Obi-Wan's Failure to Teach Anakin - will we see this in Episode III?

I was on the os today, and just reading info on various characters from the movies (what can I say, I was extremeley bored at work today), and here is a blurb regarding everyone's favirote desert hermit:

The outbreak of the Clone Wars saw him promoted to a General in the Army of the Republic, with thousands of clone troopers at his command. He and his Padawan, Anakin Skywalker, were dispatched to many missions, and both came to be regarded Republic heroes of that terrible conflict. . .
It is all the more tragic then that he should be responsible, in part, for the fall of the Jedi and the Republic. He would later say it was his successes that fueled the pride that would trigger his own downfall, and the loss of his student.


Now it says that Obi falls. We have seen him before trip to the darkside during tpm. Do you think that we will see Obi falls & redeems himself before Anakin falls into the darkside. And how does this relate to the dual? It was often assumed, and I have made this assumption myself, that Anakin falls before the dual, and Obi initially tries to redeem his former Padawan. What if it is actually reversed, and Anakin begins the dual to redeem Obi. During the dual Anakin also falls to the darkside. At which point Obi realizes what has happened to both himself and Aankin. Obi-Wan then tries to redeem them both, but Anakin fell much further than Obi? I think if something like this did happen, not say it will, it will make Anakin's fall that much more tragic.


But can Ben really fall ?

Open to OS and LFL information. G_M

 

I think that's just referring to his failure as a teacher to keep Anakin on the light side.

 

Once again, Ghost, our minds think alike.

I've been thinking that we haven't seen enough in the PT to justify Ben's sadness and regret in the OT - Ben says his arrogance is to blame, thinking he could teach Anakin as well as Yoda...WTH?

Obi-Wan obviously has trained Anakin well enough to be a kick-ass Jedi...could better training really have prevented Anakin from falling?

I could never see Obi-Wan actually turning to the Dark Side, unlike Dooku or Anakin.

But though I think he will try to turn Anakin back, I doubt he will be blameless in Episode III.

 

This is an interesting theory. The idea of arrogance in the Jedi was broached in AOTC, so maybe that was foreshadowing of what's to come in III.

I can't see Obi-Wan falling completely to the Dark Side, but an interesting thought.

 

It is all the more tragic then that he should be responsible, in part, for the fall of the Jedi and the Republic. He would later say it was his successes that fueled the pride that would trigger his own downfall, and the loss of his student.

I agree that "downfall" doesn't literally mean fall, in the Anakin sense of the word. "His own downfall" refers to his hiding out as a hermit- the end of his life as a Jedi. In those 20 years he's had plenty of time to brood.

Even as things stand now, I can see how Obi-Wan gets to the point of blaming himself so much- he doesn't have to do anything so drastic as briefly fall to the Dark Side. Not to mention the fact that it would be completely out of his character.

He trained Anakin to be a kick ass fighter, tactician etc., but he didn't teach him how to be a human being. He never took into account that Anakin wasn't a normal Jedi and would have to be dealt with differently. All Obi-Wan saw was surface Anakin, who was excelling as a Jedi, and never saw the turmoil on the inside, which gradually consumed him. Nobody saw this Palpatine thing coming either. I'm sure he blames himself for all of this, although there's really a greater fault- the Jedi as a whole and the Jedi way of life. Obi-Wan had no way of knowing, no one did. He probably also blames himself for not bringing Anakin back during the Duel as well- I absolutely agree with that.

 

I could see Obi-Wan going to the edge of the darkside trying to bring Anakin back, but I couldn't see him falling all the way and coming back. Interesting theory though...

 

But that's just it, RS_77 - I think you've identified a couple of great points with Obi-Wan thinking he's at fault; however, isn't Anakin really to blame for his failure?

Obi-Wan tried to teach Anakin patience, he tried to get Anakin to focus, but he couldn't. Considering Obi-Wan had never taught a Padawan learner before, he did a pretty good job.

I just can't see the Jedi blaming Obi-Wan in any way - and how is he responsible for what happens to the Republic? What I think (and I think Ghost as well) is that we simply haven't seen anything really, so far in the PT, to make Obi-Wan look as bad as he feels in the OT.

Of course, Ani becoming Darth Vader, the Emperor triumphant, the Republic crumbling and the Jedi Order being Purged would be a downer for anybody.

He's the only one who's done anything to stop the spread of evil in TPM and AOTC (I'm exaggerating, but still).

What is Obi-Wan's arrogance - knowing better than Anakin when he is ready to take the Trials? He DOES know better - Anakin thinks he's the greatest, and probably has for the last few years. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the maturity and experience to back up his prodigious talent.

You're saying the Jedi way of life is to blame for Anakin's downfall? Partially, I suppose - but only because they didn't follow their own rules.

Anyway, I've been thinking more about Obi-Wan saying "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda".

I've argued before that Anakin has to have a chance to do away with Palps - he has to have the same choice as Luke (basically). He IS the Chosen One - therefore I believe in Episode III he has the chance to restore Balance to the Force - he will (most likely) kill Dooku, and he should have a chance to kill Palps.

When Anakin reaches that choice and makes the wrong decision, perhaps that is where Obi-Wan's regret and guilt arise. "If only I had trained him better". It would be very like Obi-Wan to blame himself.

Anyway, interesting topic.

 

I think Obi-Wan just has the opinion that if he had trained Anakin better than Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader and the fact that he didn't follow the Council's initial decision.

 

Very well stated there Garth. We know that this is going to be a very dark movie. We know this will not be a very 'traditional movie' with the good guys winning at the end of the movie. We know that Anakin falls to the darkside. However we have to remember aklot of characters will also fail, characters that we have known for 2, or or 5 movies. Obi fails the republic, when his padawan learner falls. The near total annihilation is ultimately the failing of Yoda, and Mace. The fact that the very republic she loves, is done away with by the man she loves, is a failure of Padme. This movie is going to be a shot to the gut for many of us.

 

I didn't mean to sound like Obi-Wan is completely at fault- he's not. Anakin really has only himself to blame.

But I do think Obi-Wan blames himself for not training Anakin correctly... for not taking into account his special circumstances. He also blames himself for not being a good enough Jedi and, alternately, caring too much about being a good Jedi and not enough about being a good person. But he's being too hard on himself. I think the best explaination is from the ROTJ novelization:

That Obi-Wan's hubris could have caused his father's fall was horrible. Horrible because of what his father had needlessly become, horrible because Obi-Wan wasn't perfect, wasn't even a perfect Jedi, horrible because the dark side could strike so close to home, could turn such right so wrong. Darth Vader must yet have a spark of Anakin Skywalker deep inside. "There is still good in him."


And I don't think the Jedi blame Obi-Wan at all. I don't even think they blame themselves as a whole... although their lack of foresight does play a role in all this.

 

The Jedi don't blame Obi-Wan. They can't...they're all dead.

 

Well they don't all die in Episode III... the purge takes many years. Logic assumes that there are still very many Jedi alive when Obi-Wan and Anakin duel.

 

Yeah, but in terms of the conversation about Obi-Wan's regrets and blaming himself, and being blamed by the Jedi...by the time Ep III ends, we can assume that the Jedi Order has ceased to exist. So, while there might be a few disgruntled Jedi spread across the galaxy muttering curses about Obi-Wan under their breath, there is no institutional blame going on, because the institution has been destroyed.

That's a big part of Obi-Wan's regret and sorrow...he's just about the only one left to mourn the Jedi. Not only have all of his friends been killed, but his entire way of life has been wiped out, almost like it never even existed. We can see by Luke's lack of knowledge of the Force and the Jedi in ANH that not only were the Jedi wiped out, but their memory was mostly wiped out, too. And Obi-Wan blames himself.

By the time the Jedi Order even realize that anything is even wrong, it is too late to blame or regret anything. Having been decimated by the Clone Wars, what is left of them is probably wiped out pretty quickly in Ep III, with just a few stragglers left to be hunted down by Vader and his henchmen. There are probably only a handful of Jedi (Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan?) who ever actually know the truth about what happened to Obi-Wan and his apprentice. Most would be dead, and the others would be scattered and in hiding, until Vader eventually tracked them down. And I suspect that those who did know the truth about Skywalker probably kept it to themselves. It would be a deep dark secret for those who survived.

 

Oh, FINE, stormcloud. Did you want to pick apart any of my other arguments while you're at it?

Yes, most of the Jedi, if not almost all, would be dead and gone by this point.

I guess I'll say that all the dead Jedi, being One with the Force, don't blame Obi-Wan.

Oh yeah, more lines - Obi-Wan IS concerned about Anakin - he realizes his talent but worries about his arrogance, etc.

Yoda and Mace basically say, yeah, but that's the breaks, kid.

In the deleted scene, Mace specifically tells Obi-Wan, "you must have faith that Anakin will choose the right path" - this really seems to take any blame out of Obi-Wan's hands and onto Anakin or maybe the Will of the Force.

 

Was I the only one who thought it strange that it was revealed in AOTC that Dooku was Yoda's Padawan learner?

Consider Obi-Wan's comments in the OT that he thought he could train Anakin "as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

So Yoda trains a very gifted Jedi who turns to the Sith 60 years later, while Obi-Wan trains a Padawan who is the Chosen One, who is his first student, and who was technically too old to be trained. Oh yeah, and he turns to the Dark Side when he's still young.

So how bad does Obi-Wan look right now? Not too bad, really - I wonder if he and Anakin are going to have a huge conflict of wills.

"You haven't learned anything, Anakin."

 

I think Obi-Wan's line about thinking he could train Anakin as well as Yoda has to do with youngling-level training. Every Jedi gets trained by Yoda when they're really young. Anakin, however, was too old when he was brought into the Jedi Order to participate in this youngling-level training with Yoda. Still needing all that basic training one would get at youngling-level, Obi-Wan took it upon himself to teach all that that Yoda normally taught ever youngling to Anakin himself. It is this youngling-level material that Obi-Wan thought he could teach Anakin as well as Yoda taught every other young Jedi.

 

Was Dooku Yoda's padawan as Ob1 is to Anakin or was Yoda refering to Dooku being trained by him as a youngling? I thought Yoda didn't train apprentices after they were finished with the youngling stage but I may be wrong.

 

Honestly, I think that for Obi-Wan to blame himself so heavily in the OT Anakin's turn has to come as somewhat of a surprise. It means a lot more if Anakin and Obi-Wan are friends and fellow Jedi Knights at the beginning of III- working together as equals. Obi-Wan thinks everything is hunky dory (Anakin is a major hero of the CW, but undoubtedly cocky about it as always, that's normal) and has no idea what Palpatine is doing to him until it's too late. Then he blames himself for buying into the facade that Anakin was fine and that Palpatine was a good guy. If anyone should have been suspicious of Palpy, it was Obi-Wan... but he never caught it... and I'm sure it doubly weighs on his soul.

 

I think Obi-Wan will realize about halfway through the film that he has failed, and has lost Anakin to the Dark Side. He'll attempt to find him and turn him back to the light, as Vader told Luke he did in ROTJ - "Obi-Wan once thought as you did."

I doubt that there is one particular flaw in Obi-Wan's training of Anakin that will surface. And in fact, I do not think that Obi-Wan failed, because I believe it was the destiny of the Force to have Anakin fall. Anakin falls to the Dark Side in order to bring balance to the Force, which has been skewed to the Light Side. Then Vader returns to the Light Side to return balance to the Force once again. So it wasn't Obi-Wan's fault, it was inevitable.

 

I agree stormcloud.

At some point Obi-Wan is going to realize (as is everyone else) that Palpatine is a Very Bad Man and has corrupted Anakin... whether or not those realizations happen at the same time, I don't know. Of course, Anakin will probably be the last to recognize Palpy's influence and may fight that accusation until he takes his lava bath. Obi-Wan, without a doubt, will try and turn Anakin back to the Light (I think that's how the Duel starts)... because there is still a glimmer of hope that he will not turn. But although Obi-Wan may eventually "win" the Duel, his biggest failure is not convincing Anakin to stay Light.

 

I don't think it's Obi-Wan failure as a teacher as to why Anakin goes to the darkside. Anakin even cries in Aotc after he tells Padme he slaughted the tuskan raiders that, "he was better than that," and basically that he sould have known better.

I have never once believed Anakin's fall was Obi-Wan's fault. Look in Aotc, he is already being manipulated by Palpatine and his views in the picnic scene with Padme reflect that. Obi-Wan will feel at fault because it is the greatest failure to lose a Padawan to the darkside.

I think the problem with Anakin is that he wants so much (he wants to be with Padme but at the same time, he wants more power as a Jedi). He's conflicted, and all of his emotional turmoil eventually comes to blow in Episode III.

 

Return of the Jedi is the only film that ever treats Obi-Wan as if he's to blame--and only then because he's racked with self-guilt. But blaming yourself and actually being guilty are too different things. Anakin makes it all the way to Jedi Knight, and then chooses to join the Dark Side. I'd say the failure is entirely Anakin's.

But I do think Obi-Wan blames himself for not training Anakin correctly... for not taking into account his special circumstances.

Anakin's circumstances don't enter into how you train him. That he started at 9 doesn't mean he should be allowed to visit his mother. That he started late doesn't mean he needs to be trained in "how" to control his emotions. There is no how, just as, as Yoda put it, there is now why. You just do it. Obi-Wan has worked on Anakin's temper and impulsiveness in Episode II. And it certainly doesn't mean Anakin should be able to marry.

 

Good points, all - I too don't think Obi-Wan is to blame for Anakin's fall - there's many forces at work in the PT, and Obi-Wan's educational skills or lack thereof is just one factor.

But Lucas really does set up Obi-Wan as a bit of a failure, even in ANH - ooh, Obi-Wan's student turned to the Dark Side and killed Luke's father?

Now, Obi-Wan obviously loves the "certain point of view" argument.

I've argued before that Yoda and Ben do NOT want Luke to kill Vader - they want him to confront him - the Chosen One is the only one that can restore Balance.

So is Obi-Wan's talk of failure and pride to deflect any negative feelings Luke has towards Vader, and to reinforce the belief that there is still good in him?

(i.e., "It's my fault he turned, Luke - I couldn't teach him well enough.")

 

Oh I don't think Obi-Wan is really to blame... at least not anymore than anyone else. Everyone had a hand in Anakin's fall, although Anakin himself is ultimately responsible. But I do think that Obi-Wan really blames himself for what happened. If anyone could have caught it in time, it was him.

Anakin's circumstances did matter. He shouldn't have been allowed to marry or anything like that, but adjusting the training slightly when he was younger would have been a good idea. He should have been taught to deal with his mother's absence, but no one at the Temple understands what that's like for a child so they didn't know what to do. His physical/Force training could have been the same, but he should have received some kind of extra instruction on how to deal with emotional attachments. Just telling him to forget completely about his mother, ignore his dreams and move on wasn't quite the best way to deal with him. If any Padawan has a specific emotional/psychological problem like Anakin they should all be given special attention in that area. Obviously if the Jedi succeeded in helping Anakin in that respect he wouldn't have immediately fallen in love with Padme and wouldn't have been plagued by nightmares about his mother. Although if this was the will of the Force then this argument is moot.

 

The remark Obi-Wan makes about thinking he could teach Anakin as well as Yoda could have is pretty cryptic. Moreover, doesn't Yoda have about as big a failure in Dooku? Both Obi-Wan and Yoda apparently train Jedi who become Sith, so if anything it's just a matter of degrees.