Obi-Wan knew!!!!!

I hate to oversimplify this, but I think he simply sensed a trap. I mean, that's what it was. It was nothing more than Mace saying "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi". He didn't know what exactly that plot was though. Same thing with what Obi-wan says.

 

So you don't think the Jedi had a target of opportunity plan to nab
Grevious? I thought the whole "we're smarter than this" line
was irony. They are smarter than that.

 

The whole "we're smarter than this line" was just cringe inducing and an editing opportunity missed.

 

I'll grant you that, Choz

The only saving grace is that it possibly relates
to an bonus mission of nabbing Grevious. Perhaps
I'm proposing this entire reasoning just to explain
that terrible line.

 

I don't think there is anything to suggest the Jedi have, or are in a position to engineer, any kind of "trap".
Their plan is to risk life and limb by daring to fly into General Grievous flagship and rescue the Chancellor.
It is crazy, and something only the likes of Ani and Obi would ever get away with.
The banter is just a bit of cameraderie between Obi and Ani, IMO.

Basically:
"We're being lured into a trap here."
"So what do we do?"
"Hell, what do we always do - walk into the trap. We've been through worse things than this over the past three years..."

Their exploits in the Clone Wars are legendary, their bravery and skill unsurpassed.
It is pretty much the same situation on Utapau, where Obi is stood in the rafters weighing up his options.
What does he do?
Dive straight in - he has a mission to complete.

As for the "we're smarter than this" line - it does grate a little.
But I always think of the humour in it - it can be taken a few ways.
It is a yet another little friendly dig at Ani - "Don't blame me for this, I've been unconscious...?"
Or even a little in-joke for the audience, that Obi's line is put in the context that he is basically stood right next to the actual source of the shroud of the Dark Side - his precognition may literally be at an all time low and he doesn't even know it...

 

You're right. It makes no sense because of the reasons I listed.

 

No sense to you, which speaks more about you, than I, it would seem.

 

Long Answer: Obi Wan didn't know anything specific about the trap, except that he sensed there was one.

Short Answer: No, Obi-Wan didn't know.

Move along, move along...

 

Kenobi felt something wrong. After all, they had unpleasant dealings with Count Dooku before. It's essential to think a trap would be in the works. After all, they were dealing with the leader of the Separatists.

 

Actually, it doesn't, seeing as how the majority of the people who have responded to this thread seem to agree that Obi-Wan was speaking in vague terms about a trap set FOR the Jedi, not BY the Jedi for General Grievous. And once again, there was no "code-word" for Artoo to spring into action other than "Artoo!"

Was Han Solo getting frozen in carbonite an elaborate ploy to kill Jabba the Hutt?

 

Sorry to go off-topic here.

it was irony, just not in the way theCRZA interpreted it. If you don't believe there are numerous "opposites" between ROTS and TPM, you probably won't appreciate this post. for anyone with a little more faith, here is a blatant link in the early scenes of both movies.

TPM - Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon attempt to enter Nute Gunray's command room by melting the door. Droid-Dekas appear, and fire rapidly.
Obi-Wan: "Master, destroyers!" Without a further word, they both take off down the corridor in retreat.
ROTS - Ironically, this time around the (current) two Jedi are taken to Grievous's command room while trying to escape the ship. This is obvious irony when you realise the 2 Jedi in TPM were trying to enter the command room of the ship. In ROTS they are taken there forcefully, and eventually the ship's commander(Grievous) flees instead of the Jedi!

In TPM they flee the command room because the droids have shields. In ROTS they are taken to the command room because of a ray-shield, and then droid-dekas turn up to take them there (rather than make them flee it). the droid-dekas are even contrasting in appearance; their shields are down, and they fire no shots.

So we have Obi-Wan and his master fleeing Nute Gunray, and his command room. Compared to ROTS, where we have Obi-Wan and his apprentice taken to the command room, which leads to Grievous fleeing his own command! Why does nobody else see this? it is driving me insane!

Obi-Wan: "I thought we were smarter than this."
Anakin: "Apparantely not."
Seems like a little insider joke from Lucas, in reference to the times of TPM.
I don't know why people never agree with me on this one, considering how many other
"opposite-parallels" there are between Nute Gunray's and Grievous's ships. If you actually look for them they are numerous, and without having to reach for details.
Sure, it is a little far-fetched, but this is Star Wars! These sorts of links are found all the time, particularly revolving around the opening scenes of TPM and ROTS.

You can even easily compare the way the 2 Jedi get back to the planet (Naboo and Coruscant).
In TPM Qui-Gon tels Obi-Wan to sneak aboard an invasion ship. In ROTS, Anakin flies the main invasion ship back down to Coruscant himself.

 

While I see the parallel (I guess), I think it's a stretch to say that the line was intended to draw that parallel for the audience. Lucas' intent was simpler: to make a joke. The whole rescue sequence demonstrates Anakin and Obi-Wan's comraderie, hinted at but never really shown very well. When Obi-Wan says, "We're smarter than this!" it's a continuation of the light banter that's gone on throughout the rest of the sequence. Obi-Wan is genuinely disappointed in himself for being caught in so simple a trap, having throughout the course of his career as a Jedi, in fact, throughout the course of the movie thus far, made it through much more difficult trials.

As it stands, you may consider reworking your analysis of the parallel as, from where I stand, it seems you made more a list of very loosely connected contrasts, as opposed to a list of parallels. The only similarity seems to be that they are on a ship, and that ship has a bridge, and the Jedi are trying to accomplish something on said ship, in said bridge.

 

I'm of the mind that the trap Obi-wan senced was the whole Grievous/kidnapping thing. Not that palps had set it up or anything.

I think Anakin says "I sence counct Dooko"

and thats when Obi-wan says "I sence a trap"

Why else would Dooko be there if it was a streight forward kiddnapping by Grievous? They sence Dooko and know they're being led into a fight. Thats the trap, Palps is the bait, and they know it.

 

I agree with this. It doesn't hold particular relevance to this parallel, but I was thinking it is a general comment in reference to the changes since TPM.

Ah, but this is not just any two ships. This is the ship of the current (non-Sith) Seperatist leader of each movie. I appreciate your unagressive approach to your argument, but nothing I hear now can change my mind that Lucas intentionally reversed each movie.

please consider these parallels/contrasts :

Nute Gunray, TPM droid army leader - Killed by Anakin, as a Sith
General Greivous, ROTS droid army leader - Killed by Obi-Wan

Gunray's ship - destroyed by Anakin, from the inside, on his first real flight.
Greivous's ship - Anakin tries to keep it together long enough to bring it back in to Coruscant. One of the most impossible piloting maneuvres shown in the Saga.
Notice the contrast in the ship Anakin pilots; a Naboo fighter, The Invisible Hand.

Opening of TPM - Jedi head for Gunray's ship. They travel as ambassador's, intending to negotiate.
Opening of ROTS - Jedi head for Grievous's ship. They travel as Jedi (Jedi fighters), and take part in the full-scale battle before arriving. They are going there with the intention of fighting.

These are just a few of many.

You may notice that many filler scenes of ROTS are contrasts to TPM, whereas many important scenes contrast ROTJ.
If I was imagining all these links, don't you think I would see them in more movies than just TPM and ROTJ?

 

I don't necessarily think you're imagining links, just that I can't really see how those are links.

Nute Gunray, TPM droid army leader - Killed by Anakin, as a Sith
General Greivous, ROTS droid army leader - Killed by Obi-Wan

How is that a link?

Gunray's ship - destroyed by Anakin, from the inside, on his first real flight.
Greivous's ship - Anakin tries to keep it together long enough to bring it back in to Coruscant. One of the most impossible piloting maneuvres shown in the Saga.
Notice the contrast in the ship Anakin pilots; a Naboo fighter, The Invisible Hand.

Once again, how is this a link? Try for a minute to seperate yourself from your argument: it seems that you've done nothing but list plot points that have nothing to do with one another, other than that they are steps along Anakin's overall story. I say seperate yourself from your argument because its clear you understand your examples becausey ou clearly understand what you're talking about. I don't.

 

Yeah - I'm afraid I have to agree.
I see where you are coming from, but you are really reaching with some of those...

You could just as easily say something like -

TPM: Anakin is small/ he has to drop to the floor because Qui-Gon - a Jedi - instructs him to/ on a sparsely populated desert planet
ROTS: Anakin is tall/ he is told to rise by Sidious - who is a Sith/ on the galaxy's capital planet while it is raining

Wow!!!
Do you see what Lucas has done!!!

Look for connections, and you will see them everywhere.
Doesn't mean the director put them there.
In the case of most of the things you mention - I seriously doubt it...

 

rofl, okay I'll try to explain.
I do realise these plot points are in no way related storywise, btw.
I'm talking about the sort of... "bipolar" sense of the saga? Between ROTS and TPM, and between ROTJ and ROTS there are all these "opposite and equal" events. I know that sounds insane, but it could be one of the main reasons Lucas had such tight hold on production in the prequels.

good question.
It seems like a moral issue about Jedi and Sith. In ROTS we see an example of the Jedi handling Seperatists, and an example of the Sith handling Seperatists. The extremely contrasting Utapau and Mustafar missions, of Obi-Wan and Vader respectively.
But is Obi-Wan's act totally innocent? Sure, Grievous was a murderous warrior, and good in a fight. But was his duty under Sidious's command really that different from Nute's in TPM?
Nute's orders - invade Naboo, capture Amidala
Greivous's orders - invade Coruscant, capture Palpitine

Obi-Wan said it himself when he killed Greivous.
"So uncivilised."
Was he lowering himself morally somewhat by doing this? Is he that much better than Anakin, who killed the previous leader Nute Gunray in cold blood?
Of course, Anakin instantly comes of as fifteen times the evil of Obi-Wan. But if you think about it, they are both forced to do some pretty nasty things as a result of the War.

The plot points are not related in any way that changes the story. They are related to the mythical nature of the character Anakin. This one is much harder to explain, but I can make it a bit clearer. This is what looking at the contrast in the two scenes can show -

1) Clear demonstration that Anakin has made the transition from innocent boy to "chosen one". He goes from accidentally blowing up Nute's ship, to having Obi-Wan's, Palpitine's and R2's lives in his hands piloting half a ship. In TPM, although he saves the people on Naboo, he does it by no skill of his own. He is still the chosen one, but is not yet controlling his destiny in any way.

2) Symbolism that Anakin is not the same innocent person he once was. Piloting a Naboo ship on his first flight, now he is piloting Greivous's (although with good intentions).

3) Both scenes put Anakin in the current Seperatist leader's ship. In both scenes he is there as an enemy, yet in no real danger from the Seperatists themselves.
And I think it was intentional foreshadowing that he destroyed Nute's ship from the inside. His allegiance to Sidious will create the opening for the fall of the Empire.

4) The reason I mentioned the tricky piloting - Anakin contrastingly uses auto-pilot for the first half of the Naboo fighter flight. And this was after we heard Obi-Wan's ANH comment: "He was the greatest star-pilot in the galaxy."

 

Ok. I see then, what you're saying about the symbolism. The scenes are not so much linked by elements as they are indicative of changes in character and the evolution of the story as a whole. Gotcha.

Thread derailed. Back on track.

 

ya, i agree that obi-wan felt the trap created by dooku, not palpatine. he definitely was close, though, i know.

i was just reading in the 'i say patience' thread and i felt that anakin and obi-wan were sort of acting in front of palpatine.

ANAKIN: Ray shields!
OBI-WAN: Wait a minute, how'd this happen! We're smarter than this.
ANAKIN: Apparently not.
ANAKIN: I say . . . patience.
OBI-WAN: Patience! That's your plan, is it?

theyre sort of joking and keeping up a front, when they know they really want to confront general grievous if they possibly can. they were being surprisingly risky with the chancellor, thats the way i see it now.

 

The "We're smarter than this" is in reference to the fact that Obi-wan realizes that they just stumbled into a trap. That they should've realized it sooner, before getting out of the turobshaft. Even without the Force to guide them, they should've realized that Grievous would want to stop them from escaping. Such an elementry trap shouldn't have been able to catch them unawares.

It's a sign that the Dark Side is growing even stronger and Obi-wan's growing too confident.

 

*****
The "We're smarter than this" is in reference to the fact that Obi-wan realizes that they just stumbled into a trap. That they should've realized it sooner, before getting out of the turobshaft. Even without the Force to guide them, they should've realized that Grievous would want to stop them from escaping. Such an elementry trap shouldn't have been able to catch them unawares.
*****

I completely disagree. I believe they wanted to be caught. Why would two cuffed Jedi mock there capture, and Obi-Wan Go "AND THIS time you won't escape!" Being caught was the easilest way to gain axcess to GG. Obi's line was just playing to the ruse.

The 3 Matters to end the war all were on that ship:Save the Chancellor, Defeat Dooku & GG. They accomplished the first 2, and as Obi's says in Clones "We have a job to do!"

 

GENERAL GRIEVOUS: Ahhhh, Jedi scum . . .
OBI-WAN: Anakin, try not to upset him. We have a job to do.
GENERAL GRIEVOUS: Your lightsabers will make a fine addition to my collection.
OBI-WAN: Not this time. And this time you won't escape.
ANAKIN: Artoo.

anakin and obi-wan were springing the trap as part of their own trap, the way i see it, but maybe they really didnt *EDIT* mean to get caught in the ray shield, idk.

the line makes more sense to me, if they purposely get caught to confront grievous, but its hard to say for sure.

i agree with Ramses85
Being caught was the easilest way to gain axcess to GG. Obi's line was just playing to the ruse.

what im thinking about is, anakin and obi-wan are 'playing the ruse' in front of palpatine. so obi-wan (unlike anakin) doesnt trust palpatine, it seems. obi-wan senses the trap (by dooku and grievous) and distrusts palpatine, so he's pretty close to solving the whole thing.

 

I think playing the ruse in front of Palpy accomplishes to things. First for GG's benefit of course, and Second there mission was to save Palpy only. Like Yoda said Obi has QG difiance so he wanted to go after GG, and getting 'caught' gave him liabity to do so.

 

DId the novel touch on this at all? I just don't see enough evidence in the movie to show that Obi intended to get captured.