Official Knights of the Old Republic (Video Games) and the EU Thread (KOTORII Spoilers)

Honestly, it makes sense that Darth Traya abandoned the idea of the Rule of Two when trying to create her Trayus Academy full of Sith Assassins and apprentices. She wanted to build an order of beings that would help her destroy the Force (by destroying the Jedi). Honestly, Nihilus and Sion were smart to attack her because they would have been undoubtedly destroyed by her in the end as well.

It was an Academy of Learning, not a group bent on Galactic Domination.

If there's ever a KOTOR3 or book set in this era, I want the Jedi Council to consist of the following: Mira, Bao-Dur, Bastila Shann (Grandmaster), Brianna (Archivist), Juhani, Jolee Bindo (though he'd maintain he's not a Jedi), Visas Marr, and five guys we've never ever seen before. It'd be nice to realize that characters shaped the new order almost completely by themselves.

Sadly, Atton went with the Exile (why do I want him!?) and Atris will never ever be a Jedi Councilman again. I wish we saw more of her in the comic.

 

Not publicly, but in private he had already studied the teachings at Malachor and was already hunting down the Star Forge. Presumably, given that, he'd probably also been to Korriban as well to check out the Star Map there too given he runs straight off to Lehon (presumably). Kreia talks about the secondary "war of conversion", which has always somewhat implied that Revan was secretly carting people off to Malachor during the war to corrupt them.

Then, after the Battle of Malachor, they were all eager enough to follow him when he ordered them all to run off to the middle of nowhere after they'd won. Logically speaking, if he hadn't already corrupted the heck out of them it'd probably have been more than just the Exile who raised an eyebrow and asked where they were going when they'd just won the war.

At the very least, all signs point to Revan being Sith-in-all-but-Darth-name once he's passed the threshold on Dantooine and started chasing after the forbidden fruit. Exactly when he let Malak in on the full details is a big vague, but I'd expect sometime before they went to Korriban and didn't nuke the Sith Academy there from orbit.

 

It's pretty much certain that Revan was Dark Lord in the Sith in secret for at least the end of the war. Atton tells us that immediately following the battle of Malachor, the Sith teachings began "sweeping" through the ranks. Kreia tells us that the Mandalorian Wars were hiding Revan's true "war of conversion", yada, yada, yada.

Unless Malak didn't know about the Star Map on Kashyyyk, we also know that the "Dantooine Star Map" cutscene took place during, or prior to, 3961 BBY. Which took place following Revan's studies on Malachor, since the Dantooine Star Map had Korriban's location, which Kreia tells us Revan learnt from Malachor.

So, yeah, Revan didn't turn to the dark side or sign up to the Sith teachings following the Mandalorian Wars. It was during.

And, if the Chronicles can be believed, he was a Dark Lord for pretty much the entirety of his involvement.

No, it's in the cut content from Sion to Nihilus:

Sion: There is more. Darth Traya yet lives. You didn't not kill her, as you assumed.

But he also refers to her as Darth Traya (in the final game) if you're rubbish in the fight against him, so I was wrong on that count of him only ever calling her Kreia:

Sion: [Failure] I have trained in the halls of Darth Traya, listened to her teachings, and have learned much of deception.

 

If the Wookiee is correct, it also mentions Bastila saying that Revan visited Korriban while he was still known as a Jedi (i.e. during the war).

It's basically: Revan fights the Mandalorians for one or two years; getting desperate he then starts looking for any advantage he can find, which sends him a bit nuts; in spite of Malak's protestations he starts pursuing big bad things; he then finds Malachor and realises the Mandalorians might not be their biggest problem; and by the final year of the war he just nukes the lot of them at Malachor so he can get on with his real job of preparing the Galaxy.

I think the only thing that's still a completely unknown unknown is exactly when he cottoned on to the True Sith. I think, based on all the talk of the Jedi Civil War being about helping toughen the Galaxy up, that he must have had some inkling, though I believe there is a quote that says he didn't specifically learn about the True Sith until after the war. In my own mind I generally assume that means the difference between just vague visions of doom to begin with, as opposed to identifying exactly what he was sensing later on.

Which, personally, I prefer to "becoming a Sith to defeat the Sith" as that always seemed a bit silly to me. I prefer to think that the reason he didn't realise the threat was the Sith until after his redemption was basically because while he was one himself he was blinded to the truth of his concerns. Hence, only once he'd cleared his mind could he go back to Malachor again and realise "Holy kark! There's another Sith Empire out there somewhere!"

i.e. it was staring him in the face the whole time, but in the middle of Mandalorian invasion he just wasn't thinking straight, other than just "I NEED MORE POWER!" at the time.

 

Well she says: "And I know Revan and Malak visited Korriban at least once"

Well, considering the Chronicles mention that Revan becomes a Sith Lord after discovering Malachor whilst scouting early into the war, and the very first time we meet the Revanchist the Council are repremanding him for "scouting missions", I don't think it's even the case that Revan's fighting for a couple of years before he gets desperate. Even as early as Flashpoint, Malak tells Zayne that Revan "has a plan to defeat the Mandalorians, but it's dangerous...".

As Raana Tey says, shortly after the Council have lectured Revan on neutrality: "A Sith Lord could stand right in front of them and they'd lecture him on neutrality."

So, yeah, I'm actually thinking that it's his conversion to the Sith teachings that gives him the balls to lead an entire faction of the Jedi Order to war in the first place. Which explains why:

And:

Basically, Vrook was right on the money when it came to the sort of timeframe of Revan's turn.

I think it's more the case of: "I'll use their own knowledge against them" which then leads to "I must destroy them so that I am the undisputed Dark Lord of the Sith."

It's pretty typical Star Wars fare, really.

 

After the Council browbeat Revan, Raana's dialog should have been: "A Sith Lord stood right in front of them and ALL they did was lecture him on neutrality. Nice."

 

That's how I see it too. Strong echoes of Ulic there, from only a generation previously.

 

That's interesting, but I don't think Malak necessarily has to have been the Apprentice (I think Trump is going to sue me for copyright infringement now) for only those last five minutes. What if Revan was really doing a riff on the Rule of Two, and had his longtime number two, Malak, forced to confront a pool of challengers, Revan's fellow apprentices. Malak is the Apprentice, the designated heir to the power of the Master, Revan. Revan takes five or ten other apprentices, however, and trains them and tells them (and Malak) that if they can outperform Malak, they become the Apprentice, the heir, the Number Two. Maybe Malak keeps taking a couple out, keeping himself in practice, and Revan refreshes the group by having other Sith forward their powerful apprentices, like Voren, to his group. It's a bit like those three colored Dark Jedi that Malak sends after you on the Star Forge, telling them whoever wins becomes his new Apprentice. You've got a pool of number threes challenging the designated number two. It's like a formalized version of how things worked under Bane's Rule of Two. It also connects with Revan's comment on the folly of multiple apprentices; yes, he kept multiple apprentices, but he kept only one actual Apprentice, one heir, and he focused the others' infighting efforts against his Apprentice, not himself.

 

"Any master who trains more than one apprentice is a fool"

I don't think the above works with that, really - despite what you say - though Malak uses the terminology of "Chosen Apprentice" which would fit.

Having a bunch of guys that Revan said, "Oh, yeah, take a shot at Malak" - sure. Having guys that he was training for the purposes of doing so? Nah.

(Also: I really want Revan to have curbstomped a whole bunch of upstart apprentices, leaving Malak as the last one standing sans jaw.)

 

Hasn't Leland Chee also declined commenting on it, though?

There's little reason to believe Kreia was completely right about everything. Least of all because she was a known liar and manipulator. Not to mention she herself was using supposition for much of what she was telling the Exile.

I was so happy when he popped back up. He could be a pain and may have been badly wrong from time to time, but he's entertaining and no one would accuse him of not being proactive in II. It's also great that in the second game, he has his own plan going that the Exile pretty much screws up. He may be a grumpy curmudgeon, but his actions were sometimes in the right place.

I'm usually into stories like that, too, so I found the Female Exile/Sion interaction to be fascinating. Male Exile/Atris, too. Good bits.

Nah, Visas would be more in the "Force-user fell to the dark side and was later redeemed" vein than anything. Katarr took place when? A year or two before KOTOR II? Before then she was just a young Miraluka living her (presumably) peaceful life.

I think Redcloak would resent that.

Yeah, in cut content. But obviously it was intended that they were all Darths before her exile.

Kavar would have to be remembering incorrectly if that's the case. He tells the Exile that "Revan had just returned" when the Exile faced her punishment.

 

Given how powerful all of them were, I imagine they're the best suited for being able to defeat the various Sith assassins sent after them. We know Bastila survived, there's no reason the others couldn't have been with her.

I have no doubt she can come back to the Light. I just think given the gravity of her crimes, her inability to grasp the most basic concepts, and so on; that it would be a big mistake for her to ever be in charge of the Jedi Order again. She should learn to teach students or do something more productive with her time than old habits.

 

I don't mean to be a spoilsport but I think we could be giving Darth Revan too much credit for the Rule of two. All he said was that training multiple apprentices was a bad idea. It's entirely possible that this had nothing to do with the whole Darth thing and he never remotely practiced the Rule of Two, merely talked about what inspired Bane to create it.

 

I don't remember that. KOTOR made a pretty big deal about the fact that it was Karath who was key in betraying Telos and leading the attack. And that Malak led the attack. Definitely the beginning of the Sith War, not the Mandalorian.

 

It's actually confirmed by Saul Karath that destroying Telos was the way that he proved his devotion to the Dark Lords.

 

There is something somewhat amusing in the idea that Revan was teaching Malak the Rule of Two by experience. "This is what happens when you train multiple apprentices. So don't."

That's my point. There is currently no official take on Arren Kae at the moment; so until we actually get the story of Arren Kae herself, mum's the word. Chee and individual authors are usually not in the business of stating facts that have not already been stated in a source.

 

I'll just stab his eye out, then.

That'd be absolutely A-OK with me. I don't mind him having a whole swathe of "potential successors" (that know they are as such) but he absolutely shouldn't be training any more than one guy after his apprentice uprising.

That's certainly a possibility.

It's the beginning of the Second Sith War, shortly after Karath defects upon Revan's return and it's Malak's order. That said, I do remember there being one instance where Carth gives a timeframe that is WILDLY off ("five years ago", or something), but I just ignore it because it was clearly an error.

Though I've never been able to rediscover that instance, so I might've just been imagining it.

Except the CG tells us that she was Kreia.

Though if they wanted to ignore it I wouldn't mind.

Which means he was implimenting a system of one master-one apprentice. It might've had nothing to do with the Darth thing, you're right but since we encountered absolutely no Darths outside the Dark Lord and his Chosen Apprentice in the game, even when other characters - in other Sith systems - might've borne the title, like Uthar Wynn, I think we can safely say that KotOR I implies that there are only two Darths.

If Darth wasn't restricted to "only two" I think BioWare would have had us battling a considerably higher amount of them. Why not give 'Darth' names to the three disciples that Malak refers to as his strongest followers? Why not give it to Uthar? Making 'Darth' a common occurance in the Revanchist Sith Order is silly.

Chaos, having more than two Sith Lords in the Revanchist system is silly, even. (Though KotOR I actually implies that there is only one Sith Lord and uses it interchangably with Dark Lord)

 

Yeah. Uthar is really the best example of someone who probably would have been a Darth had Revan just been handing the title out like candy. The only reason I can think why that might not be the case is if Uthar was relatively new to the job... but I don't remember how long ago Jovak (was that his name?) got kicked out of the headmaster's job.

I tend to think "Dark Lord of Korriban" may have just bee Yuthura talking self-aggrandising smack though. But, if Jovak and Uthar had been, like, the head of the Sith Academy and, thus, head of the Kunite remnants, maybe Revan would have been extra nice to them to keep them quiet.

He apparently didn't though...

Of course, he might just as well have only given Darth to his chosen few who were totally loyal, not the ex-Kunites who he knew were not "his" apprentices and so not necessarily fanatically loyal to him. So admittedly it might still be a bit vague.

I still do agree, though, that at the point in time KOTOR1 is set there were just meant to be two. Whether that's been retconned or not is another matter, but that was obviously what BioWare intended with Revan being Palps and Malak being Vader, and everyone else just being the normal grunts.

Yeah, but you know how retcons can be. They could change things so that it was Kreia who became known as Arren Kae to cover her pregnancy up, not Arren Kae who became known as Kreia. Retcons can do lots of funny things. Until we actually get Arren Kae's story though, nobody is officially likely to confirm much about her one way or the other. They may have said Kreia was actually her real name, but they're still, for the moment, keeping stum about Kae.

There would be a certain sense of irony if Kavar meant "We thought [Kreia] died in the Mandalorian War!" when in fact what happened wasn't that she died at all, but that she got pregnant and joined the Revanchists under the alias "Arren Kae" so that if people spoke about her they wouldn't automatically realise it was her (unless they knew her by appearance, which many Jedi might not if she had always been something of a reclusive archivist). And if Revan just stuck "Kae" on Malachor as his chief indoctrinator then it may have been that nobody ever even really saw "Kae" until after she had turned them into Sith.

We also don't know when the Jedi Watchmen died out either really, so even after they instituted a central Council following the GSW, Kreia may have trained Revan on some remote world, meaning few may have recognised her-- hence some thinking Kreia trained him, others thinking Kae trained him, and yet none joining the dots.

Or the much easier option is simply that she had a middle name.

I also read the CG bit about "Kreia's conundrums" yesterday and saw it was actually just in the CG article about Kreia not in a quote about her. It is in quotation marks, but that could still just be the article's "spoiler free" narrator doing the talking. Same deal really as how the CG articles talk about "Revan" all the time when, obviously, his name was not really Revan, but the book just can't have blank [Write your own name here] boxes on every page.

 

Given the Jedi Training Manual talks about how Mon Mothma was possessed by Exar Kun and there have been references to Jacen Skywalker, I think its important to start thinking that any time that there's a "minor" reference like talking about Kreia when she's supposed to be Arren Krae then we should be willing to ignore it until there's a fully POSITIVE statement that she's not.



Either that or we'll end up talking about how Exar Kun is responsible for how badly Ambassador Furgan's poison really was.

 

Yeah, the Jedi sourcebook has very much pleased me. If Jacen Skywalkers are now no longer restricted to web updates but published books too, I now no longer care about things I dislike until they are confirmed somewhere else as well.

Anyway, completely random comment, but as it is vaguely Sith related and applies to TOR, I figured this may the best place to mention it. So I was reading about the new Wolfenstein game and, in the process, decided to find out what the "Black Sun" it mentions was. That led me to this wiki page.

Is the similarity between that symbol (especially the Alemannic broach under the contents list) and the Republic/Empire (and seemingly now Sith-linked) symbol totally random, or is there an intentional connection between the Empire's symbol in the films and Nazi mysticism?

I'm assuming the answer is yes... and the rest of you may have noticed this long, long ago... but I've only come across it yesterday and found it rather interesting. Clearly the Black Sun has more spokes in the wheel than the Empire symbol (although the Alemannic broach has less), but there does seem to be a distinct similarity between them.

Any clue if that's ever been commented on before by someone important? (i.e. Lucas, McQuarrie, etc.)

 

I really think you guys are. Bane created the rule of two, Revan just didn't think much of training more than one apprentice at a time.


Though reading the old TOTJ comic I couldn't help but notice that Kun was made the master and Ulic the chief apprentice. I don't think he had the rule of two until TPM, and TOTJ came first, so I wonder why they made Ulic an apprentice instead of a fellow lord.

 

We know Bane created the rule of two, thanks.

We're talking about there only being two Darths, as the game itself indicates.

 

Yeah. Bane may have created the Rule of Two specifically, but Revan practised the Sith mirror of Jedi Master/Padawan by way of Dark Lord/Shadow Hand.

Whether Revan actually was the first to do that or not is somewhat besides the point, as we know there were Dark Lords and Shadow Hands in the ancient Sith Empire too. However, it was what Revan learnt through experience first hand, rather than something he read in a holocron or was just brought up to do.

Revan was simply the philosophical forbearer of Bane's belief system. Which is not necessarily to say Revan "created" anything, per se, just that he was the one who inspired Bane to do what he did.

 

Well, yes, I know that you know.
And you know that I know that you know.
And I know that you know that I know that you know.

But I think you are generally applying the rule of two a little too strictly...and perhaps taking the term Darth a little too seriously. I always just thought it was a personal choice.