Official Destiny's Way Thread (Traitor, Destiny's Way Spoilers)

Yes! Finally, it took long enough for old Nommy to get his just-desersts. I hope they get rid of him in the next book...

 

My heart tells me that Nom has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before this is over.

 

I have not read the LOTR, but for some reason Nom Anor always has reminded me of Gollum. How, he has done Evil yet not been repaid in kind for some reason. In SbS Jacen has the opprotunity to at least shoot at him but he does not at the intervention of vergere. in FOTR Frodo expresses the wish that Bilbo should have killed Gollum when he had the chance, yet Gandolf says something about how Gollum still has a role to play. In my mind these are a very set of circunstances with a probable outcome of Nom Anor somehow helping the NR and Jedi, which BTW should be working together in all aspects of Civil Government. I may eat my computer if I don't get DW by tomorrow.


It sounds great. Oh yeah, I correctly predicted a certain death about a week ago. I AM A GENIUS!!!

 

I've said from the outset (in Gath's NJO Resolutions thread in fact) that Nom Anor will find himself aiding our heroes whether he likes it or not. He's actually tolerating plenty of things about the infedils that the Yuuzhan Vong abhor.

After coming to the GFFA in advance to spy and stir up some trouble, Nom Anor has assimilated himself to the mannerisms and beliefs of the GFFA more than he would like to admit.

 

i share some of c19's concerns about the mixed Council idea, though i think it definitely has some merit.

the main problem that i see here is that the Jedi Council has two main sets of functions, one of which is more suited to cooperative governance with the NR than the other.

on one hand, they have what might be called their external role, which mainly involves their field activity. it seems appropriate and wise to me to offer the NR a significant role in determining the appropriate role of the Jedi in diplomacy and peacekeeping activities. if the Jedi are going to involve themselves in galactic affairs, they need to play ball with the legitimate civilian authorities. they can't expect the government to tolerate a couple of hundred armed, heavily trained, and very very dangerous individuals to roam around enforcing justice by their own private standards and answerable only to their own authority figures. that's ridiculous. as long as the Jedi have some kind of morality clause in their relationship with the NR where they can't be ordered to violate the Jedi Code, i don't see any problem with that.

however, the Jedi Council also has an internal function with regard to the Jedi Order, which basically relates to organizing the training of new Jedi and overseeing the recognition of advancement through ranks. all good intentions and political considerations aside, this is not something that non-Jedi are really qualified to do. they really have no way to judge whether or not a given being is ready to become a Jedi Knight or a Jedi Master since they don't have that training themselves. to use real-life analogies, you can't get a doctorate in a given field of study unless you're approved to do so by people who already have their PhD's. the idea that non-Jedi would be involved in this process is somewhat troubling, especially if you start thinking about politics entering into decisions like whether or not to approve someone for being a Jedi Master. imagine an unqualified Jedi being granted Master status because it's convenient to do so politically, or a qualified Jedi being denied the same status because it's inconvenient.

also, i may have missed this, but who exactly is on the new High Council?

 

i am very happy with this particular resolution in the NJO. It mixes the ideals and guidance of the Jedi with the elected officials own agendas. This seems to me to be the best course for all to take. We get the input of the Jedi into civil matters and the Civil Gov. gets input and oversight of but not control of the Jedi Order. Now, hopefully there can be a more united front using Jedi and elected officials.

 

dizfactor -

On the OTHER hand -- having the NR integrated with the Jedi Order in terms of a HIGH Council (there is no Jedi council, per se, just a high council advising the CoS) is that not only can the NR gov't have say and sway over the Jedi activities, but hte JEDI can have say and sway over the *NR* activities (such as the case of Alpha Red)... going forward, it would help be almost a moral compass to the NR...

 

On the OTHER hand -- having the NR integrated with the Jedi Order in terms of a HIGH Council (there is no Jedi council, per se, just a high council advising the CoS) is that not only can the NR gov't have say and sway over the Jedi activities, but hte JEDI can have say and sway over the *NR* activities (such as the case of Alpha Red)... going forward, it would help be almost a moral compass to the NR...

that's a very good point. in general, i'm in favor of the NR and the Jedi working together under some kind of joint governance in most respects. it's really just NR involvement in issues regarding Jedi teachings and instruction that gets me twitchy.

 

that's a very good point. in general, i'm in favor of the NR and the Jedi working together under some kind of joint governance in most respects. it's really just NR involvement in issues regarding Jedi teachings and instruction that gets me twitchy.

But it's not like the Jedi are going to be having direct input on, say, NR fighter combat training... nor will the NR likely have direct input on Jedi teaching techniques (beyond, say, "No, you can't steal Force-sensitive three year olds from their homes...")

At least, this was the impression I got from listening to the audio CD anyways...

 

Speaking as one who has read the book, those of you who are opposing non-Jedi on the Council are doing so mistakenly:

?The old Jedi had personified the rule of order and the will of the state. But they were also secretive, and removed from the people and their representatives. Their link to the outside was through the Supreme Chancellor, and once aq malevolent figure like Palpatine became Chancellor, with his disciple among the Jedi, the Jedi were cut off by the secret enemy, isolated, and destroyed.

The Jedi should never be so isolated again?

?We are asking the government for privileges, and we?re asking a great deal of people to believe we ask in all humility and mean no harm ? yet all they have to do is remember Darth Vader, and they?ll suspect the contrary.?

?Your solution?? Cal looked deeply intrigued.

?Suppose the council isn?t composed entirely of Jedi?.We can have one member from each of the government branches that might feel threatened by us. Say we have a Senator chosen by the Senate. Someone from the defence force. Another representative from the Ministry of State, and another from the Justice Council to make certain we stay within the law. Rodan would have a hard time convincing people that all those representatives were Jedi puppets. Especialy if the Chief of State was on the Council as well.??

?That?s five non-Jedi on the Jedi Council.?

?Six?We?d also need someone from the Intelligence division.?

?And how many Jedi??

?Six Jedi?.That will bring the government representatives into balance with the Jedi.?

?That?s giving up a lot of the traditional Jedi power.?

?It?s power we?ve already lost?We lost it when the old Jedi fell.?? (p. 92-94)

The practicality of this arrangement is further demonstrated over the possibility of the NR executing Alpha Red. The Jedi oppose the NR but the NR decide to deploy it. Luke knows the NR needs a victory to be able to not deploy Alpha Red so he works to create one. The Nr and Omas do not fear Jedi coercion but are acting to survive. The balance means Jedi and non-Jedi alike respect each other because neither can gain a majority to coerce the other and neither need fear being coerced. As is clear from the quote the non-Jedi on the Council are not the administrative but the executive arm of the NR, in all its branches, the people who are empowered to decide for others, on their behalf. Similarly the Jedi on the Council act in exactly the same capacity for all the Jedi.

Nor is it said anywhere that the NR can interfere in Jedi training or the Jedi affect NR activity. It is very likely that both sides will respect the other's sphere of influence and activity, to create a healthy and mutually supportive relationship.

The only time the Nr or Jedi would get over-ruled is if a member of either the NR or Jedi voted with the other 6 on a course of action against their own group. Which would be an indication that group is attempting to do something it should not, either NR, as in deploying Alpha Red or Jedi, as in taking children away from their parents.

Jedi Ben

 

Good points.


I just thought of something else. If Nom survives, the NR and Jedi might not be able to do anything to him. He may end up being the leader of the new Vong government. Though that wouldn't necessarily sit well with them, they wouldn't want to reignite the war by trying to do anything to him.

 

i agree with the High Council, with the joint Jedi and Leaders of the NR...but they should have a Jedi Council as well, so it'd be like Luke and Kyp and Mara, with Ackbar, Antilles, Leia, and other politicians forming the head of the government, and then Kyp Luke, Leia, Mara, Kam, Tionne, Jacen, Streen...etc... Forming a head of the Jedi, i guess like two house thing, with the Jedi -senate, Politicians and what not-house, and the high council-executive branch/Congress as a whole

sorry i cant explain things, but yeah, im a big LOTR fan, and i as well figured that Nom Anor would somehow play a part in the destruction of the Vong, or at least aid the NR

what happened with the whole Underground Resistance in DW, still talked about, or disappear????

and r Jacen and Danni together or something, whos Jacen "with" in DW??

 

There should be 12 Jedi on the Jedi Council, no more no less. This is a matter of form.

 

There should be 12 Jedi on the Jedi Council, no more no less. This is a matter of form.

The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

 

Who's to say there won't be 12 Jedi on the JEDI Council?

"'I would like to welcome everyone... to ..What is it, anyway? We're not the Jedi Council, with half of us not being Jedi.'

'Let's just call it the High Council, for now,' said [Cal Omas]." (p.291)

Frankly Charlemagne your fears are groundless. It is very likely there will be a Jedi Council for the purpose of training and supervising Jedi padawans and Knights and even checking on their Masters. If a matter is very serious it can be referred to the High Council, which oversees the Jedi Council.

Jedi Ben

 

I dunno it's weird really, I feel like a participant in the Jedi way and the galaxy as a whole with all this controversy.

When I think of there being 6 nonJedi on the Jedi Council it brings up the words "Sacrarelidge" and "Blasphemy" to my mind which means I really do understand how the Jedi might view it. I do hope there is a controversy over this personally because it seems like such a major betrayal of everything Luke has fought for (ironically by Luke) and so many have perished for.

Ironically to forces that have no right to complain because they have given no reason for the Jedi to give in my mind a <experlative deleted> about what they think.

Luke is a powerful reformer but some of his decisions don't sit too well with me. I think they should appoint a Grandmaster of the Jedi by both parties with power to overrule them.

But then I'm sure they'd want a nonforcesensetive on the Throne perhaps (even if they're worthy) and I'd find that highly offensive as well even if it was the Dali Lama.

Weird huh how prejudice begins and outrage?

 

That quote I've just given you EXPLICITLY states those on the Council are not calling it the Jedi Council, which leaves the door open for a Jedi Council of 12 Masters dedicated to the training & supervision of Jedi training, which the old Jedi Council did to a very large extent.

AND you still go on about the Jedi Council having non-force-sensitives on it, when I've given you chapter and verse that disproves your argument.

Jedi Ben

 

I posted before I saw yours friend.

pity, I was hoping the Jedi Council would be returning at this point. This is just another layer of bureaucracy.

I am highly relieved though.

Well at least there's a chance of Leia being on the JC then

<happy face>

 

Charlemagne, couple of things:

1. The fact is there is always going to be bureaucracy, it is whether that bureaucracy is effective or ineffective that is the issue.

For example, a well-run government with a dedicated admin staff will work very well as the Admin guys keep the wheels running smoothly so the execs can get on with the decisions of running the show. When I'm looking after the Environment team's timesheets at GLA, it is so they can focus on creating/implementing the Mayoral Strategies.

It just so happens that SW GFFA has been plagued with poor bureaucrats and no quality control, there is obviously no such thing as an audit with the force of law in the OR or NR yet wherein your office gets inspected and if you ain't up to scratch, then you HAVE to do 1, 2 and 3 or else! Law does not allow these things to be voluntary. Nor has the politicians in the OR or NR heard of the idea of firing the staff if they are crap!

Finally: A real-life parallel: Margaret Thatcher came to power, amongst her promises was that she would roll back the state, she rolled it further forward than anyone else before or after her! Funny, didn't Palpatine do the same in the OR?

2. Why are the Jedi feared in the NJO despite all Luke has done? Well let's construct a parallel.

We have a priest who goes bad, he becomes a committed Satanist who goes on a mass killing spree. The entire Christian church save for a few priests is killed, men, women and children. Then it becomes known he is working with a terrorist group who release a doomsday weapon and this priest dispenses it claiming it is an Act of God. The terrorists are defeated, the few surving priests are very active in opposing their once member. They save many lives. But when they come to the issue of how to revive the Church they are faced with the very thorny issue of how to regain the trust one of their number bretrayed. How to gain new members when all your old ones were killed by a fellow? How to preach the Word of God when that very word was used as an excuse for slaughter by a once-priest? How do you reassure the public it won't happen again? Appeals to God won't work. I say not this to offend your views but to put you in the head of a non-Force sensitive who remembers the Empire, Darth Vader and cannot help but feel uneasy about the Jedi.

It is the same for Luke and the Jedi in SW, in NJO, despite all he has done Luke is unable to dispel the shadow cast by his father. The shadow cast by the once brightest Jedi Knight, one whom the order had much hope in and whom was given special support by the order.

In the eyes of the SW public the Jedi Order betrayed its trust, it is akin to the a far worse version of the outrage over the scandal of Catholic priests sexually abusing children. Those priests have caused the Catholic Church near-irreparable damage, what is the Pope to do after saying sorry? How is he to reassure the faithful and the rest of the world? It is a great struggle to regain public trust once it is judged to have been betrayed.

JB

 

Well at least there's a chance of Leia being on the JC then

What on earth has Leia done to earn a spot on the Jedi Council? Merely being of Skywalker blood and therefore, more Force-sensitive than the rest of the bunch, does not give her a free ticket to overseeing the entire Order of Jedi.

JMA

 

Leia more than the addition of the politician oversight (I can see the necessity of some liason work yes-now that my fears are settled) is a perfect candidate for keeping Jedi grounded and well functioning with the Republic as a whole. She has the Skywalker bloodline and that means roughly that she like Skywalker can sail through training if she ever desires to Jedi Masterhood (Street was an old man when he started) but even now she is a fully trained Jedi Knight.

She also in her time rebuilt the Galactic Republic which was a goal of any good individual but a major boon for the galaxy and the Force as a whole even if her tireless efforts were hampered at every oppurtunity.

She defeated Darth Sideous with her brother and son which destroyed the Eclipse over Pinacle Base, she helped Han defeat two dark side adepts over nar shaddaa (admittadly with dire consequences), she recovered Vima Da Boda from Nar Shadaa's misery which saved Luke's life, she slew the Dark Jedi Knight Beldarion in a lightsaber duel, she killed the evil Dark Jedi Kueller, she rescued the children taken by the Dark Side warrior Henithar, she acquiessed to the necessity of keeping the twins from mental danger which shows great judgement, she brought Luke Skywalker back from the Dark Side of the Force

She has earned the title of Jedi Knight and more than that JEDI MASTER over and over again

 

She has earned the title of Jedi Knight and more than that JEDI MASTER over and over again

[face_shocked]

Well....if you say so....

JMA

 

I don't think Leia considers herself enough of a Jedi to be on any Jedi council.

 

Well take the matter out of her hands then, Nomi Sunrider didn't think she was a Jedi and Thon didn't take that as an answer and neither should Luke.

Like

She's on the Council and the other 11 should treat her as such even if she refuses it

 

I think that if this New Council had been made up only of Jedi and no New Republic high-ranking officials, then Leia would have best served as an ambassador - a link - between the Jedi and the New Republic Senate and other ministries.