from their poor lifestyle choices. We are seeing numerous cases of the gastric bypass surgeries performed on individuals with no sense of responsibility over their behaviorisms. That's not to mention the diabetics, the CHF and CAD patients, and on and on...

Genetic predisposition to being obese isn't generally nearly as common as the individual who doesn't take any responsibility for their gluttony.

 

I was actually just putting together my shopping list for today, using the ads from the 3 closest supermarkets (one is a block away, andothe 2-3 blocks, and the 3rd about a mile). Here are some of the items that they are currently offering, just in the case of produce. Keep in mind that I live in the DC area, which has a higher cost of living than most of the US (and if you want, I can give you via PM the information for you to chack these prices yourself).

• 5-lb. bag of apple - $3.99
• Bananas - $0.59/lb (regular price, one store offers older, ripe bananas in bags for $0.33/lb, and sometimes as low as $0.25)
• Broccoli crowns - 10 lbs/$10
• Bartlett pears - $0.99/lb

That's just a sampling, and it neglects the prices at the nearby Korean supermarket, that has some insanely low prives on produce (although the quality can be a lot more variable).

In fact, let's add another store to the list, since I have to head over in that direction anyways:

• Iceburg lettuce - $0.99/head
• Onions - 2 3 lb bags/$4
• Red & Golden Delicious apples - $0.98/lb
• Bananas - $0.39/lb
• Seedless Clementines - 5 lb box/$3.98

Consider, for example, one of my wife's and my favorite meals, broken down by cost:

1 lb. pasta ($0.99 regular price)
1 lb. ground turkey (sold in tubes for $1.49/lb, often on sale for $1/lb)
1 jar pasta sauce ($1.39 regular price for the cheap stuff)
Garlic ($0.99/lb for the fresh stuff)
1 bag frozen green beans ($0.99 on sale, $1.25 regular)
1 bag frozen corn ($0.99 on sale, $1.25 regular)
Light olive oil ($5.99/bottle, but it lasts for quite a while)
Parmesean cheese ($3.99 for a small tub of the fresh, shredded cheese, regular price, and it lasts a while)

With all of that, my wife and I can usually feed ourselves for 2 meals (saving leftovers for lunch the next day). Total cost? Less than $8 total at regular supermarket prices, or less than $2/per person.

Here's another recipe that we have been known to enjoy (a philipino one):

Chicken Adobo
water
soy sauce (you can get the low sodium version)
vinegar
1 onion
pepper corns (a small-medium handful)
garlic (as much as you want)
chicken (you can get the cheapest, rubberiest stuff for this, currently on sale for $0.99/lb for drumsticks)

Remove the skin from the chicken, and put it in a large pot. Add the other ingredients (equal parts of water, soy sauce, and vinegar) and boil for about 45 minutes (add water if it needs it). Remove the chicken and skim off the fat from the liquid. Use remaining liquid as sauce over rice and serve it with vegetables. For an entire meal, this one comes out around $2-3 per person, at regular supermarket prices, and less if you shop the sales.

Yes, if you insist on only buying the organic produce, or the high-quality meat, groceries can get extremely expensive, but you don't need all of those. Those may be the "healthiest" options (they aren't always), but that doesn't mean that you can't find something that will meet your health needs for a good price.

Kimball Kinnison

 

*sighs loudly* I'm trying to restrain my temper here, but your posts really push me to my limits, malkie.

I could absolutely say the same about your posts, but you don't see me resorting to name calling, or mild baits as you have in your previous posts. You clearly arent't reading my point, and continuing to post the same list of crap excuses, rather than actually address the valid points that I'm posting.

I'm sorry, but those list of points are excuses and not reasons - you've stated them all before, and I've ripped every single one of them apart in the past.

Glandular disorders do not cause obesity (having a poor diet does). Having chronic pain and being unable to exercise does not cause obesity (eat more food than you need while being unable to exercise causes obesity). Poverty does not cause obesity (you don't find obese people in nations which suffer from complete poverty do you ?). Psychological disorders do not cause obesity (not controlling your diet does). Pregnancy doesn't cause obesity (over-eating while pregnant does).

Again, it's nothing more than a list of poor excuses, and I really think you need to get your head out of the sand and accept some personal liability for the reasons for obesity.

I state again, that there is nothing stopping anyone losing weight who can actually be bothered, and you have done absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.

P.S. Honestly, I think I'd better stop posting for the time being, since I'm afraid I might write something I'll regret.

I'm not going to be bothered by anything you post, so post away. Obviously if you break the TOS then the Senate mods might feel the need to edit, but I'm sure you can post without evoking the wrath of KK. Basically, you anger is coming from the simple fact that you are grasping at straws, and posting excuses rather than accept the truth that there are no real reasons for anyone to be obese.



p.s. thanks to KK for taking the poverty excuse literally and posting a quality shopping list




edit

on second thoughts, I think the real reason that you're "not posting for a while" is because you know you've got nothing but excuses to repeat.

 

Psychological disorders do not cause obesity (not controlling your diet does).


Correct. But I think we've been over this before. Those with eating disorders do not have the same ability to control their diet as normal people do. Otherwise, it's not really a disorder, is it? I will say that such people have a choice regarding whether or not to get help, which, indirectly, means they are making the choice to try and control their eating habits. But it's difficult, far more so than for the rest of us. And as has been pointed out, there is sometimes very little professionals can do to help patients with eating disorders. I think the main problem we're complaining about is people begging off responsibility for their actions. But when it comes to people like son_of_the_tear, we can obviously see that they are accepting a great deal of responsibility and working hard to get help.

 

Psychological disorders do not cause obesity

If you are not aware that the person you are talking to isn't really a person but actually is a tree, then you might think the cheeseburger you are eating is really a twig. Extreme example, but the point is the mentally retarded don't have the brain capacity to understand that they can't eat everything they want without getting fat, and those with mental disorders are very similar in many respects to those with mental disablities. If you lack the power to make logical choices, then you have no choice.

Nobody is trying to take all the blame away from all the obese. It seems this is based far too much on personal anecdotes, when if there is a correlation between poverty and obesity, that is something that is more useful than the fact that the cheapest food is also that the most highly processed.


I state again, that there is nothing stopping anyone losing weight who can actually be bothered

Again with the generalizations are we? Do I really have to bring up the Praeder Wilis thing again to prove that there is at least 1 person in the world with 1 thing stopping them from loosing weight that they have absolutely no control over?

 

Praeder Wilis

That's no proof of any sort in the slightest. There is nothing physically or biologically stopping them from losing weight.

However, Praeder Wilis has been dropped from this thread seeing as it effects such a tiny, tiny minority of people.

 

How do you know all that? Some women gain too much weight during pregnancy and until the baby is born, nobody can tell, not even the doctors, what the weight of the baby will be. Sometimes, the baby is born very heavy and all weight goes away. My grandmother lost 25 kg of weight right after my mother and my aunt were born (they are twins). My grandmother wasn't obese, she had too much water, and she expected twins. The weight of the babies was not more than 7 kilograms both of them together, but my grandmother also lost much blood. It was 55 years ago, and the doctors didn't have enough equipment or medications to help her. Talking of weight loss here... When I was pregnant, I was gaining weight very slowly, and then my son was born very big and very heavy - I have tall husband, so it is normal for our son to be tall, too. I lost 8 kilograms of weight after he was born. I wanted the best for my son so I was breast feeding him as long as possible. I'll tell you more, I was expressing lots of my milk to cook cereal for him, because he can't consume milk of the cow because of his disease (he has NUC and lactose intolerance). I was eating lots of healthy food, but it all went into milk and I was losing weight. I never was too active in exercises and such, but I want my house to be clean, so all my calories get burnt while I clean and wash everything. I don't like public transport too much, and I can't drive car (yet), so I walk short distances when I need to go somewhere not too far away. Since I stopped breast feeding, I have gained some weight, but I am not obese, not fat, and I hope I don't face that problem. I don't understand, why is it such a problem to eat less, if someone is fat. Just stop thining about the food, get yourself occupied with something else, and try to eat less, and all will be well. I think the best way not to be fat, is not to gain weight - as you say it is so difficult to lose the weight if it is already on your beltline.

~Shery~

 

How do you know all that?

Where does the excess weight come from if it's not from eating ?

Women are expected to gain weight during pregnancy - that's kinda obvious with something growing inside you. However, not too much, and it isn't defined as obesity if it's within the "healthy" weight gain limits for pregnancy.

This also extents to post-partum to ensure a healthy level of milk production with all of the essential ingredients - however, this still isn't considered obesity.

But, not losing the weight after birth is considered obesity, and can easily be controlled - especially if you spend 10 hours a day chasing after a toddler.

 

You're lucky, Malkie, that you do not have to deal with a metabolic disorder.

Do you think you could eat and work out like I do? How I wish I were naturally thin. But the naturallly thin have no right to condemn those of us who have to struggle. While I have been able to keep my weight under control, I can appreciate how difficult it is and that's why I have a really hard time condeming overweight folks as "lazy." Please have some respect for how incredibly, incredibly difficult it is to maintain a normal weight in the face of a metabolic disorder. I really have a hard time judging overweight people who simply don't have the time to cook and work out like I do. I'm at a place in my life where I can work out three hours a day and cook the lowfat meals, but I worry about what will happen when I no longer have that kind of time.

And as for excessive eating leading to excess weight, not neccessarily true. My college roommate ate like a hog, never worked out, weighed 95 pounnds and fit into double-zero jeans. No, I can't agree with you that thinness versus obesity is a choice.

I think that everyone who condemns the overweight for being lazy and unable to eat properly should post their daily diets and exercise schedules.

 

I hope you will not gain excess weight even if you stop working out daily - may be you can try to eat less, and you will keep normal weight. Also I think it is a good idea not to eat before sleep, and avoid chocolate.

Personally I don't have a daily diet for myself, only for my little son, but he is seriously ill and he needs special diet to GAIN weight, not lose it. But, of course, I never condemned obese people. I know that obesity is a disease, it's medical diagnosis, which leads to other illnesses - heart, pancreas, liver, etc, etc, etc. Obese people need medical treatment, and I don't think anyone should blame them for "wasting money of tax-payers". Such people are unhappy already.

~Shery~

 

You're lucky, Malkie, that you do not have to deal with a metabolic disorder.

PPOR - don't make assumptions about me.

But the naturallly thin have no right to condemn those of us who have to struggle.

where have I comdemned anyone ?

Please have some respect for how incredibly, incredibly difficult it is to maintain a normal weight in the face of a metabolic disorder.

I have stated time and time again that it isn't easy. Please don't pick and choose which parts of my posts to read.

And as for excessive eating leading to excess weight, not neccessarily true.

I have never said that. I stated that obesity is caused by overeating (that's a fact). I didn't say that everyone who over eats is obese

I think that everyone who condemns the overweight for being lazy and unable to eat properly should post their daily diets and exercise schedules.

And what would that achieve ? You've completely contradicted yourself, because in the previous paragraph you stated that some people can over eat and remain at their target weight - so, knowing everyones diet and exercise schedule is totally irrevelant.

 

I know for a fact you don't have Praeder Wilis, and you don't have a metabolic disorder so please address the point rather than saying "you don't know me" when it is obvious you are not afflicted with either disorder, and the proof is upon you to prove otherwise as this is the internet bud, and we ain't psychic but there is something called common sense.

I don't understand how you can say that someone who literally feels like they are starving to death every second of the day doesn't have a physical or biological problem that prevents them from loosing weight. If you could create a fake illness that would be more of physical or biological problem to one losing weight I would like to hear it.

Malkie, I will stop bringing up the "irrelevent" minority when you stop dealing in absolutes.

 

Of course, many individuals that are overweight take high offense to individuals telling them the truth of their behavior. Or, they'll simply make exuses for it.

Such is to be expected in a society that reinforces that individuals can do no wrong and there are no judgements made about bad behaviorisms. Parents raise their kids these days capable of ducking responsibility from any number of things like Neo dodges bullets on The Matrix.

 

I know for a fact you don't..........have a metabolic disorder

Then post your proof please.

Malkie, I will stop bringing up the "irrelevent" minority when you stop dealing in absolutes.

I never called them irrelevant once, and I've told you time and time again to stop misquoting me. But it's still clear that they have choice - certainly not an easy one, but a choice never the less. I can deal in absolutes because it's the truth, and no-one yet in this thread has posted anything that convinces me otherwise. Every single excuse posted has been ripped apart time and time again.