*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

I think a lot of us are foregetting that Sidious is possibly the best "fortune teller" ever. Through the Dark Side Sidious can forsee events of the future. When you go through the prequels notice how many times Palpatine is in danger but does nothing to save himself. Why does he do this?
Sidious sees the many paths of the future and the best path for him to take is the one with Anakin as his apprentice.
Sidious was not trying to lose or win the fight against Mace, he was just stalling until Anakin shows up. He had to make sure Anakin was completely on his side because as he himself forsaw Anakin would be more powerful than he would and Sidious did not want a confrontation against Anakin.

 

People are also forgetting that Sidious has been controlling events since TPM.


He has masterminded his way to become the Chancellor.

He has masterminded his way in getting an army and getting emergency powers.

He has masterminded the whole Clone Wars.

He has masterminded his own kidnapping to see if Anakin is ready.

He has masterminded in covering his true identity in front of the wise Jedi.

But yet, oh no!! No way that he could have masterminded the Mace duel.

Even though it lead to his ULTIMATE goals in finally getting Anakin to betray his Jedi family, purging the Jedi, having a valid reason for the support of the Senate, and becoming an Emperor.

 

People probably thought that he could do this to any Jedi. This is why people have such high expectations for his powers- it was enjoyable to see the "wow" factor of his unstoppable lightning and fans desire that awesome power to be maintained.

I'm afraid I know of no one other than you who sees things that way, farrell. I know I never thought Palpatine could do that to any Jedi, because I knew there had to have been others on his level, except that they weren't around anymore. I didn't get any "wow" factor out of his lightning in the way that you did. You constantly cite other fans as believing as you do, but I've never seen anyone other than yourself actually post anything even close to what you're saying.

I think this is the best interpretation because the Emperor still seems insanely powerful the way he did in ROTJ, which was a crucial and appealing characteristic.

To you, farrell, to you. It's not an overly appealing characteristic to me, and I'm sure the same can be said of many others.

Sidious only appears godlike in ROTJ because there's no one on his level (whereas Mace and Yoda are in the PT and are on his level) and he has lesser Jedi around him (Luke and Vader). He never seemed insanely powerful to me. Rather, he just seemed like someone powerful that was just taking advantage of the reality that there was no one strong enough to stop him, and certainly not Luke.

I realize how important the idea of Sidious being godlike is to you, but you might want to consider the idea that it isn't so important to many others, and I'm quite certain it isn't so important to Lucas.

 

I'm afraid I know of no one other than you who sees things that way, farrell. I know I never thought Palpatine could do that to any Jedi, because I knew there had to have been others on his level, except that they weren't around anymore. I didn't get any "wow" factor out of his lightning in the way that you did. You constantly cite other fans as believing as you do, but I've never seen anyone other than yourself actually post anything even close to what you're saying.

Actually, lordmorpheus was the person who said that the Emperor's lightning had a "wow" factor in ROTJ. Luke was able to defeat Vader, who had trained his entire life. If Luke can defeat such an experienced force user, why wouldn't you think that Luke was better than well-trained Jedi? If Luke appears better than Jedi who have trained their entire life, it makes it seem like the Emperor is leagues ahead of the Jedi in terms of power.

To you, farrell, to you. It's not an overly appealing characteristic to me, and I'm sure the same can be said of many others.

Some people feel this way, but I've talked to other Emperor fans on this board who enjoyed seeing his immense powers in ROTJ and were disappointed by his portrayal in ROTS.

 

Count me as one who was disappointed with how GL downgraded the Emperor. GL (and many others) own interviews and quotes (see FarrelG) even show that it was important for the story and saga for Palpatine to be more powerful than even the best Jedi Master. Lord knows why their execution backpedaled. It really hurt the story the way GL presented this, particularly in the Mace vs. DS fight. It wasn't even so much the fight as it was his confirmation. The scene has a lot of ambiguity that lends itself to a yes vote which is why that was so hotly debated. Furthermore, if Yoda was on the level with Sidious, why didn't he and Obi Wan just go kill him together. It makes no sense if Yoda did not think Palpatine was incredibly powerful like the novel portrays (Obi firmly tells Yoda that DS killed four Jedi Masters to include the mighty Windu and even he and Yoda might not have a chance together thus they had to split in the hope that one would defeat their opponent). That makes sense and validates the decision Yoda makes. The way GL filmed it does not.

 

The fact that this debate is even possible after the DVD utterly baffles me. It was clear to me when I saw the film that Mace
defeated Palpatine straight up, because there is nothing on screen to suggest otherwise. It was clear to me that Palpatine was
trying to kill Mace with the lightning from the moment he used it and that it was deforming him. Now Lucas confirms this in the
commentary and some people still refuse to accept it.

It seems to me that some of the posters who espouse this peculiar and unsupportable theory have confused the meaning of certain
scenes. When we see the emperor fry Luke in ROTJ, that scene is not about 'wow the emperor is really, really powerful. He rules!'
It is about Luke surrendering his defences and refusing the path his father took. This is why, I believe, Lucas shows
us in the prequels that a lightsabre can handle force lightning.

If force lightning were really this unstoppable super weapon, then as a practical matter, Luke throwing away
his lightsabre means nothing. If he had kept it, it would not have made the slightest bit of difference. He was toast with or
without the sabre. Now that is not how we see the scene. We have been shown that Luke could have deflected the lightning if he
had kept the lightsabre. Thus the significance of him throwing it away is increased. He is throwing away the one thing that
could protect him. At that point, his fate is in his father's hands. The only thing that can save Luke is Vader
turning away from the darkside and in so doing, bringing balance to the force.

There is a similar idea at the heart of the Mace-Sidious duel. Mace clearly overpowers Sidious and Sidious is trying to kill
him with the lightning. There is no ambiguity in what Lucas says or what we see. The lightning does not work. Unlike Luke,
Mace keeps his sabre and Sidious can't get past it. Mace has to work hard to keep the lightning out, but while he has the
weapon, Sidious can do squat. If Sidious had kept blasting away, he would surely have ended up dead. The only person being
harmed by the lightning was Sidious. So the scene is clearly set up to mirror the ROTJ scence. Sidious' fate is in Anakin's
hands. The only thing that can save him is if Anakin turns to the darkside, becoming Vader and plunges the force
into darkness. That is what happens.

To me, the idea that Sidious is an unstoppable superbeing or that his lightning is a superweapon that can
overpower everything, is a complete misreading of what appears on screen.

 

Palpatine only had the wow factor in ROTJ, because Vader never did it and neither did Obi-wan or Yoda. Much less Luke. That's why it looked so good. In the PT, we see it's just another power of the Dark Side. One that can be defeated, negated or deflected.

Lucas exchanged the wow factor for plot factor. Meaning that when you watch it from 1-6 for the first time, you realize that Luke's screwed and it's up to Vader to save him.

 

Uh Luke threw away his lightsaber because he would not strike his father down, he did not know the emperor would deck him, nor did he know the emperor had such power. Also, in the ROTJ book it actually mentions Luke attempting to "block" the lightning seeing as it was made through the force, but he was overcome. Hence the line "Your skills are no match for the power of the darkside"

Luke was not defenseless when he threw away his lightsaber.

Now on another note MACE DID NOT WIN, MACE LOST. Now that we got that straight we can move onto something else. He bested the Emperor with the sword with the help of his cronies, then held his ligthning at bay intill the emperor feigned defeat, allowing for Anakin to intervien. Which led to the defeat of Mace Windu. Topic over.


I think the real question should be whether Mace would have lasted any longer had he not had his meatbags to take the initial blows.

 

No, but his defenses were not nearly what they would have been if he had kept his lightsaber, either.

And to equate RotJ Luke without a lightsaber with RotS Mace with a lightsaber is ludicrous. Of course the latter's defenses would be much better, and I doubt a duel between the two would last very long.

Whether Luke would have lasted against the Emperor's lightning had he kept his lightsaber is debatable, of course. His training still isn't nearly what Windu's is. Either way, there is no inconsistency.

The reason that question is not debated is that it isn't a serious question. Mace has been declared to be capable fo competing with the Emperor by Lucas himself. That kind of implies that Sidious wouldn't be able to finish him off in the first 10 seconds. You can speculate all you want, but it certainly seems that he would have blocked Sidious' blows if they were directed at him and not his "meatbags".

 

Sorry, double post.

 

I was, honestly, not that impressed with the powers of the Emperor - as I'm saying, Luke laid down his guard. We don't know if he could have blocked it with a lightsaber - the films doesn't say. I Luke is, as some of you argue, more powerful than the Jedi of ROTS then would have been able to. OBW blocked Dooku's lightening quite easily in AOTC (I know Dooku was not as powerful as Sideous, but OBW was not that powerful in AOTC either), and Windu blocked Sideous' lightening with a lightsaber - not easily, but he did it. It even seemed to me that Sideous was having the hardest time there. ROTS actually showed off Sideous as more powerful than I thought. I always thought of him more as a manipulator. He is the ultimate villain, I do not disagree there. But Yoda is the ultimate hero, and is equally strong.

To say that OBW and Yoda were weak and Luke had to redeem their sins or whatever is folly. OBW did lots and lots of good things in ROTS - Yoda failed because they drawed. Windu bested the Emperor.... the Jedi were not weak, but the force didn't favour them at the time.

 

Thinking that the Emperor was all-powerful was absurd.

But downgrading his powers the way people do it these days is no less absurd !

What is on screen is *not* obvious. It can be interpretated in different ways. Storywise, Sidious manipulating the Mace duel makes sense. So much sense, I don't know how people could overlook the possibility.

The other thing is that this duel is one of the less intense of all duel, especially once they end up in the main office. Palpatine falls on the ground, no arms cut off, just disarmed. He could send anything at Mace if he wanted the fight to go on : his desk, his throne, any statue, ... anything. Later in the movie he disarms Yoda in one second with lightning.

But Palpatine just lays there, ready to manipulate Anakin : "the jedi are taking over", etc ...

The lightning struggle maybe intense, but no more than Sidious' later struggle with Yoda. Sidious starts to transform immediately, his face turning rapidly into that of the Emperor. He is not even in a lot of pain. He just plays the weak for Anakin to intervene. From that point to the end of ROTJ he is the Devil himself, a whole new and different character. Does that make up look like scars ? Seriously ?

During his duel with Yoda, Sidious keeps laughing maniacally. He doesn't wipe the floor with Yoda. He just knows Yoda won't stop him. And he has fun sending handful of pods at him, lightning, whatever. Sidious keeps laughing until the very end, even when he is in a difficult position. Yoda looks worried. Because he realizes he won't beat Sidious.


Lucas' comments are vague. Knoll's, Coleman's, Mc Callum's, Mc Diarmid's, Gillard's, Pablo's comments on the matter contradict each other.

EU authors obviously don't know what to believe : in "The visual dictionary", Luceno said that Sidious clearly over powered Yoda. He also said that Sidious was diformed by Lightning. And also, on the same page, that Lightning revealed the sith lord's true face. Always two there are : persona and true face says Luceno !

In "Dark Lord", Luceno now says that Sidious' face is forever scarred by the jedi master's attack and he even states that Sidious was further diformed by Yoda's attacks !!!!!!! What the f... ???? So now Darth Sidious gets diformed *anytime* he fights ? How ridiculous ! How stupid ! `

His old witch's fingers and nails look like battle scars. Sure they do ! Sheeshhhh !

How could this man keep Dooku on a leash ? Or even Maul ? And Vader ? Give him the finger and his handsome face turns into a chimpanzee's ass ! Great vilain !

The debate is not over. The only solid clues we have come from the movie itself. Characterwise and plotwise, I think Sidious manipulating everything and everyone works better, but that's just an opinion.

Everybody is free to believe what he wants to believe.

 

Some people feel this way, but I've talked to other Emperor fans on this board who enjoyed seeing his immense powers in ROTJ and were disappointed by his portrayal in ROTS.
you don't really get to see the whole picture in rotj.
people just assume that lightning is an unbeatable weapon.

what we do see is that it's very effective against defenseless people.
we see this again in rots.

it's a powerful weapon indeed, and it's not something that's easily dealt with.
where's the fun in giving someone an unbeatable weapon???

and besides... the emperor actually seems more powerful to me in other departments.
almost invincible in fact.

his ability to manipulate and plot are far more interesting to me than any physical power he posesses.

 

Lucas' statement is not vague. He says Mace overpowers Sidious and Sidious tried destroying him with lightning beut he cannot because the lightning is deflected. It's only when Anakin cuts off Mace's hand that the lightning can find its target.

There's nothing vague about it.

Its the other theory that's vague.

 

y is this still going on? mace overpowered sidious, and sidious tried to kill him with lightning, but when that didnt work, well since anakin was there, y not use him? the point of that, is to show sidious taking the easy way out- similar with the yoda duel- it seems to be a draw until the end when sidious has a major look of feat on his face- then the blast knocks them both back but yoda is much lightning and all that good stuff so he fell farther- once again, sidious won against yoda because yoda fell and took off- both duels, he won the easy way

 

y is this still going on? mace overpowered sidious, and sidious tried to kill him with lightning, but when that didnt work, well since anakin was there, y not use him?

lol !!!!!

Yeah, that's the point of the saga. That's the point of Anakin's seduction. That's the point of Palpatine's careful planning.

Get beaten in a lightsaber duel, and, lucky bastard !, Anakin *happens* to be there, why not *use* him ?

Am I dreaming or what ?

Oh and yes, Palpatine took the easy way out in his duel with Yoda. He fought like a girl, he really did.

lol !!!!!!

...

 

First off, going to apologize... I THOUGHT I posted to this Thread yesterday, but when I looked back in, did not see the post. If I simply missed it, and this is a repeat, I do apologize for the imposition...

I have a feeling, given the passion with which the debate continues, that what I want to say is going to fall on deaf ears, but... I think, with all due respect, that folks are trying to apply "science" to something that just isn't scientific. What I mean is, there is all kinds of focus on power-ratings and the like, as if one simply should consult some sort of chart or table, as one might do in a role playing game, and WHAM - there is the answer about who MUST "win", etc.

I think sports provide a useful analogy. In any sporting event, one can find odds of victory for each team or competitor. The odds are meant to reflect, in theory, all of the variables that are in play in a particular contest... the relative "strengths and weaknesses" of the two teams (lets assume we are talking team sports here, but the same would apply to a championship fight!), any injuries to key players, trends from past meetings, the location of the game, the weather for game time, and so forth. The odds give some notion of who, given all the available pre-contest info, is most likely to win the game... the fight..the race, etc.

However, once the actual contest begins, the real world takes over. Things happen...*S* Strange bounces of the ball. Injuries. Flashes of brilliance by coaches or players... or lapses, sometimes suprising, in judgment or ability. Changes in weather. Odd calls by officials. Someone having a career great day, never to be repeated. Someone having a career bad day, also never to be repeated. Emotional reactions to situations. A million little things, and big things. And as a result, in the real world, no outcome is ever as certain as the odds might suggest.

In the case of Mace vs Sidious... I think that the film makers gave both characters "their innings" and treated both with respect. Niether was portrayed as a lightweight, or made to look silly. Fans of BOTH can, I think, walk away feeling "their guy" was given due weight. Sidious ran through three Jedi masters without breaking a sweat (granted, the element of surprise was on his side, but even so!). He had Mace in all kinds of trouble... to this point, we have never even seen Mace break a sweat. He lost his light saber due a fluke -- if the fight was not taking place by a window like that, he might well have Force-recovered it and gone on. In facing Mace, Sidious was facing one of the creme of the Jedi crop... it is not as if Sidious was portrayed as "blowing" it against a group of younglings, or an untested Padawan... he was going toe to toe with one of the very best the "Light Side" had to offer. This was a real heavyweight clash, and one that could have gone either way. Who knows.... if Mace and Sidious fought ten times, Sidious might win seven of those. But on this day, the way things broke, Mace got the better of him. Life works that way sometimes!

I see it the same with Yoda vs Sidious... in this fight, on this day, Sidious got the better of Yoda. Would he ALWAYS? I doubt it..they are too evenly matched. But on that day, in that environment, the way things played out, Sidious got the edge. Or consider Obi Wan and Anakin. Was Obi Wan "more powerful" than Anakin? I think the definitive answer is "NO". But did he beat Anakin -- on this day? Yes. In this case, we can probably say Anakin's pride and arrogance cost him (it clearly is not always about raw power). Look at Maul and Obi Wan... think it is pretty clear Maul was the more powerful of the two at that time...but again, he was undone by arrogance.

Guess what I am trying to say is... we all have favorite characters and rooting interests. And I can see "fans of Sidious" *S* wanting him to mop up the floor with everyone. I respectfully suggest, however, that in having Sidious "lose" to one of the most powerful Jedis ever, ON THIS GIVEN DAY, and IN THESE PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES, is not a sligh

 

i didnt mean that him taking the easy way out was the point of the saga

 

He tried different strategies on his way to become Chancellor, he failed the main one but Amidala gave him another option.

He discovered an army that was already in process, he didn?t plan it, he was lucky enough to know about it when the Jedi didn?t. He only had to kill Syfo-dyas and there would be nobody else to intervene.

He was helped by Dooku. In fact Dooku is who got the separatist?s loyalty.

He only has told the droid army to attack the capital and kidnap the Chancellor. He didn?t have to do anything but just keep sit down and wait for Grevious to kidnap him.

Once the Jedi can not sense him, it?s not a difficult thing to do.

It?s not the same thing at all. All the other plots were constructed along the years, and had a margin to manoeuvre. However, this way he would need to have an ABSOLUTE control over every single detail. He must know EXACTLY when Anakin is coming. He must know EXACTLY that Windu is going to kick him instead of cutting him with the saber. He must know EXACTLY that it will be lightning and nothing else but lighting what will make Windu change his mind. He must know EXACTLY that Windu is going to deflect the lightning the way he did. He must know EXACTLY that showing his true nature and attempting to kill Windu (no, no, no YOU WILL DIE) under Anakin?s eyes will not spoil the entire trick.

 

Count me as one who is satisfied with how GL has increased the story drama. I don't understand this need to have the Emperor all powerful. This is not Sidious' movie. Maybe GL should make a parallel movie focusing on Sidious and his immense power, the way Marvel creates parallel stories for his most popular characters, and then show the all powerful Emperor spending all the day throwing rays and destroying everything around so that people are happy. I like Yoda but I'm not so disappointed because he lost against the Emperor. Come on this is a story, not just one character.
Lord Vicious you interpreted the fight as ambigous. I saw the same duel as you and the idea of Palpatine allowing Windu to win didn't even cross my mind until I got home and read the forum.
Obi Wan had to fight against Anakin. They didn't have plenty of time. Furthermore you have the answer in the movie itself. Anakin defeated Dooku. So Anakin and Obi would easily defeat Dooku ? Wrong
Windu defeated Palpatine. So Windu and other three fighters would easily defeat Palpatine ? Wrong.
Obi wan defeated Darth Maul, so Obi Wan and Qui Gon would easily defeat Darth Maul ? Wrong
I guess no more explanation is needed on this point.

 

I was, honestly, not that impressed with the powers of the Emperor - as I'm saying, Luke laid down his guard. We don't know if he could have blocked it with a lightsaber - the films doesn't say.

Luke was on an even playing field with the Emperor because neither had a lightsaber. Neither of them had an advantage as far as weapons were concerned, because they both could only use the Force. The fact that the Emperor overpowered Luke shows that he has a much greater command of the Force. When you first saw ROTJ, did you even think a lightsaber could deflect lightning? This is why the Emperor looked so powerful to some people.

I don't think Luke could deflect lightning with a saber. The story works much better if he can't. For years, ROTJ was the only film we saw force lightning and had no reason to believe it could be deflected. This was great because the Emperor seemed awesome. Using force lightning was probably more than just a method to get Luke in danger, Lucas probably wanted to "wow" the audience with the Emperor's powers.

Seeing someone with such godlike powers in ROTJ was awesome, but the prequels have ruined this. Dooku shouldn't have used lightning (even McDiarmid was furious about this), and the Emperor's lightning should never have been deflected. This way the "wow" factor about the Emperor that was so enjoyable would be maintained. I think the "wow" factor is more important than plot factors. The story will be more exciting if you are in awe at the Emperor's powers, as it was in ROTJ.

you don't really get to see the whole picture in rotj.
people just assume that lightning is an unbeatable weapon.

It was better that way because people would hold the Emperor in higher esteem if they thought his lightning was unstoppable. They wouldn't be saying the Emperor isn't so powerful or that lightning isn't that great. I think that if I expressed my views about the Emperor's powers before the prequels, people wouldn't find them so far-fetched. The preqeusl have done more harm than good for the saga.

his ability to manipulate and plot are far more interesting to me than any physical power he posesses.

I think that force lightning is far more interesting than any manipulation skills. If the Emperor was portrayed the way he was in ROTJ, both camps could have been satsfied- his force lightning would be magnificent and he would be a master manipulator. The way ROTS went, one characteristic of the Emperor (manipulation) was maintained, but a charactersitic that some consider much more important (immense power) was completely undermined.

But downgrading his powers the way people do it these days is no less absurd !

Absolutely. That's why I feel the prequels have done such a terrible job at portraying the Emperor. Its from those films that people form their basis for downgrading the Emperor.

 

Palpatine is not perfect. Most of the things he could do were possible due to the corruption of the republic, and allying with other greedy characters. He can?t control every single detail. He couldn?t know that Anakin would get married with Padme. He couldn?t know that he would have nightmares about her dying. He even tried to kill Padme in TPM and AOTC (what a terrible mistake if he had succeeded). When he first met Anakin in TPM he made the decision to turn him to the dark side, but he didn?t think ?ok, this boy will marry queen Amidala, who will not be a queen anymore but a senator, then he will dream she dies, then I will fight with master Windu?) He didn?t exactly know how he would be turned, he doesn?t have absolute control over Anakin. When he saw the chance he seized it that?s all. Attacking Windu was not the only way for Anakin to be turned. I believe Anakin would have fallen anyway.
Furthermore after Lucas words I don?t understand how this part of the thing is still being discussed. I thought we had overcome the ?it was all set up? theory, and now we were dealing with ?he was really trying to destroy Windu but in the end changed his mind?. It seems we are going round in circles.

 

To me, the Emperor looks more powerful in ROTS than in ROTJ. The only thing he did in ROTJ was throwing blue rays at an unarmed person who didn't even try to counter it. Immediately after he was easily and ridiculously picked up and exterminated like my old broken TV that I dropped to the rubbish dump. To me he didn't look very powerful.

In ROTS he really fights and shows amazing power.

 

Seeing someone with such godlike powers in ROTJ was awesome, but the prequels have ruined this

There was nothing to ruin. Your perception may be "ruined", but certainly not mine.

Dooku shouldn't have used lightning (even McDiarmid was furious about this), and the Emperor's lightning should never have been deflected.

Is it necessary to say this over and over again, farrell? We know that Ian didn't like it. We got the message about a dozen or so times ago that you said it.

I like that the Emperor's lightning was deflected by Yoda, because it showed that Yoda was just as much a master of the Force as Sidious, and that the Force can be controlled by anyone powerful enough to use it properly. Sidious used it one way and Yoda used it another. They cancelled out.

Lucas gave you more of the picture, but you simply don't like the rest of the picture that you were given.

It was better that way because people would hold the Emperor in higher esteem if they thought his lightning was unstoppable.

Why? I hold Sidious in high esteem because of his powers of his manipulation and his mastery of the Force, not because of his lightning.

The way ROTS went, one characteristic of the Emperor (manipulation) was maintained, but a charactersitic that some consider much more important (immense power) was completely undermined.


Power comes mainly from the mind. For all the Emperor's "immense power", it didn't do him any good when his mind slipped and allowed Vader to take advantage of him.

That is where you fail.

 

I agree with all of the above.

In ROTJ, I was very surprised when he started shooting lightning (as it's a power we had never seen), but considering Luke had just completed his training, and that he was unarmed, I was just "half wowed"!! Especially after seeing him go down like a punk!

In ROTS, we get to see what Sidious can do with a lightsaber (like killing 3 Jedi masters in 10 sec), we get to see his amazing telekinesis power, and also how powerful his lightning is compared to that of Dooku (even if Yoda was able to block it, he wasn't able to totally deflect it and he had to use all of his force power to do so).

What more do you need Farrellg. You said that it wouldn't matter if Lucas had chosen to portray Sidious as almost omnipotent because it's science-fiction. But even in science-fiction, if we want some suspence and action and all that, the ultimate villain must not appeared too God like because it wouldn't make the whole saga very credible. And I think Lucas made Sidious dangerous and powerful enough like that. I mean he was able to resist an 800 year old Jedi who had an almost complete knowledge of the force and had a somewhat religious connection with it. If Sidious isn't really God like in ROTS, I think we can say he's at least angel like (or demon like I mean )

regards