Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Thesis statement: It is convoluted and stupid

The commerce guilds did not know about the Clone Army until it arrived on Geonosis. They expected to join the CIS, create a huge droid army, and then overrun the Republic which would then give into their demands. It hasn't been explicitly stated, but I am guessing that when the Clone Army showed up and it became apparent that the CIS was not going to win so easily, that the commerce guilds began to denounce the CIS Council members as traitors, that way they could remain in the Republic.

Lott Dod has described Gunray as being an extremist. Officially the Trade Federation has denounced Gunray and severed ties with him. I figure that the other commerce guilds did the same. However, in reality, they did not sever ties and are secretly coordinating their efforts to exploit both sides of the war. They have one foot on each side of the war, so that no matter which side wins, the commerce guilds will profit and come out in a position of power.

Now, if that's not enough. Lott Dod has also mentioned some piece of legislature (plot device) that allows him to state that in times of conflict the Trade Federation is not tied to the Republic and is free to remain a neutral party and carry out trade services for both sides.

It's not clear as to what the commerce guilds can and can't do legally. They obviously cannot pledge allegiance to a foreign government (which is why Gunray was denounced as a traitor), but they can apparently still help the CIS in their capacity as a trade cartel.Though I'm guessing those services do not extend to war materials.

In the episode Supply Lines, Lott Dod tries to convince King Katuunko that it is a bad idea to send supplies to Ryloth. Toydaria was a neutral world, and Lott Dod says that if the Toydarians send aid to the Republic that it would be considered a break of neutrality. Lott Dod then says that the Trade Federation would have to stop trading with Toydaria because otherwise it would open Trade Federation ships to attack by the CIS....

Which makes it look like the Trade Federation CAN'T trade with Republic planets.

Recap:

• Trade Federation is allegedly neutral and can conduct business with both sides.
• Trade Federation denounces Nute Gunray as a traitor for taking a position in CIS government, and yet holds a seat in the Republic government (does not seem neutral to me)
• Trade Federation can't trade with Toydaria, if Toydaria helps Republic, because then the Trade Federation would be helping a Republic planet which would make them a military target in the eyes of the CIS - contradicts the first bullet point.

So apparently the Republic tolerates the Trade Federation's neutrality and legal right to trade with either side, but the CIS won't tolerate the Trade Federation trading with the Republic.

To summarize: It is convoluted and stupid.

 

About this preview.. I think we should be wondering why R2 has a holovid of Rex in the first place..

And I don't regret this:

 

Rex looks like a statue in the holo however. Interesting video to take of ones self.

 

I get that they can remain neutral, and deal with both sides....

but the thing is they hold a senate seat and are part of the republic. how is that possible if they were neutral? thats like if the USA got in a war with Mexico. and maine said... we are neutral in this war. and will continue to trade and support both sides. well it doesnt really work that way

get what im trying to say?

 

If there were one thing that to take from my last post, it is: It is convoluted and stupid.

I know what you're saying, and you're right, that's not how it works in the real world. But it works that way in TCW for some stupid reason, that I don't even know if Filoni has it pinned down as to how it's supposed to work. They're just making it up as they go along, and once the commerce guilds leave the Republic for good, it'll be something best left forgotten.

 

Exactly.

 

This is an issue that has plagued the show for years, and it hasn't improved. Like Tarados said, the Trade Federation situation is nonsensical, and it's almost as if the writers behind the show change the circumstances to fit the plot. The concept of "neutral" seems to drift all over the board. Satine and her "neutral" friends in Voyage of Temptation seemed to have no problem representing themselves (exclusively?) in the Republic senate -- heck, half of them were Republic Loyalists! And in Pursuit of Peace, "neutral" IBC representative Mak Plain brags to Padme how the company just brokered a deal with the Seps to finance 3 million more battle droids. Bail and Padme just shrug it off and complain about their own loan rates -- um, excuse me? Since when do "neutral" corporations directly fund weapons of war? And then brag about it in public?

Someday I'd like it if Dave explained this whole "neutral" thing in one of his webdocs. He's touched upon it, but I get the impression he hasn't thought it out yet and is leaving it intentionally open-ended so they can shape it to fit as many future plotlines as possible. But it's definitely breaching credibility at this point.

 

I hate this neutral BS. HATE IT, HATE IT, HATE IT, HATE IT, HATE IT, .... it is not needed.

They also can not take a stance on it and IMO that is one of the reasons we have not seen Gunray in a while - the show's lazy writers and LUCAS do not have an idea until this season what to do with the Trade Federation.

The show does not know what Neutral is. The Satine thing and the Mak Plain thing prove it.

The Banking episodes in S3 did not need to happen. S2 could have had Lott Dod still a CIS supporter in the open, NO S3 Neutral garbage and by now we would have more appearances by Gunray.

TCW can go into detail without destroying the Senate or the Jedi Order. TCW crew really tries to keep those things from the PT fine, but when it comes to the CIS things - TCW screws up royal and makes mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake...

 

You are too kind by calling it stupid.

That would have been for the best...

 

Filoni has touched upon it a couple times, and I got the impression that he might have been echoing how Lucas explained it to him and that Filoni didn't quite understand.

Like having someone you believe to be a physics expert explaining something complicated and you think you understand, but then you try and teach what you learn to someone else who just pokes a bunch of holes in your explanation and you can't quite remember how it was explained to you, only that it seemed to make perfect sense. Only in this case, it would turn out that the physics teacher isn't really an expert at all, and doesn't really grasp the concept strongly themself.

When he initially addressed it in the commentary for Senate Spy. He put the idea forth that money is essential for the Empire and that it made more sense for Palpatine to keep these guilds in the Republic. But IMO, that just seems ridiculous. When we see how devious these guilds are, how much influence they have on politics, and that they'll play both sides and that their loyalty is for sale, I would think that Palpatine would want them eliminated, rather than share power, and would want to nationalize the banks and regulate the hell out of them.

anakinfansince1983 mentioned - on the topic of the holonet - that Palpatine seized it and used it to further his own agenda.

I would figure an easy resolution would be that Palpatine gets support to nationalize the guilds. The guilds obviously would have a big problem with that. They would leave and openly join the CIS. And then in the wake of ROTS Palpatine would then have an excuse to allow the central government to have a tight control on the economy.

E.G. "look what happened when the banks were allowed to form a guild and we gave them power to operate independently!"

And then if the money is all under Palpatine's control, he can more easily hide things like the massive amounts he'd have to move to build a certain weapon of mass destruction.

I figured that would be a quick and easy way that also made sense in the context of Palpatine's consolidation of power that could get these guilds out of the Republic ASAP and put an end to this stupid neutrality - that does not conform to any definition of "neutrality" that I am aware of.

 

Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the nod, TaradosGon! For the record, I'm still kicking and screaming doing fan projects, and am indeed getting a few nods here and there from LFL! I'll take whatever small victories I can get, but the goal is, similarly to you, to get much more involved with the cannon stuff!

Anyway, since it was mentioned (and hopefully not too frowned upon for being off topic), I just recently released a trailer for my next unofficial motion comic. Hopefully you guys won't mind me leaving it here, as, similarly to my first CW motion comic, a TCW veteran is a special guest. Can't go into anymore detail than that without stepping on toes! It's in 720p, though, so I recommend changing the settings to that! Hope you guys dig. I'm going to post it in the LACWAC Fanart thread as well, which is, I'm sure, a much more appropriate place to discuss it, should any of you feel the need! =)



Let me know if you guys prefered if I nixed the trailer from this thread, I'd be happy to! Goal is to just get more eyes on it!

 

The American Civil War was comparable to the Clone Wars, to an extent. A federation is divided when a group of member states secede and form their own rival federation, the legitimacy of which is wholesale rejected by the original federal state. Violence ensues. Apparently, you're either with the secessionist federation or the original federal state, with no grey areas.

Neutrality was not an unheard of concept during the American Civil War, however. The UK, Mexico, France and other interested parties studiously avoided making decisive statements regarding the Confederate States' legitimacy until the end result was a foregone conclusion. The state of Kentucky tried to be neutral, which seems to be the closest analogue to Mandalore's neutrality, since it was technically still a member of the United States. This apparent neutrality didn't last, as the C.S. violated Kentucky's neutrality just one year into the war. The U.S. and C.S. each tried to grab as much power as possible in Kentucky after that.

I don't see a problem with Mandalore's neutrality in TCW. We don't see Mandalore having full representation in the Republic Senate in Duchess Of Mandalore. Mandalore isn't shown to have a vote in the Senate. As Mandalore's head of state, Satine could be regarded by her fellow neutrals simply as a dignitary, going to petition the Republic to prevent a military invasion. Sure, (Mandalorian) Senator Tal Merrick is seen on Satine's ship and it's an easy assumption that he's going to Coruscant to carry out his duty as the Mandalorian senator. However, he could simply be in the Republic Senate while abstaining from all votes, or even more narrowly those related to the war. It's not unheard of IRL.

As a RL comparison point, consider that Kentucky continued to send its legislators to the U.S. Congress while the state was officially neutral. The neutral systems having representation in the CIS legislature would be a big finger to the Republic. That would essentially legitimise the CIS as an entity, something which the Republic finds untenable. The CIS does not have a problem with the Republic existing, while the Republic has a problem with the CIS existing, so the neutrals choose the apparent mushy middle of not legitimising the CIS while not participating in the Republic's war effort.

It does seem like Filoni and co. are making this up as they go along, but there is something solid in this "neutrality" story after all.

One thing that would make the Trade Federation's neutrality a bit more stomachable would be some portrayal of the CIS Trade Federation. Part of why the neutral TF is so jarring in TCW is the optics of a Republic-aligned TF during the Clone Wars while we know from AOTC that the CIS's "friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support" and are a huge part of the CIS. We have seen a minor TF official conduct some dealings with the CIS in Sphere Of Influence, but we haven't seen Nute Gunray since a brief S2 holographic appearance. He could be a potent villain in his own right. He still has his vendetta against Padme and he's no longer encumbered by Republic oversight. During the Clone Wars, he should be on a extractive rampage that makes Cecil Rhodes look like a shrinking violet.

 

Owww... this thread is like overload right now. x.x;

 

I saw this the other day, it looks amazing and I am really looking forward to it.

 

I agree 100%; I'm so sick of ten years of stories that I know will end with Order 66. Move into new, unexplored territory -- TCW worked best when it was doing its own thing, with unknown characters and stories. The Dark Times or New Republic (less likely to happen) eras are practically empty compared to the three years between AotC and RotS.

 

dp.

 

Lucasfilm created a cool "series" trailer on this EW page which summarizes all 5 seasons... and they have a few seconds of teaser footage for the Season 5 finale at the very end, with some foreshadowing of Ahsoka's fate:
http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/01/02/s...atch-exclusive-clip-from-100th-episode-video/

 

Lost child... interesting.

Gotta hand it to LucasFilm, they know how to make an epic trailer!

 

Lost as in fallen to the Darkside, or being on milk cartons?

 

That looks incredible. It looks like she's hiding from the clones and gunships...the final shot of the trailer reminds me of the Anakin shot from the Season 5 second trailer that looks like 1313. Very intrigued...

 

I wonder if Ahsoka is going to fall down that shaft and land on someone Kirara style.

 

Lost child... Hmmm.... the finale looks/sounds even more interesting! Does sound like she appears to be on the run though...

 

So we are getting more TCW? Why am I not impressed?

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I think its already in the TOS, that Official Star Wars Artists can spam their stuff all over LACWAC anytime they want to.