Rogue One [Official Info] Diego Luna (Captain Cassian Andor) in Rogue One

Bringing this to the right topic.

Not even one. There is not a single quote by Cassian Andor apologizing. Admitting of being wrong, is not the same as apologizing. It just isn't.

If he had taken action earlier, Galen Erso would not be dead.

1. He didn't kill Galen Erso, but he might as well have. Galen Erso died partially because of Cassian Andor, he is responsible too.
2. No, he did not apologize. Admission of being wrong is not an apology. And he does not offer to make amends at any point. He offers his help to Jyn's Rogue Squadron.
3. She was 100% of being aggressive to him, because her father died partially because of him and the rebellion. Everyone in the ship knew it. Everyone judged him. This is not a debate, it's something the movie shows you. He had his reasons, but that doesn't negate what he intended to do and how he manipulated both Bodhi Rook and Jyn Erso in the ship. But Chirrut Imwe figured him out.
4. No, he did not show remorse. There is no remorse in any of his words. He tries to make things better for the Rebellion and the Galaxy, but he has no remorse over what happened at the Imperial Facility with Galen Erso.

Cards on the table? Jyn Erso is not self righteous, she is right. There is a difference.

Again, Cassian Andor never even once apologized. He justified himself and his actions. That's different.

Grammar*
Words are important. And when you twist them, you ruin the conversation.

Yeah ok, just don't pretend to be my therapist. Cause I haven't commented on your mood or emotions or other stuff that I have no idea of.

I don't believe in any gods and I don't go to church, but I do know what was in the movie, and you don't need to point it out to me.

If that was the case about military, then Cassian Andor would have never gone to Scarif. Clearly, he chose eventually to do the right thing. I hate the character because he didn't choose to do the right thing earlier. It is as simple as that, and we can just agree to disagree. I don't require from you to hate the character.

What's not insidious about manipulating people so you can remove them from the equation and have the chance to assassinate in cold blood your companion's father? It is 100% insidious, I am not making it.

Why should Jyn Erso apologize to him? She was in the right. And Cassian's actions led to Galen Erso's death.
If you know that person X will murder person Y and it is proven that you knew all along in court, you will be trialed for accessory to murder.
That's exactly what Cassian Andor was. An accessory to murder. Maybe not for the rebellion, but definitely from an ethical point of view.
At least from my personal ethical point of view. So I sympathize 100% with Jyn Erso and I think she had every right to be aggressive towards him.
Her words were on spot, all of them. And he admits he can't talk his way out of it. But he just doesn't care, because as he said "he doesn't have to".

Quite the assumption there, but a false one. Draven TRIED to call off the hit, but the X-Wing pilots were unreachable. So if Cassian Andor had chosen to call if off earlier, Galen Erso would be alive.

I have specifically said 4 times already that Cassian Andor doesn't need to apologize for not killing her father, this is getting ridiculous. But he should apologize for getting him indirectly killed, for lying to her, and for manipulating all of them in that mission so that he can assassinate a person, even if he ended up not doing it. And Draven should apologize as well. That doesn't clear Cassian Andor from his wrong actions. And I can blame anyone I want, this is a forum. I will blame even the mechanic who did maintenance on the X-wing that shot the bomb if I want to.

 

I'm really not sure why I'm responding, given your attempts to get me in trouble for no reason over in the other thread, but whatever, here we go.

Except for the line of dilogue I qouted in the other thread, where he admits he was wrong. But I already know your going to ingore that so I'm not sure why I'm bothering...

Again, if he had tried to call of the attack earlier, Draven would have just ingored him.

1: how is he responsable for Draven's orders and the actions of the X-wing pilots?
2: An admission of being wrong is literally the definition of what an apology is. And he 100 percent offers to make amends - that's exactly what he's doing when he offers to help with the mission to Scarif.
3: The movie shows them judging him for almost killing him, but also shows Jyn being fairly self-rightous and attacking him even though he had just tried to save her life and had decided NOT to kill her father. IMO the mood on the shuttle from the others seemed more akward.
4: He very clearly does; heck, he even flat-out says he does. If you want to interprete the spoken dilogue as him having no remorse, that's fine, but that's not what the movie intended.

One can be right and also be self-righteous.

He justified himself in one scene (to mask his guilt) and then admitted his justification was wrong in a latter one (which is an apology, becuase he's admitting he was wrong and that's, you know, what an apology is).

I never said I was.

You have'nt? Need I remind you of the other thread were you just flipped out and made wild assumptions about what I was saying, even though I was'nt saying anything of the sort?

I made an assumption based on your prose (a thing that is very easy to do online and happens to peaple all the time), and then admitted I was wrong when you clarified how you felt, and your still hung up on it for some reason.

It's a figure of speech.

Exactly, he chose to do the right thing. But the point your conflating two different parts of the movie, becuase he had not yet come to that realization when Draven gave him his orders.

Well, I guess you must also hate a lot of characters in Star Wars then - Han and Lando come to mind, most notably.

If your a soldier on a mission, and peaple will interfer/jepordize that mission, then you can't have them in the way. If that requires lying to them to prevent their interference, so be it, but your making it out like he's Littlefinger or something, which is'nt what the movie presented at all.

She accused him of killing her father even though he had actually chosen NOT to kill him and had nothing to do with his death and verbally attacked him even though he had just saved her life.

IMO she actually had far more reason to apologize to him then he did to her.

How so?

A soldier killing the enemy in war is not a crime, let alone "murder". At worst (assuming we are treating the rebels as a legitimate state actor) he could be tried for following illegal orders, but I doubt the Rebels would go so far as to try him for Galen's death, considering that at the end of the day he was, irregardless of his decision to turn inside man, a key imperial weapons scientist whose death hurt the Empire far more then the Rebellion.

He very clearly does care though, becuase he flat-out says he was just offering up justifications to try and make up for how guilty he felt over his actions later in the film; how can he feel guilty if he does'nt care?

I think your missing the point were Draven only called off the airstrike becuase he was told Rebel personel were in the blast zone - had Cassian called in earlier and that had not been the case Draven would not have called off the attack, becuase remember, he's the one who wants Erso dead so badly.

He does'nt need to apologize for what Draven and the X-wing pilots did. That's not his bad, he did everything he could to prevent Erso's death and had no power to do anything more. Outside of that his dilogue before they go on the mission to Scarif was a clear admission of guilt for his actions and him owning up and admitting he was wrong, and in fact he clearly includes assassin in the list of terrible things he and the others have done.

You know no one ever said you could'nt blame him, right? All that I've been doing was pointing out how your opinion does'nt quite line up with the actual information presented by the film. I've made it quite clear if your upset and you hate Cassian that's your own damn biusness; as I said, between you and your priest.

See, this is why I read you as aggressive earlier; you go off with "I can do this and that and do/feel/say whatever I want" when nobody said you could'nt.

 

Showing little to no respect to the opposite point of view and trying to invalidate it while twisting words and trying to put words in my mouth is not my idea of "no reason"

And you are STILL doing it. I wasn't aggravated at all when this whole thing started, but now I am getting a little pissed. I would have blocked you if it was an option. I do not appreciate your methods and the way that you disrespect me in this conversation, so this will be my last response, cause I need to do something better with my Monday, even if I have it off.

For the 100th time, admission is NOT apology.

Cassian Andor lacks the second part of that statement, as he never expressed regret throughout the movie.

1. He is part of the Rebellion and following orders. He is partially responsible for what the Rebellion does, including his mission to assassinate someone, even if he ended up not doing it at the end.
2. You are literally wrong. See definition above.
3. IMO you are wrong
4.He literally does not show remorse.

This is true. But Jyn Erso is right and NOT self-righteous.

Again, you are literally wrong. Admission of being wrong is not an apology.

You didn't say it, but you did it. You can't read my mood, so stop trying. You know nothing about me.

No need to remind me, I know very well when someone is trolling and/or baiting me. And yes, you did admit that you were wrong. And yet, you never apologized. I can see why you like Cassian Andor.

And that's why I dislike him. He should have come to that realization earlier.

They didn't try to assassinate anyone's father, and they most certainly hadn't killed a gazillion people under the pretense that they are serving the cause. So no, I actually don't hate a lot of characters in Star Wars, and certainly not Han Solo and Lando. I do hate Cassian Andor and Holdo though.

I don't care about your military ethics, I am a pacifist and don't find the army an ethical institution anyway. Cassian Andor is a manipulating horrible human for me, and you will never ever change my mind about it, nor will you prove my point of view wrong.

She did well. I wish every strong female character in Star Wars had confronted people like Cassian Andor that way, instead of shipping themselves to them. Jyn Erso is my favorite Rogue One character and I admire her more than most SW characters. She is ethically and actively amazing, and inspiring when she talks in front of the Rebel Alliance.

That is absurd. Galen Erso is the reason that the Death Star was destroyed. He is the reason why we "only" got 10 billion deaths because of the Death Star, as opposed to possibly 400 billion or more. The only victim of the Death Star was Alderaan, when if Galen Erso hadn't been involved, it would have been dozens of planets that did not conform with the Empire, and the Empire would have been in command for who knows how many dozens or hundreds of years. Galen Erso is a hero of the Rebellion, no matter which you see it. The movie shows all of that stuff.

The fact that he's offering his service to the Rogue One team is making up for his guilt, it doesn't show remorse or emotions of guilt about Galen Erso.

But only about fighting for the cause. He literally says so.

For the 101th time, admission is not apology. You can repeat that 102 times if you want, it still won't make it true.

My opinion lines up perfectly with the film and with Jyn Erso's opinion, who I consider an amazing character. And it's my business to express that opinion on these forums, since they are here for that reason. If you cannot accept that I hate Cassian Andor as a character, you are the one that should probably talk to your priest about it. I am proud of my opinion, I don't need to repent, confess or pray. And you are actively telling me that my opinion doesn't line up with the film, and you have said so many times in the past few hours, both about Cassian Andor and about TLJ Mark Hamill who is someone else but not Luke. So don't lie, you DID say that I can't have an opinion different than yours basically. Well, I can.

 

I'm really not sure how you think I twisted your words/put words in your mouth, or were you got the notion I was'nt respecting your opinion - need I remind you that my entire argument on that other thread was based on the premise that all fan opinions are equally as valid and worthy of respect.

All I'm saying is that we're all fans (you, me, Johnson and everyone else) and all our views and ideas should be respected equally and regarded as equally valid, becuase we all love the francise and it's characters and none of us can claim superior "ownership" over them. I'm not trying to support or praise TLJ, just point out the equal validity of it's narrative choices realtive to anything else (be it the EU or something hypothecial concocted by fans).*
How is this showing no respect to the opposing view?

*this applies to this conversation as well. I respect your opinion and your take on the character/film, even though I don't agree that R1 as a narrative story lines up with that take or was attempting to protray things the way you seem to think it was. I'm sorry if you felt/feel otherwise.

Please explain why you think that then, becuase if you do instead of getting upset and accusing me of twisting your words, perhaps I could understand what the issue is and avoid it in the future.

Um...

...he very clearly expresses regret during their discussion before he leaves Scarif.

1; that seems spurious logic; if we're going by that regard my grandfather is partially responsable for the Dresden firebombing, even though he was in the United States Navy and serving in the Pacific and Dresden is in Europe and was carried out by the air force.
2; What Cassian said to Jyn 100 percent fits the dictonary definition of an apology; he regretfully acknowledged an offense/faliure.
3; Cool? I mean, I'm about as right as you are in this case, if we're being completly honest.
4; how so? He says he's done terrible things and admits it was wrong and that he had to lie to himself to surpress his guilt. How is that not showing remorse? Are you talking about the tone of his voice? If so your not reading it the way the film intended you to read the character.

Well, from my point of few she's wrong (she's right to be angry, but her anger is misplaced) and absolutly self-righteous; this is a girl who a few hours earlier though the Rebels was hot trash lecturing a guy whose been in the fight since he was a child on being a rebel, right after he tried his best to save his life from her own foolishness, while at the same time she's also blaming him for something he not only did'nt do, but could have done and decided not to do.

I like Jyn, but I thought she was in the wrong from the first time I saw the movie when it came to that scene.

Definition of apology
1a: an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret

That's literally what it is.

I never did it. All I did was misread your attitude based on your prose, and I don't know why your so upset about that becuase A) it happens all the freaking time online and B) you apparently did the same thing to me over in the Mandalorian thread.

Clearly not, since if that's what you think I'm doing your so far off the mark you might as well be on Mars.

Well, it is hard to interprete how someone really feels online, but based on your prose and typing you seem very bent out of shape about this, as your stubbornly ingoring things in the film and getting very aggressive (or seem to be getting very aggressive, again sorry if I'm misreading your mood, it's hard online as I said)

Really

But if the reason you dislike Cassian is becuase he was in the wrong and only owned up that later rather then earlier, then both Han in ANH and Lando and ESB can be fualted for the same thing.

And when did Cassian kill a gazillion peaple? Source? (and I assume your claiming this was that he murdered a gazillion peaple, not "killed a gazillion enemy combatants").

There not "my" military ethics, there the worlds; pacifist or no, you are the one arguing that he would be tried as an acessery to murder, which it's highly doubtful he would (in fact it's highly unlikely he would be tried in a civilian court at all).

When did I ever say I was trying to change your mind or prove your POV wrong?

All I'm doing, for the billionth time, is pointing out what's in the film (and how the film intended the audience to interpret the story). I never once said I wanted you to change your mind or prove your personal, subjective point of view wrong. You seem to be taking this personal, and I'm really, honestly not sure why, becuase it's not.

Um...cool? Thanks for sharing?

I mean, I would'nt have been nearly as nice to her had I been in Cassian's position, but that's just me. Being a "strong female character" does'nt give you an excuse to be a dick; if I don't kill someones father and also try to save their life, I really would'nt enjoy being unjustly accused of the thing I expressly decided not to do and treated like crap by some outsider who barely knew me.

I think you might be forgottening the part where Jyn Erso used to be a stright-up terrorist, and is guilty of a lot of the same things she seemed to judge Cassian for so harshly (if not worse, given that she was a part of Saw's group).

Yes, I agree with you. My point was the Rebel authorities carrying out his (hypothical) military tribunal likely would'nt care about that, as they'd be more likely to take into account the fact that A) Erso could have been feeding the Rebels false information and B) could have later, willingly or no, used his knownledge and abilities to cuase further damage to the Rebellion.

I'm sure he feels sad that Erso is dead, but he did'nt kill him so why would he feel remorse over that?

Like look, I get that you think he was responsable, but why would he? I would'nt if I were in his place; Cassian is'nt you, and is'nt required to feel guilty over something that he did'nt do just becuase, from your perspecive, he bares some kind of collective guilt.

I'm not sure what this is in response to, becuase your wording and composition makes it unclear, sorry.

I mean, your the one who posted the dictonary defination of what an apology is, so I'm not sure why your saying this.

An apology is an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret. Cassian admitted error and showed regret (you say he did'nt, but you provided no source to back this up. Is this from the novelization? Becuase nothing in the movie suggests his regret was not geniune) hence he fits the critera for an apology.

The film flat-out has him admit he was wrong and express regret, and also makes it clear he had no control over the X-wings, so I'm not quite sure why you think that's the case, but hey, you do you.

You keep saying I can't accept that you hate Cassian, and I keep saying I don't care that you do (and asking when I said otherwise).

"Between you and your priest" is a figure of speech, and has nothing to do with religion; it means between you and yourself.

I mean, maybe we watched different films, but honestly...that's becuase it kinda does'nt.

I mean, I respect your opinion, but from where I'm sitting R1 really does'nt seem to support your position; I'm not trying to be rude or sound dismissive, but that's geniunly how it looks.

Eh?

I never said that; I said some fans who hate TLJ hate TLJ on the grounds that they consider Luke to not be the "true" Luke - I never said I thought that, and in fact I said the opposite of that.

Okay. When?

Provide a link, and if so I'll apologize, becuase clearly if I did so I was wrong and in error.

 

@K2771991

You are twisting reality in every single one of your posts, and I have come to the conclusion that you're not even realizing it.
Here's the recap, in case you still don't understand it.

1. I hate Cassian Andor. The more you react to it, the more I will hate him. He is a horrific human being and a type I never wish to encounter.
2. I hate him because he does not show regret anywhere in the movie, regardless of what you say. There is no regret.
3. He never apologized to Jyn Erso. Not even once. Admission is not apology. There is no apology in the movie.
4. You have no right to tell me I am objectively wrong about what the movie shows. I saw the movie. I know what it shows.
5. Every time you claim the movie doesn't support my opinion you ARE being rude AND dismissive.
6. I really don't care for this anymore. Feel free to respond 4 pages long of non arguments. I won't respond. You can have the last word.
7. Mark Hamill in TLJ is not Luke to me. It is a 100% false representation. Because somehow that is always relevant in any convo.

 

It would be helpful if you could provide examples, rather then make accusations regarding my intentions.

1. Okay...I don't know why I keep having to say that, but that's fine. I never said it was'nt. Hate him all you want, I don't give f*#$.
2. Source? As I said, perhaps the novelization said his regret in the scene before Scarif was false, becuase I cannot think of anything in the film that suggest it is the case. What led you to read the scene in such a way, becuase with all due respect I don't think the writers meant for you to view it that way.
3. An apology, by the definition you yourself posted, involves an admission of error or discourtesy, which is exactly what happened in the movie. Your saying an admission is'nt apology; but the evidence you yourself provided says it is.
4. As I said I respect your opinion, but the R1 I watched does not seem to line up with the way you interpreted it. I'm honestly not trying to be rude when I say that, I'm just pointing out what (seems to be to me) a cold, hard fact.
5. No, I'm not. I've tried to be fairly polite (granted stress as occassionally led me to get sarcastic or snippy over the course of our discourse, and for that I apologize) but just becuase I don't think the movie lines up with your opinion does'nt mean I'm being rude, it just means we apparently interpreted the film in two drastically different ways. Honestly maybe my interpration was wrong? Who knows?
6. I never wanted the last word. And IMO for someone who thinks I'm being so disrespectful, it's pretty disrepectful that you yourself are just dismissing my statements as "non arguments" rather then responding to them.
7. Cool, but my point was that both your view and his are equally as valid; your vision for Luke is just as "right" as anyone elses, including Johnson's - everyone is entitled to their personal ideas and those ideas should be respected, even if one disagrees with them, becuase none of us own the characters or know them any better then anyone else.

 

There's a reason Cassian didn't express "regret" about his decision vis-a-vis Galen, and it's in the scene. He tells Jyn that he disobeyed the order to kill Galen. He doesn't kill Galen. He then follows that up by trying to stop the X-wing attack. He says as much to Jyn, but to no fault of her own, she isn't interested in hearing about it because the X-wings killed her father. Cassian expressed his "regret" in more than words - he didn't do what he was ordered to do. He didn't kill Galen. So he decided it was morally the wrong thing to do, and acted on it. He then takes it all a step further by supporting Jyn's mission to the hilt, making sure that Galen's dying wish was fulfilled.

The scene in question is a complicated one because Cassian just disobeyed an order, didn't kill Galen, but Galen died anyway, and now Jyn's blaming it on him despite his change of heart. And she confronts him on it, and he's defensive because he actually made a major life decision to disobey an order. But Jyn isn't having it, and reprimands him for not disobeying the order earlier (and of course, not telling her what he was up to). It's a very tense exchange after a really tense experience, and so accusations and defensiveness is the result. But later, when passions are cooled, he realizes that Jyn's perspective is correct, that he should learn to follow his own moral compass when the situation calls for it (even if it conflicts with Rebel policy), and decides to break the rules again and support Jyn's mission. He was redeemed, IMO.

 

Well that's not at all how I read his behavior, I'm sorry. There is nothing that expresses regret in his speech on Yavin 4 after Jyn Erso's notion has been dismissed. He appears to care about the fight and the cause, and he trusts her word about the trap in the Death Star, so he helps her not to make amends for her father's death, but because he genuinely wants the Rebel Alliance to destroy the Empire. And because he wants the fight to have a purpose and help him sleep at night. Which is in character and pretty great and all, but it doesn't make me like the character any more.

He's not making sure that Galen's dying wish is fulfilled, come on now. His motive and incentive is the Rebel Alliance scoring a victory. Not killing Galen Erso is not commendable, jesus. It's the right thing to do. Doesn't erase his behavior towards Jyn Erso, nor the fact that he was 100% condescending, stubborn and self-righteous towards her. Maybe not a problem for you, but a real dealbreaker for me. I didn't say he was as bad as the imperials btw. I just said that out of the 9 major people that sacrificed their lives for the Rebellion, he is by far my least favorite and the only one I hate. It's not a very crazy notion, people got to get over it.

 

Man, if only Lucas knew that by writing that line into the film he'd be providing gods gift to forum mods three decades down the line...

 

It was a brilliant move on his part.

 

See now EHT, you just missed a golden opportunity to say that it was "a suprise to be sure, but a welcome one."

 

I actually laughed (and agree, it all started by me saying that I hate Cassian Andor, how dare I)

 

An amicable conclusion to a heated discussion!!??

 

My discussion with you was never heated

 

@DarthFixxxer my discussion with you was never heated; I was annoyed at points, and miffed at one point in the other thread, but it was never heated. I'm earnestly sorry if you felt that way, thought I was being disrespectful (becuase that was the exact opposite of my intentions) or felt as if I was tell you could'nt hate the character; honestly, I think you just misunderstood my entire argument and ascribed a position to me that I was not trying to make, but I willing to accept that's probobly my fualt for not being clearer, but all I was trying to do was point out what happened in the film (as I said, though, we clearly interpreted the film differently and I freely amit it could easily be that I interpreted it wrong).

So, I guess...sorry for any misunderstanding?

 

Begun the gif war has

 

I just got very confused by your change in avatar; I was expecting to see Rey, and instead I see Luke!

And tell it to @EHT , he started it

 

But really, that should be the end of it.