Obi-Wan Kenobi - Since before you were born

Vaderfandan is suggesting that a single use of the name Obi-Wan within 1 minute of Luke's birth in ROTS has caused the bridge between the PT and OT to fail.

This is not an inconsistency brought about by ROTS. ANH proves Obi-Wan's statement false on its own.

If ROTS was supposed to make Ben's statement about the name Obi-Wan true, how would it explain why Owen recognizes the name Obi-Wan and knows who he is? Are you suggesting Owen doesn't know that Old Ben is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi? We know he does. The clue that Ben was not telling Luke the truth is the fact that Owen knows Old Ben is Obi-Wan, and Owen is lying to Luke. He tells Luke Obi-Wan is dead. Lie.

It is clear that Owen knows Old Ben, ("that wizard is just a crazy old man") is Obi-Wan, that's why he wants Luke to stay away from him. He doesn't want Luke finding out and joining Kenobi on some "damn-fool idealistic crusade". It's also clear from ANH that Ben knows Owen and has a history with him as well, so there is another clue Owen would have to know Ben is Obi-Wan.

Second clue that Ben is also known as Obi-Wan and goes by that name: Leia's message. Leia addresses him as Obi-Wan Kenobi. So we know that Leia learned the name from Bail. And Leia knows exactly who Luke is talking about when he says "I'm here with Ben Kenobi!" LEIA: "Ben Kenobi, where is he?" This is additional proof within ANH that Ben is known as Obi-Wan even after the twins are born. Leia knows he is both Obi and Ben.

The point is, that even though all these people know him as Obi-Wan and refer to him by that name, HE HIMSELF does not go by that name anymore and made an effort from the moment the twins were born to go by the name Ben on Tatooine. He cannot stop anyone knowing who he is from calling him Obi-Wan, but all the new people he encounters while hiding on Tatooine would know him by his alias.

NEVERTHELESS... despite the fact that ANH makes it certain Ben was also known by the name Obi-Wan after Luke was born, I believe Padme is the only one who calls him Obi-Wan after the twins are born. Yoda refers to him as Master Kenobi. It would be silly to suggest that his comrades would stop calling him Obi-Wan the second the twins are born. Why would they?

But I repeat, ANH already made it clear that Ben was not telling Luke the truth. ROTS did not cause some problem. ANH already explained the background surrounding the name and who knows Obi-Wan is Ben Kenobi.

Whether he knew it or not, he has been referred to as Obi-Wan even after Luke was born. But he personally goes by the name Ben and has since the purge and birth of the twins. Ben is his official alias on Tatooine and only a close circle of confidants know he is Obi-Wan. (Yoda, Bail, Leia, Owen, Beru.)

 

So you guys take that extremely literally? When Obi-Wan said he had "not gone by the name of Obi-Wan since oh, before you were born."

Does this statement mean that NO ONE absolutely NO ONE not even once called him Obi-Wan after Luke was born? I guess so.

Here's the problem - There is no point in the PT in which Obi Wan stops going by that name.

It's one of those "rules" that was established in the OT, that got tossed aside by GL.

I think it's hilarious that fans try to explain this away with "What he meant was..."
Rather than listening to what HE ACTUALLY SAYS.

Then there's the old "Obi Wan was lying" excuse. Apparently sometime between ROTS and ANH, Obi Wan turned into a "good" version of Sidious. Apparently he lies and manipulates Luke into becoming a Jedi, the same way Sidious lies and manipulates Anakin into becoming a Sith.

Look, we all have to live in the post ROTS world, but it doesn't change the fact that if ROTS had been released before ANH, Obi Wan's line would've been changed.

VFD

 

If you havent used a name in about 20 years, are you going to remember it was 20 years, 2 months, 3 weeks and 1 day and 6 hours and 32 minutes since you last used that name ?? Or was it 20 years, 3 months, 2 weeks and 3 days and 9 hours and 23 minutes ?? Heck, after all his hard drinking and his age, its amazing he remembers the name at all. How many here can remember minute by minute detail about everything that happened the day before yesterday ??

 

Well, I think it's hilarious that people think there?s a plot hole for every line spoken in the OT. But, I guess saying "Everything doesn't have to be spelled out" would be a "lame comeback".

 

Then there's the old "Obi Wan was lying" excuse.

look we have to accept that obi-wan did basicly lie to luke.

the story was rewriten at the point when GL realized that star wars was a big enough hit to have a sequal.

you accept the second, but never actualy planned for by the creator, death star without question but have issues with this rewrite?

i actualy think lucas did a great job at creating a series out of a movie that was not realy designed to have a sequal.

consider this statement that was true in 77 that weren't true by 83 just because there was money for a sequal:

vader killed anakin

 

After seeing ROTS I can use my imagination to say that Ben was telling Luke a lie about his Fathers saber. I doubt Lucas was intending for Ben to be a lying machine when he did the first film though. But going as far to say that he's lying about EVERYTHING is an obvious go-to filler for plot-holes. Why would Ben lie to Luke about when he stopped using his Jedi name? What Ben is expressing, what he is saying is: Its been a long time way before your birth that I went by my Jedi name. ROTS clearly contradicts that. Weather it's big or small it's still an oversight on Georges part.

In any other arena we could agree that all films have some form of plot-hole, but here, were supposed to believe that George Lucas is the king of air-tight scripting and everything fits, there are no plot-holes, and nothing is unexplained because it's all right in front of you.

"Give me a break"-Harrison Ford

 

Vaderfandan is suggesting that a single use of the name Obi-Wan within 1 minute of Luke's birth in ROTS has caused the bridge between the PT and OT to fail.

Sorry Ewok, you're wrong. As I've said many times, in several threads, it's the PATTERN of inconsistencies that has caused the failure. The grains of sand that have created a mountain.
One or two of these little inconsisancies are forgiveable. But there are too many to ignore.
And because of this, I'm going to raise hell about all of them.

Are you suggesting Owen doesn't know that Old Ben is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi? We know he does. The clue that Ben was not telling Luke the truth is the fact that Owen knows Old Ben is Obi-Wan, and Owen is lying to Luke. He tells Luke Obi-Wan is dead. Lie.

"Gone by the name of" is different than someone knowing who he is, or finding out who he is after talking with him. As far as Owen goes, doesn't he say he thinks Obi Wan is dead, or is probably dead?

It is clear that Owen knows Old Ben, ("that wizard is just a crazy old man") is Obi-Wan, that's why he wants Luke to stay away from him. He doesn't want Luke finding out and joining Kenobi on some "damn-fool idealistic crusade". It's also clear from ANH that Ben knows Owen and has a history with him as well, so there is another clue Owen would have to know Ben is Obi-Wan.

Thanks for reminding me of yet another FAILURE of ROTS - Why does Owen dislike Obi Wan so much? I guess we'll leave that up to YOU to to explain to us.

Leia's message. Leia addresses him as Obi-Wan Kenobi. So we know that Leia learned the name from Bail. And Leia knows exactly who Luke is talking about when he says "I'm here with Ben Kenobi!" LEIA: "Ben Kenobi, where is he?" This is additional proof within ANH that Ben is known as Obi-Wan even after the twins are born.

No. It establishes that Bail knew Obi Wan was Ben. BUT HOW? Obi Wan never went by Ben in ROTS. The last time he saw Bail was right after the twins were born. UH-OH! I think you've discovered a PLOT HOLE! No wait, let me guess - The explanation for that happens off-screen sometime between ROTS & ANH, right?

Leia knows he is both Obi and Ben.

Because of Bail.

The point is, that even though all these people know him as Obi-Wan and refer to him by that name, HE HIMSELF does not go by that name anymore and made an effort from the moment the twins were born to go by the name Ben on Tatooine. He cannot stop anyone knowing who he is from calling him Obi-Wan, but all the new people he encounters while hiding on Tatooine would know him by his alias.

You are correct! The problem is that Obi wan doesn't stop going by that name until he gets to Tattooine, which is AFTER the twins are born.

 

Uh huh. And I'm sure that little line of dialogue makes ROTS a piece of garbage and completely ruins Star Wars.

Please, get over it.

I also enjoy how you use your self-invented "lame comebacks" to dismiss arguments brought against you. While I agree with a couple of them myself, I don't have the presumption to automatically dismiss arguments by invoking them. But then, you'll probably just call me wrong.

 

I have already shown two major examples where ANH itself contradicts Ben's comment about the "Obi-Wan" name and proves it false - or at least a very loose interpretation of what is really true.

ANH shows that both Owen and Leia know Ben is Obi-Wan Kenobi. They cannot know this information unless he has gone by the name Obi-Wan or referred to as Obi-Wan circa ROTS.

His close circle of confidants know he is Obi-Wan a.k.a. Ben Kenobi. Anyone else only knows him by his official alias, Ben.

There is NO reason why Obi-Wan's comrades and confidants would cease to call him by that name the moment the twins are born.

For Obi-Wan to pinpoint the exact moment and reason why he needed the alias Ben would not only be dangerous, it would also be an irrelevant aside in the context of his conversation with Luke while sitting on a rock in the Jundland Wastes.

 

vaderfandan posted:

---

Thanks for reminding me of yet another FAILURE of ROTS - Why does Owen dislike Obi Wan so much? I guess we'll leave that up to YOU to to explain to us.[hr][/blockquote]
He doesn't dislike Obi-Wan. Owen says those things about Obi-Wan so Luke would stay away from him and not end up following old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like his father. Is it that hard to understand from watching ANH? Did GL really need to tell us? No, he didn't, the scene in ANH is pretty self-explanatory if you'd stop looking for non existent plot holes and watch the film.

 

vaderfan will you just shut up already?
how's this for a lame comeback, shut the he** up!!
star wars was tied up, it makes sense, so leave
this one small, tiny little line alone.

 

It's one of those "rules" that was established in the OT, that got tossed aside by GL.

Again with the rules. What rules?

 

Uh huh. And I'm sure that little line of dialogue makes ROTS a piece
of garbage and completely ruins Star Wars.

Please, get over it.

I think you might've missed this post of mine...

As I've said many times, in several threads, it's the PATTERN of inconsistencies that has caused the failure. The grains of sand that have created a mountain. One or two of these little inconsisancies are forgiveable. But there are too many to ignore. And because of this, I'm going to raise hell about all of them.

I also enjoy how you use your self-invented "lame comebacks" to dismiss arguments brought against you. While I agree with a couple of them myself, I don't have the presumption to automatically dismiss arguments by invoking them. But then, you'll probably just call me wrong.

Well, you're wrong in the sense that I'm NOT going to call you wrong.

YES - I DO dimiss certain points of an argument by pointing them out. 99% of the time,
there's no point in continuing a discussion with someone who clings to those comebacks or excuses.

If anyone wants a detailed explanation of each, I'd be happy to go into details on each of them.

VFD

 

vaderfandan, show me the line in ROTS where Obi-Wan introduces himself (by that name) to someone after the twins are born.

 

vaderfan must realize, army or not.....

he.....is......doomed

"hmmmmm because obi said that he hasn't gone by that name
before luke was born, george failed and star wars is a
failure, and a grain of sand, and blah, blah blah"

dude, shut up.

 

Let's not tell people to shut up.

 

oh, right. sorry.

hey vaderfan.....um....quit typing...uh...stupid...things.

is that better?

 

fettmaster39, as much as you may disagree with vaderfandan, it's not proper to get quite so inflammatory.

Anyway, vaderfandan, I did indeed miss that post of yours. Thanks for posting it up again for me.

In regards to the lame comebacks, I think I agree that #1, #3, and #4 are indeed lame, because I feel that those statements aren't necessary to tell why all six of these movies are good. It might be possible for #2 to be valid, though, in certain situations, such as when we're dealing with things of absolutely no consequence. #5 is valid to a certain point as well, IMO, because many people who dislike the prequels seem to carry around the presumption that GL owed it to them to show them a film that they wanted to see, rather than the one GL wanted to make. That's just arrogant, in my opinion.

Thank you for proving me wrong by not calling me wrong . I appreciate it.

 

And because of this, I'm going to raise hell about all of them.

what is the point?

this is the reason the simpsons have a 'comic book guy'.

 

joba, i know. its just sometimes i get so frutrated with
the council.....i mean with vaderfan's posts.

 

vaderfandan posted:

---

"Gone by the name of" is different than someone knowing who he is, or finding out who he is after talking with him.[hr][/blockquote]

In your mind, does "gone by that name" mean Obi-Wan openly uses that name, or does it simply mean "referred to by that name" - because Leia records her message to Obi-Wan and the audience hears her say the name Obi-Wan before it is revealed Old Ben is Obi-Wan.

Therefore, ANH contradicts Ben's statement (if you must take it so literally).

If you are saying Leia's address to Obi-Wan does not count because Bail already knew who Obi-Wan was, then Padme addressing Obi-Wan by his real name should not count either - she already knows him.

And since no one else calls him Obi-Wan after the children are born, and since he never personally refers to himself or introduces himself as Obi-Wan in ROTS after the children are born, then his ANH statement stands as correct.

Anyway you look at it, it's either contradicted by ANH or proven correct by ROTS - [b]not the other way around[/b].

 

vaderfandan, show me the line in ROTS where Obi-Wan introduces himself (by that name) to someone after the twins are born.

The burden of proof on you, not me. You are the one claiming something happened when it didn't. I'm simply pointing out that it didn't happen. Obi Wan never stopped going by that name. How do I know?
NOT DOING IT, IS IN THE MOVIE! The ONLY name he is called is Obi Wan.

How about this - Show me a scene in ROTS where Obi Wan even introduces himself. Is there one?
I suppose by YOUR logic, Obi Wan hasn't gone by that name since what? AOTC?

VFD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fettmaster39 -

#1 -

vaderfan will you just shut up already?
how's this for a lame comeback, shut the he** up!!
star wars was tied up, it makes sense, so leave
this one small, tiny little line alone.

#2 -

vaderfan must realize, army or not.....

he.....is......doomed

"hmmmmm because obi said that he hasn't gone by that name
before luke was born, george failed and star wars is a
failure, and a grain of sand, and blah, blah blah"

dude, shut up.

Thanks for the insight Fettmaster39! You really made me re-think everything!
It's intelligent posts like that make this board worthwhile.

Thanks again, Dude.

VFD

 

Poor Obi-Wan - he shows that he is a human and makes an error in calculating time, and everyone jumps all over him and calls him an alky and a liar!

We've all heard our parents/relatives do it: come up with some exaggeration about time and events that have occurred in the past, often including the line "before you were born" and seen them be slightly (or even grossly) incorrect.

So what?

Give poor old Obi ... er Ben ... a break!

 

i'm getting angry because you're making a huge deal
out of obi-wan's petty little line.

who cares if he wasn't called "ben" in rots?
star wars is complete, it makes sense, GL is a geinious,
drop it.

 

Yes, and p'raps Obi-Wan should have paid more attention in English at school ...