Official Thread: Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost

Well, I do think that the redemption is a little more believeable if he hasn't done a billion evil things over 23 years and then one good act saves him forever.

 

I think, as I have stated countless times, that it's obvious that Anakin is responsible for his actions. He does not physically die when he becomes Darth Vader. He loses his soul, but that's it. The body and the mind live on, which means that Anakin remembers everything he did as Darth Vader. The new robes that his ghost is wearing should be enough to convince you that he is not the same person as he was 23 years earlier. He has gone beyond Darth Vader.



Vader is Anakin
/LM

 

Agreed. Good post.

 

I understand that, but still. It's pretty hard to believe. Even when Return of the Jedi first came out - before we actually knew what happened when Anakin turned to the dark side, like killing children and stuff - there were critics who believed he got off too easy. That would go double now, if he was completely responsible for everything and then just did one good deed to wipe them all away.

 

This is absolutely right on!

That's why the lightsaber fights in the OT have more bite to them (for example, the duel between Darth Vader and OB1 in ANH). The dialogue between the characters speaks of the conflict, even though perhaps the duel itself is elementary in its choreography. In ROTS the fight between Darth Vader and OB1 on Mustafar falls flat because all they do after a while is swing around their lightsabers. The effects are expected to carry the scene, whereas a little more storytelling/dialogue would have injected the scene with the conflict we should have felt.

I would like to add that the audience also returned in droves because of the musical score. It's the kind of movie you can listen to over and over.

 

Thanks! Well, even though Lucas' words must be taken into account, it's really what we see in the movie that matters in the end. The only things I've read/heard him say about this is that Anakin, with the help of Yoda and Obi-Wan, retains his identity the way it was when he died as Anakin Skywalker and that he reverts back to who he was before he turned to the dark side.
Now, as I said(and as Christensen confirmed somewhere), I believe that Anakin, metaphorically, sold his soul to the devil, which means that he ceased to be who he was. He was still Anakin, but he didn't have his soul anymore, so he wasn't really Anakin, if you know what I mean. In a way, Anakin Skywalker died, even though he lived on. Then he was reunited with his old soul/spirit/identity when he turned back. The identity that he killed 23 years ago. In spirit, he reverted back to who he was before he turned to the dark side, but his mind remembered everything that had transpired while he was Darth Vader.

This might sound too complicated to be the case, but it really isn't. I'm just trying to explain how my view is applicable to what Lucas is saying. My view in itself is quite simple: Anakin's soul ceased to exist when he turned to the dark side and when he turned back, it returned to existance. That's why it hasn't aged. The new robes, though, symbolize the fact that he is now a new man, a being of light.



Anakin Skywalker was evil
/LM

 

Boba Babe said it best.

CGI is good as long as its not at the expense of the story, which unfortunately it was in AOTC and ROTS. It just lacks that emotional pull.

 

Sanctuary Monn wrote:

Be REALLY glad you skipped the DVD's-I almost passed out when I saw the emperor had ben replaced with the preequel version of the emperor. Sad, sad thing. And the Boba Fett voice change-I cant even talk about it.

LUCAS-Give us the original OT on DVD if you mujst keep rereleasing the OT every few months.

 

I'm surpised you didn't mention The Phantom Menace. At least Revenge of the Sith was a better movie than the others and still had a good story, in spite of all of the CGI, which is actually the best CGI and best implemented I've ever seen.

 

I actually really enjoyed The Phantom Menace, it had a good story and awesome villain-causing me to become invested in the plot.

 

^Now I know your crazy.That Emperor was a major improvement.How does that ruin the story,it doesn't

 

Is it just me or has GL, in trying to make Anakin seem MORE likable, actually made hi less? Before the PT, I had no problem buying that he makes full amends for his past sins by sacrificing himself to kill the Emporer and save his son (and his daughter, as it turns out). Seeing the PT, him killing the other Jedi and especially the Younglings, choking his wife, and slaughtering anyone else Sids told him to, leaves me thing he is as capable of redeption as Mengele or Eichmann ... ie not capaable at all. Killing the Emporer becomes merely a nice start on the road.

I thik GL has now rationalised this 'Ankin's spirit left his body' silliness to get around this, thereby making him not responsible for Vader's actions. But that's clearly NOT his 'vision' in ROTS: there is no clear line of demarcation where he's no longer Anakin and wholy Vader, regardless of what Sids calls him. He shows remorse at least twice (tears after killing trade fed guys - why anyone be sorry to see them dead anyway - and 'NOOOOOOOOOOOO').

This brings me back to me point about why the original ghost scene with Shaw works best: it's no muss, no fuss. He died, that his spirit. No need for some belabored attempt atrationalizing that Anakin's spirit left his body at some point, or that OB1 and Yoda chose that form for him (notwithstanding the fact that is the form in which they saw him kill the other Jedi and his wife.)

 

The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 221:

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says. "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."



/LM

 

Ah Lars, be careful when you quote GL. Assuming he is consistent in what he says is like assuming Chancellor Palpatine believes in democracy:

"And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children and especially by having children. Because that's what life is all about?procreating and raising children, and it should bring out the best of you."

--George Lucas

A classic case of GL showing how little he's really thought the whole saga through. One minute he says one thing, the next the opposite. And this is why so many of us are so against his mking changes: we've lost faith in him actually making things better. Instead he makes things worse. The issue of Anakin's spirit gets muddled. Han manages to escape Greedo not so much because he's so quick on the draw, but because Greedo either (1) is nearly blind or (2) has advanced Parkinsons, in either case leaving him unable to hit a stationary target two feet away when he's had ample time to line up his shot. Who knows, maybe tomorrow he'll decide he needed more Ethnic diversity in the saga, and CGI a black actor over Mark Hamill (SLJ has already been ina different role, maybe Lawrence Fishburn or Denzel Washington are available). Who cares that it's genetically impossible given that we've seen that Luke's parents are both white. An ethnically and racially unbiased universe is "part of my original vision, which technological limitations prevented me from bringing to the screen"!

 

When and where is that quote from? As I've said before, Lucas' vision has evolved, so that quote might be out of date.
Besides, it's what we see in the movies that counts in the end.



Old quotes are not reliable
/LM

 

Have the quote from Darth Sapient, the font of all GL quotes, you'd have to ask him. Actually, he used both our quotes in trying to justify the ghost change. I asusme it's a recent quote, though.

 

I see. Well, I think the best we can do under these circumstances is to take those quotes that make the most sense into account. It's all a matter of personal interpretation anyway.
For me, the quote I posted rings true. It just feels right and that's why I believe in it.
However, you might say that from a certain point of view, Anakin was redeemed: Luke loved him, despite all the things he had done. In Luke's eyes, he was redeemed, because Luke forgave him. It's possible that Obi-Wan and Yoda also forgave him.
His sins were never forgotten, though, so on the whole, in the big picture, he wasn't redeemed.

EDIT: Redemption really lies in the eye of the beholder. If someone forgives you, that person will see you as redeemed. To those who do not forgive, however, you won't be redeemed.



There is redemption in forgiveness
/LM

 

Found it. From an interview with Bill Moyers in TIME magazine, -- "Of Myth and Men", Time Magazine, April 26, 1999 (Source: Time.com). About the time he started on the prequels. So the idea of whether he could be redeemed changed 180 degrees while making the PT? Hrd to buy.

And BTW, to me, after seeing the PT, there is no way in hell he can be redeemed.

 

Then, from your point of view, he wasn't redeemed, because you're not ready to forgive him. I don't blame you, because I'm not so sure that I am, either

That doesn't mean that I don't understand why he did what he did, though. Who knows, maybe I would've done the same thing. But that doesn't make his decision less evil.



Redemption - it's your choice
/LM

 

My forgiveness is irrelevant: he didn't wrong me. Unfortunately, most of the people whom he did wrong can't forgive him either: they're dead. He killed them.

 

Your forgiveness is highly relevant to your view on whether Anakin can be redeemed, because your view is based on how you would react if it had happened in real life.
If your forgiveness was irrelevant, then you wouldn't care either way - Redeemed, not redeemed... whatever. But you do care, because you translate what you see in the films to what it would be like if it had happened for real. Just like you did now, you would say that those he killed can't forgive him and therefore, there would be no way for him to gain redemption in your eyes.



This is getting deep
/LM

 

So you're asking, would I forgive him, hypothetically speaking, say if I was the parent of a Youngling. Answer would likely be no. I would appreciate what he had done, and be thankful for it. But forgiveness is another matter.

Also, forgiveness and redemption aren't relly the same thing.

 

That's what I'm saying, yes.
Forgiveness and redemption are not the same thing, no, but in forgiveness, there is redemption. If you punch me in the face and I forgive you, then you will have been redeemed in my eyes.



That's all I'm saying
/LM

 

I had really been looking forward to buying a boxed set of Eps 1-6 on DVD when they came out, really only for te OT. No way in hell I'm buying them having heard of the changes.

The last time I saw the OT was when TPM came out. My wife had never seen the OT, so I wanted to have seen them before we saw TPM. I was the 97 SE on VHS. Before that, I had seen the Se in the theatres. As I've said, I kind of like the added Jabba scene in ANH, though Jabba doesn't look very good. It was just cool seeing something new from Star Wars. And I generally thought the touch ups were quite good, and that it was interesting seeing Coruscant at the end of ROTJ. But was this the edition in which Greedo shoots first? Hadn't paid attention at the time. I HATE that change, it's horrible! Someone needs to clue GL into the concept of self-defense.

At this point, I think our only hope is the possibility of time-travel, I'll take my Mini-DV camcorder with me and bootleg the OOT! When it happens, don't worry, I'll be sure to post when I get back, send me your address and I'll be sure to send you a copy!