Obi-Wan once thought as you do...or did he?

In Return of the Jedi, when Vader and Luke are talking before heading to the Death Star, Luke mentions that there is still a good person in Vader, but Vader cuts him off with the line, "Obi-Wan once thought as you did," in essense telling Luke that Anakin is dead, there is only the Dark Side in vader and that Luke should just give up this foolish notion of ever bringing the good man that was Anakin back.

At first I thought that this line was simply Vader telling Luke to give up and accept his fate, but this conversation would start bringing out those long dorment feelings of good in Vader. But now, I've begun thinking that Vader knew all along that what he was doing was wrong, but had buried those feeling in some sort of self pity.

Suppose Vader literally believed that Obi-Wan also thought there was good in him (at least until the fight on Mustafar). This would have to be some sort of self-indulgant delusion on Anakin's part. If he really believes Obi-Wan once thought there was good left in Anakin, where did Obi-Wan show it?

The only time we see Obi-Wan thinking that Anakin has good in him, and even this is stretching it a bit, is in the Jedi Temple while looking at the security hologram. Obi-Wan is in disbelief that Anakin is killing the other Jedi, but once the shock wears off and he accepts it, he never mentions Anakin as being capable of redemption. Yoda comes right out to say that Anakin is dead, onle Vader remains and must be stopped. At Padme's apartment, Obi-Wan never says Anakin can be redeemed, only that his is a threat to both himself and the galaxy.

On Mustafar, Padme says that Anakin is a good person and needs to stay on that path and Anakin rejects her. At no point does Obi-Wan ever mention Anakin had gone down the wrong path and must turn back. At no point did Obi-Wan say, "hey, look at what you have done. Is this what you want to be? Come back to the light." All Obi-Wan can do is acknowledge that he had failed Anakin during his training and that he loved Anakin like a brother. Even when Padme is dying she says to Obi-Wan that Anakin still has good in him and Obi-Wan doesn't responds with so much as an, "I know."

When Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Bail are discussing the future of the twins, neither Obi-Wan or Yoda ever even discuss the possibility of redeeming Anakin/Vader.

When Obi-Wan fights Vader on the Death Star Obi-Wan just calls Vader a "master of evil." At no point in this fight is redemption mentioned.

When Luke is being trained, Yoda's teachings on the subject are pretty much black and white: "once you start down the path to the dark side, forever will it dominate you...as it did the Emperor's apprentice."

When Obi-Wan and Luke talk after Yoda has died, all Obi-Wan wants Luke to do is to fight Vader and dismisses completely the idea of Anakin being redeemed. All along, the only two people who seem to think there is any good left in Vader is Padme and Luke.

So when Vader tells Luke that Obi-Wan once thought Anakin could be redeemed, was he really trying to rationalize his fall from grace to himself, and if so where did he come up with this notion of Obi-Wan thinking Anakin could be saved because at no point in the saga do I see either Yoda or Obi-Wan thinking Anakin could be redeemed.

 

Obi-Wan did believe in Anakin before their fight. Before he left for Utapua, he clearly stated his feelings about his former Padawan. He acknowlegded Anakin's skills, and said he would be a fine Master. I do believe Anakin realized Obi-Wan had faith in him, but his mind was troubled about Padme. On Mustafar, even though Obi-Wan doesn't flat-out say "Come back! I love you!" he does tell Anakin how he has "become the very thing he swore to destroy" and hinted at the fact that Anakin should come back to the Republic, to democracy. Obi-Wan did take his duty seriously, as would any Jedi, but the simple fact that he even tried to communicate with Anakin shows how much it hurt him. He even tried talking to him in the middle of the fight.

When Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" I believe he meant that before he went to the Dark Side, and I think there is enough content in the films that proves so.

 

It's open to interpretation, but IMO Obi-Wan felt that Anakin could be redeemed, even on Mustafar. In his own way, he pleads with Anakin to come back before their duel and even warns Anakin not to try his ultimately fateful leap. At some point, maybe after "I hate you" or between trilogies, Obi-Wan starts to believe Anakin is lost forever. At least that's my opinion.

There's a long thread on this in the prequel forum (it's called "There's good in him" or something like that).

 

Sorry, but I disagree, ObiWan is committed to killing Anakin once he sees the video of him killing the younglings in the jedi temple. Of course he picks Sidious first to fight, cause he rather not fight his old buddy, but once Yoda tells him he is taking on Palps, ObiWan goes right to Padme.

Once he talks to Padme on Coruscant, he does not say anything about turning him back, or there is still good in him. His exact words to Padme, "He has become a very grave threat." Padme replies, "You're gonna kill him aren't you?" Kenobi doesn't answer, that tells me he is going to do it, he just can't get the words out to say it in front of Padmes face.

It doesn't jive with ROTJ, cause Kenobi never once says to Padme that they could bring him back to the good side, and even on Mustafar he never really tries to bring Anakin back, just some heated dialogue, and then he draws first weapon.

Sorry guys, I don't think ObiWan once thought as Luke did, cause nothing in ROTS even remotely shows it. It was Padme who thought there was still good in Anakin, but she lost the will to live, but that is a whole other topic.

 

From the RotJ novel:

Ben shook his head remorsefully. "I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It can't be done. He is more machine, now, than man -- twisted, and evil."

"When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought...your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever---he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will..."

But in RotS, we don't see any sign of Obi-Wan trying to "dissuade" Anakin from anything. Maybe there is something like that in the RotS novel but I have not read it so can't say. In the movie, it seems the most that we see is regret and pain on Obi-Wan's part, sadness at what Anakin has become.

I think it's just one of those OT/PT discontinuities that slipped through. At least, that is how I see it.

 

Even if Obi Wan did think that Anakin could be redeemed, why would Vader show this sort of clarity? His mind is meant to be twisted when he faces Obi Wan: "you've turned her against me!" I suppose, in TESB, when Luke's rejection of his offer to "rule the galaxy as father and son" gave him pause, echoing Padme's own rejection of the same offer in ROTS, he became a little reflective, and maybe saw that Obi Wan was trying to reason with him all those years ago on Mustafar. No? I think it's possible. Vader might also be setting up a bit of a strawman argument here, trying to dent Luke's confidence, simply because Anakin himself doesn't believe he is worthy of redemption. "Hey, Luke, my former friend and mentor, and your former friend and mentor, thought I could be saved, but he was wrong, and I'm really a nasty piece of work, so I'll let the Emperor tempt you, I'll whoop you with my lightsabre and even I'll get in on the taunting act myself, and then you'll soon accept your destiny and mine." I definitely think that some of that was going on.

As for Obi Wan himself? Best case scenario: he is morbidly furtive. To his credit, he does try and reason with Anakin, and it's only after he hears Anakin labelling him an enemy, prompting him to declare, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," that he draws his lightsabre. Even as they're rafting down lava, Obi Wan screams at Anakin that Palpatine is evil, infuriated that his former brother could fall under his spell, with the implication being that Obi Wan is still trying to reach him. Then he gives Anakin a way out: "don't try it!" If Obi Wan doesn't want to kill him at that point, there's a glimmer of hope, how ever small. But Anakin screws the pooch by jumping and defying his master one last time. That's when Obi Wan finally breaks. "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." Were. Loved. Past tense. Then Obi Wan completes the act by turning his back and walking away. The symbolism couldn't be clearer. So, from a certain point of view, Obi Wan tried reaching Anakin while his eyes were upon him, but the moment he looked away, he was no longer watching for Anakin's soul; he thought it eviscerated in those hellish flames and what emerged was "more machine than man, twisted and evil". That's how I see it.

 

They stand for a moment, the Vader extinguishes the lightsaber.

LUKE: Come with me.

VADER: Obi-Wan once thought as you do.

Luke steps close to Vader, then stops. Vader is still.

VADER: You don't know the power of the dark side. I
must obey my master.

Although it is often believed the line means Obi-Wan thought there was still good in Vader, with the completion of the Saga there is no reason why the line "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" can not simply mean that the light side is stronger.

In this context, Vader is saying Kenobi once believed the light side was stronger, but like Luke he didn't know the power of the darkside and hence why Vader cannot turn back.

 

I don't think Kenobi believed Anakin was capable of being redeemed when he faced him on Mustafar. He shows up with no attempt to dissuade him. Kenobi and Yoda both believed that once one turned to the Dark Side, they could not turn back. Which is what Yoda tells Luke in TESB.

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

I think the more fitting thing for Vader to tell Luke would have been,"Your mother once thought as you do." Since she was the only one besides Luke that believed there was still good in Anakin.

 

In the ROTS novel, there are two reasons why ObiWan doesn't kill Anakin.

1. The jedi code forbids anyone from killing anyone defenseless, and ObiWan is the ultimate by the book jedi, and that is why I love his character in the PT. In the novel, once Anakin is burning up, that is when ObiWan figures he will burn to death.

2. Also in the book, once Anakin starts burning, ObiWan senses Palpatine's ship arriving, and it clearly says that it is time to help Padme get the heck out of Mustafar.

Now I know books are very different than movies, but for the prequels, I always liked referring to the books, cause they explained alot more than we see in the movie.

 

Is this a discontinuity or just another one of Obi-Wan's lies/point of views? He knows Luke wants to believe that there is good in Vader, but Obi-Wan also beleives the only way Luke can win is to simply kill Vader. For Yoda and Obi-Wan, there really is no option of redeeming Anakin.

I think this is more of Obi-Wan trying to get Luke to do what Yoda and Obi-Wan think needs to be done. Only Luke decides there is still good in his father and actively tries to bring it out.

 

Obi-Wan is a Jedi and therefore it is his duty to destroy the Sith. Whether it be his brother, his friend or a former Padawan (and Anakin happens to be all these things). The reason Kenobi doesn't say anything about actually killing Anakin is because (IMO) he can't believe the reality of it all either. That he is actualy going to kill Anakin.

I do believe Obi-Wan wasn't flat-out trying to bring Anakin back, but he was sure fighting to prove how wrong Anakin truly was, which shows Obi-Wan did care what happened to him. It wasn't just like "Oh he turned bad, and I'm going to forget about all these years we spent together."

Although I do believe Obi-Wan lost total faith in him after Mustafar.

 

I find it strange when people READ TOO MUCH into what is said. Vader simply meant Kenobi once believed in him, as Luke does now. (IN ROTJ THAT IS.)

 

But the whole point of Luke and Vader's conversation up to that point that that Luke believes there is good in him and he can be turned back. At which point Vader says Obi-Wan once thought like Luke does. It makes no sense for Vader to think that Obi-Wan believed in Anakin as a Jedi when the rest of the conversation revolves around Luke pleading for Vader to come back from the dark side.

 

I agree.
Obi-Wan did not believe Anakin could turn back. He went to Mustafar for one purpose, and that was to kill him. As has already been pointed out, when Padme said "you're going to kill him....aren't you??" He wouldn't answer. That says it right there. Also, even though Obi-Wan is a by-the-book Jedi, I believe that if he thought there was still good in Anakin, he would have told Yoda as much, and tried a different solution.
Obi-Wan left Anakin there to burn. He figured he was already dead anyway.......

 

I don't believe Obi-Wan had any faith in Anakin after he left him there to burn, but before the actual fight started, I do think he had a little faith. A little bit of hope left.

 

Agree strongly.

She also used the words "Come away with me" which goes well with Luke's "Come with me".

 

I think Lucas wasn't sure about Luke & Leia's mother so he used Obi-Wan in the line here because Obi-Wan did once think this AND Vader thinks Obi-Wan is Luke's mentor(he never mentions Yoda which is strange). Obi-Wan is a powerful symbol for Luke, it like Vader is saying "Hey, the guy who taught you everything he knows taught me, was like a father to me and if he couldn't get me to turn back, why should you?" If Palpatine really wanted to piss Luke off(and Vader probably), instead of saying "Fulfill your destiny" speech when Luke cuts off Vader's hand, he should have said "Kill him, you know, young Skywalker, HE KILLED YOUR MOTHER IN HIS ANGER, no doubt, your sister will be next." I don't think Luke would have been able to overcome this but if he did, it would show a much stronger stance from Luke, like he was saying, "These things will hurt me but I can't go to the Dark Side". I was always a little bother by what the Emperor says. I feel if he would have shut up, then Luke wouldn't have had time to think about joining the Emperor and maybe would have acted on his feelings of hate and anger at the hurting of his sister but the above line would work as well.

 

They should bring McDiarmid (he could put the Sids makeup on, one last time) and Jones in to make these changes REAL.

Can someone start a petition?

 

As princessleia911 pointed out. There were a lot of lines in the OT that could have been changed. If we continue to rely on the "they should go back and fix it" I doubt much of the original content will be left. Besides, the thing that gets to me the most is that we want the OT to be "fixed" when it was indeed the original project. I say leave it the way it is, and enjoy how you first watched it.

 

Sorry, but I disagree, ObiWan is committed to killing Anakin once he sees the video of him killing the younglings in the jedi temple.

I'm not so sure. If this is so, why didn't he just jump out of the ship and go at him? He seemed to be trying to talk Anakin down. Even at the end of the duel he begged Anakin not to be stupid and fall right into the trap he set for him.

 

Because Padme was right there, and he was afraid if he went at Anakin she would be hurt. But in reality, Anakin choked her anyway, so it didn't really matter either way.

In the ROTS novel, ObiWan tries to reason with Anakin for the sake of Padme's health. He asks him if he can just take Padme to safety and get her help, but Anakin is not budging.

Just because ObiWan didn't go right at Anakin, by no means is a hint that he didn't want to kill him. Did you ever see shootouts in any Clint Eastwood movies in the old west? ObiWan had to be smart and calm to kill Anakin, not agressive and stupid.

 

Obi-Wan DOES try to reason with Anakin, IMO. He loses faith completely during the duel:

Obi-Wan: I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.
Anakin: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
Anakin: From my point of wiew the Jedi are evil!
Obi-Wan: Then you ARE lost!

In my opinion, Obi-Wan is clearly trying to convince Anakin of his master's evil ways ton get him to turn back, but realizes it's futile. The dialogue also seems to hint that it was at that exact moment that Obi-Wan's hope in Anakin's redemption vanished.

 

He was tying to reason with him, while they fought. Why would he do what if he didn?t
hade any hope that it was some goodness still was left in Anakin? He hade a few
opportunities under the whole fight to kill Anakin especially when Anakin is jumping
over him on the floating plat form. Anakin almost losing his balance then he?s landing.
And Obi-Wan is just standing there Waiting for him to regain balance.
He even did give Anakin a chance then he begged him not to jump after him.

And that?s I think what Vader meant with ?Obi-Wan once thought as you did once ?

Then Luke tells him that "his father is trule dead".He finally is begining to
understand what Obi-Wans was right then he told him he had let himself become
the evil he hade been fighting against under the clone wars.

 

Then Luke tells him that "his father is trule dead".He finally is begining to understand what Obi-Wans was right then he told him he had let himself become the evil he hade been fighting against under the clone wars.

But were Luke and Obi-Wan completely right in the end? Sometimes, it doesn't pay to be absolute.

 

There was a post about this a year ago, I think. Someone said that it would be great if we knew what Vader was thinking in this scene, and they suggested maybe Vader was thinking of Padme - the one person who did try to pull Anakin back. It was suggested that the memory of Padme was too painful for Vader to even mention her name, and so he referred to a name Luke would recognize, Obi-Wan.

I thought the rationalization was off, but the idea that Vader was really thinking of Padme in this scene intrigued me. Why would he say Obi-Wan? Why couldn't he say HER name?