*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

We know that Ian didn't like it.

Ian's opinion is important because it shows that a great stage and film actor feels that Lucas made a bad artistic decision in regards to force lightning.

Lucas gave you more of the picture, but you simply don't like the rest of the picture that you were given.

Sometimes knowing less about a character is better than knowing more. In the Emperor's case, this is especially true. In ROTJ, he had more of a mystique of incredible power, at least in some people's minds. I know some people thought that other Jedi could rival him. After seeing Luke defeat an experienced force user in Vader, did you think Luke was better than Jedi who had trained their entire life? We had one experienced force user to compare Luke to in combat, and Luke was better. This is why some people thought the Emperor's powers were far beyond any Jedi after he electrocuted Luke.

I like that the Emperor's lightning was deflected by Yoda, because it showed that Yoda was just as much a master of the Force as Sidious, and that the Force can be controlled by anyone powerful enough to use it properly. Sidious used it one way and Yoda used it another. They cancelled out.

Perhaps the film should have only showed Yoda blocking lightning with his hands, since he's supposedly the greatest wizard of the light side. Having lightning deflected with a saber really hurts the Emperor's image because some people believe that anyone could block lightning. This is very bad because some people think Luke wouldn't be in danger if he had a saber against the Emperor. Its much better to think that the Emperor is so much more powerful than Luke, and the only way he could be defeated is through Vader's betrayal.

Why? I hold Sidious in high esteem because of his powers of his manipulation and his mastery of the Force, not because of his lightning.

It doesn't hurt the Emperor for you because you don't care about lightning. For myself and other Emperor fans who enjoyed the lightning, it degrades the quality of the films. Star Wars has a lot of mystical elements, and force lightning was the greatest IMO. The saga would be more exciting if lightning maintained this mystical aura and seemed immensely powerful. Mastery of the mind isn't the only important aspect. Especially since these are fantasy films, its important to see great supernatural powers. Force lightning was wonderful in the OT because of this, but was ruined in the PT.

Edit: But even in science-fiction, if we want some suspence and action and all that, the ultimate villain must not appeared too God like because it wouldn't make the whole saga very credible.

But they could have portrayed the Emperor so that his lightning is as effective as it was in ROTJ. He wouldn't appear any more godlike then he was in that film, and the audience would still know he can be killed.

 

FARRELLG as I posted on page 31 the emperor does seem very powerful in ROTS. You didnt reply so maybe you should go back and read it. Either belive what I wrote or let this damn thing ruin the saga for you. Its your choice!

 

Farrelg I understand you are an ardent supporter of the Emperor - good for you. But remember that Luke did in fact throw down his weapons refusing to fight no more. So not only did the Emperor electrocute a defenseless man, he also attacked a man who had resignated a fight. Not that impressive. I think the PT's did a good job showing that the Emperor was not invincible or all powerful, as you seem so absurdly to think.

The most powerful power of the Emperor was his manipulative skills. In Vader he found someone who could fight his battles for him. If Yoda did disarm Sideous, Sideous lost two lightsaber duels - perhaps he didn't want to loos a third. (this is NOT fact, just an idea)

His manipulative skills was amazing - more amazing than perhaps any other power in the Saga, and THAT is what is so neatly portrayed in the PT's.

 

Ian's opinion is important because it shows that a great stage and film actor feels that Lucas made a bad artistic decision in regards to force lightning.


But you say it over and over and over again, in seemingly every post you make. Why is this necessary? We heard you the first dozen times.

 

It was better that way because people would hold the Emperor in higher esteem if they thought his lightning was unstoppable.
people???
i think more actually enjoy villains who're not perfect and invincible...

The preqeusl have done more harm than good for the saga.
there are certain changes in perspectives i wasn't happy with initially either.
it's a process...
i may be dissapointed at first, but enjoy how the PT/OT relationship challenges the viewer to let go of assumptions and perceived truths about the saga.

interestingly letting go is not only one of the main themes in the saga, but also a condition for understanding the saga imo.

I think that force lightning is far more interesting than any manipulation skills.
fair enough. we all like different things...

If the Emperor was portrayed the way he was in ROTJ, both camps could have been satsfied- his force lightning would be magnificent and he would be a master manipulator. The way ROTS went, one characteristic of the Emperor (manipulation) was maintained, but a charactersitic that some consider much more important (immense power) was completely undermined.
he's not exactly a weakling...
he's still immensly powerful.
and i'm not sure both camps would be happy with an invincible sith lord.
there needs to be a little weakness in every character.

what would happen to the tension if we knew he was unbeatable?
sort of like watching a race and knowing with absolutely certainty what would happen throughout the race.

 

Hi all... back from ban-sville.

To me, there has always has to have been an element of "Emperor's new clothes to", well, the Emperor.
I always thought that the point of ROTJ was that he was losing his grip, and he was losing his grip because something greater than his power was threatening to eclipse him and his control over Vader - compassion.

VADER: (after a beat) My son is with them.

EMPEROR: (very cool) Are you sure?

VADER: I have felt him, my Master.

EMPEROR: Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader.

Vader knows what is being asked.

VADER: They are clear, my Master.

EMPEROR: Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for them.

VADER: (skeptical) He will come to me?

EMPEROR: I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and then you will bring him before me.

VADER: (bows)As you wish.

He is losing his control, because he can only control Vader through fear.
Palpatine cannot sense Luke on Endor - Vader can, because there is a tiny shaft of hope and compassion breaking through the clouds of fear.
Luke awakened something in Vader in TESB, something that can free Vader from Palpatine's control.
All Palpatine is doing, IMO, is reasserting his power - he has not "forseen" the true events, what Palpatine "forsees" is basically a threat.
Luke is bigger than that and does not bow to Palpatine's vision of how things should be - and that is when the chain is broken.

To me, Palpatine only has power if people are willing to give it to him.
That is the whole point of ROTJ - he could electrocute Luke all he wants, it doesn't matter how impressive it looks or how effective it is: there is something far greater that Palpatine will NEVER have, and that is what triumphs in the end.
Compassion.
Humanity.

If everyone stood up to Palpatine, then he would have nothing.
That is the irony, his power is destrcutive - all he can do is destroy things.
He wanted Luke to take Vader's place, and Luke rejects his overtures.
All Palpatine can do is try to destroy him.
And then the next guy stands up to him - Vader.
Palpatine kills him in a hissy fit too.
Then everyone else decides "no, I'm not afraid of you - I don't want to be part of your Empire, I'm not afraid to die if that is all you can threaten my with if I leave your club."
And Palpatine has to kill them all one by one.
He has to kill the whole galaxy.
Then what is he left with?
Alone, in charge of a galaxy full of smouldering, blackened piles of rubble.

You see, that is not actually what Palpatine wants - he does not want destruction - he wants control.
Of everyone and everything.
Greed.
But when people stand up to him, he loses control and can only destroy.
That is why the Dark Side can be more "powerful", yet still be defeated and humbled by the light.

Palpatine's power is all relative really.
It all comes down to fear.
Without that, Palpatine has nothing.

The fact that Mace overpowers Palpatine, makes the fact that Anakin chooses the Sith based on a lie even sweeter, as far as I can tell.
It's like "argh, they were that close from doing away with him, but he was so good at manipulating Anakin, he fell for all of that saving Padmé BS."

 

i think more actually enjoy villains who're not perfect and invincible...

Maybe people who root for the heroes feel that way. As an Emperor fan, I enjoyed seeing how he could dominate Luke and don't want his powers to be undermined. Other Emperor fans have expressed similar sentiments.

and i'm not sure both camps would be happy with an invincible sith lord.
there needs to be a little weakness in every character.

what would happen to the tension if we knew he was unbeatable?
sort of like watching a race and knowing with absolutely certainty what would happen throughout the race.

I see no reason why both camps wouldn't be satisfied. The Emperor's lightning was unstoppable in ROTJ and no one said that he didn't show enough weakness. His lightning could be just as effective and his character wouldn't be any more powerful than he was in ROTJ. This would satisfy the people who enjoyed the "wow" factor of his lightning and wouldn't make him invincible because he was killed by Vader.

The fact that Mace overpowers Palpatine, makes the fact that Anakin chooses the Sith based on a lie even sweeter, as far as I can tell.
It's like "argh, they were that close from doing away with him, but he was so good at manipulating Anakin, he fell for all of that saving Padmé BS."

I don't think so. The Emperor's lightning should be so strong that no one can stop it, and the Emperor can only be killed if people refuse to listen to him and throw him down a shaft. That's the way the Emperor was portrayed in his confrontation with Luke, and it made him a wonderful character.

FARRELLG as I posted on page 31 the emperor does seem very powerful in ROTS. You didnt reply so maybe you should go back and read it. Either belive what I wrote or let this damn thing ruin the saga for you. Its your choice! whistling

I read your post, Harvywallbanger, and I'm glad that you consider the Emperor to be powerful. Unfortunately, some people think he seems less impressive than he did in ROTJ and that his lightning isn't all that.

 

Get_in_Gear I agree with exactly. The fact that Mace bested Sideous is actually an argument that Sideous' greatest power was his manipulative skills. He was not more powerful than either Yoda or Windu - the dark side was then really not stronger, or if it was the lies made it stronger.

 

Maybe people who root for the heroes feel that way. As an Emperor fan, I enjoyed seeing how he could dominate Luke and don't want his powers to be undermined. Other Emperor fans have expressed similar sentiments.
i suppose that's where we disagree.
i don't approach film in quite that way.
some do obviously, and i'm fine with that.

i have favourite characters as well, but i don't exactly root for anyone.

The Emperor's lightning was unstoppable in ROTJ and no one said that he didn't show enough weakness.
you mean it seemed unstoppable...
clearly it's close to unstoppable against a defenseless opponent.
and if it really was unstoppable, then how do you explain that vader is able to pick up the emperor?

this never changes when we get to rots...

it seems more powerful i suppose in relation to rots, but not unstoppable.

 

Farrellg even if every force user is born with a specific potential in the force, we learned through the saga and through Yoda's affirmations that in order to use the true power of the force, one simply has to believe (by the way, this is actually one of the things that made the concept of the force an almost religious one).

So even if an extremely powerful villain is a good thing for the dramatic side of the saga, it would ruin what we know about the nature of the force if Sidious could electrocute everybody else, including an 800 year old Jedi master who knows pretty much everything about the force. Having a high midichlorian rate is important, but we were thought that the more you believe and learn to communicate with the force, the more powerful you will become.

Even if science-fiction is actually fiction, the concepts used in the saga have to work according to some basic and stable principals. And we know that using the force is an art that can be developped over time. So Sidious electrocuting Yoda or Windu like he did with Luke wouldn't follow the logic established by Lucas around the whole concept of the force. He had to expect some resistance from the 2 most powerful Jedi in the saga, even against his legendary force lightning.

Also, We can probably assume that in order to block the lightning with his lightsaber, Windu had to use the force, that's why he was struggling. So the lightsaber blocking Sids' lightning doesn't destroy the character or his power for me because I think it's obvious Windu needed a great deal of force power to resist, and I don't think he could've resisted a lot longer. And the same goes for Yoda, who's the grand master of the light side I have to remind you.

But it's a good thing that you now seem to be acknowledging what's in the movie..and you have the right to disagree with Lucas of course. But It's a lot better for the debate to try to explain why Lucas has made those choices instead of refuting what we've all seen.

And I still think Sidious is the ultimate villain, in terms of power, intelligence and manipulation skills.

Regards

 

Get_in_Gear I agree with exactly. The fact that Mace bested Sideous is actually an argument that Sideous' greatest power was his manipulative skills. He was not more powerful than either Yoda or Windu - the dark side was then really not stronger, or if it was the lies made it stronger.

Sidious is a master of manipulation, I agree with you there. However Sidious was more powerful than Yoda and Windu, the OS explains this and GL has said the dark side is stronger.

 

However Sidious was more powerful than Yoda and Windu, the OS explains this and GL has said the dark side is stronger.
that's all good.
sidious could be more powerful than both mace and yoda put together for all i care...

i think most people who claim that mace got the better of sidious don't really care anyway.

 

and if it really was unstoppable, then how do you explain that vader is able to pick up the emperor?

He was able to pick up the Emperor while being hit by lightning. Vader didn't actually block the lightning, so no one stopped the Emperor's lightning in ROTJ.

I remember hearing people talk about how the Emperor was all-powerful before ROTS came out and how he was going to show amazing powers in the film. Apparantly those people wanted to see an extremely powerful Emperor.

So Sidious electrocuting Yoda or Windu like he did with Luke wouldn't follow the logic established by Lucas around the whole concept of the force. He had to expect some resistance from the 2 most powerful Jedi in the saga, even against his legendary force lightning.

Not necessarily. Vader was an experienced force user and Luke was more powerful than him. The story could have been written so that Yoda and Mace aren't any stronger than Luke. It would make sense that they can't block lightning if Luke cannot.

Also, We can probably assume that in order to block the lightning with his lightsaber, Windu had to use the force, that's why he was struggling. So the lightsaber blocking Sids' lightning doesn't destroy the character or his power for me because I think it's obvious Windu needed a great deal of force power to resist, and I don't think he could've resisted a lot longer. And the same goes for Yoda, who's the grand master of the light side I have to remind you.

I've theorized that Jedi have to use the Force to deflect lightning with a saber, but some people think that a lightsaber is a physical weapon and anyone could block lightning just by holding out their saber. I think this idea is what makes the Emperor look less overwhelming. People assume that any lowly Jedi could handle his lightning.

If Yoda was the only person who could deflect lightning with his hands, that might be all right. You could say that he's the greatest wizard of the light side and the only person who can handle lightning. But seeing lightning blocked by a saber, even if you have to be strong in the Force and lesser Jedi presumably wouldn't be able to do it, isn't good for the character.

As I said, some people make the assumption that any Jedi could block lightning with a saber, which ruins the wow factor of lightning. If only the top knotch Jedi such as Mace and Yoda could block lightning with a saber, that might also be acceptable. But the way the film was shot, it allowed some people to speculate that anyone can block lightning with a saber (even if it isn't true) and makes the Emperor seem less powerful.

 

The Emperor is, perhaps, "more powerful" than Yoda and Mace.
And Vader.
The Dark Side is "more powerful".
The Empire was more powerful and stronger than the Ewoks.
The Empire was more powerful and stronger then the rag-tag band of Rebels.
The Trade Federation was more powerful and stronger than the Gungan Army.

But being stronger and more powerful does not mean this...
[image=http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6376/rotjwv1216no.jpg]
...kind of thing cannot happen to you.

In fact, IMO, it's one of the themes at the saga's moral core - that power and pursuit of power will eventually lead to your downfall.
Power, and specifically the kind of power Palpatine wields, is nothing but destructive.
No good can ultimately come of it.

 

He was able to pick up the Emperor while being hit by lightning. Vader didn't actually block the lightning, so no one stopped the Emperor's lightning in ROTJ.
you're missing the point...
vader could take the lightning long enough to throw the emperor down the shaft.

 

I've theorized that Jedi have to use the Force to deflect lightning with a saber, but some people think that a lightsaber is a physical weapon and anyone could block lightning just by holding out their saber. I think this idea is what makes the Emperor look less overwhelming. People assume that any lowly Jedi could handle his lightning

Well I don't agree with them. If all one need is a lightsaber, there's no point in showing Windu struggling like that. So Farrellg, I'm with you on this one. Even with a lightsaber, they need the force to block Sids' lightning. It's obvisous!!

regards

 

I don't consider Sidious is more powerful than Yoda at all. In the final lightning struggle, when they both were using all their power, the Emperor was unable to overwhelm Yoda and was clearly losing ground. He maybe more powerful than Windu (I think he is not) when it's about force powers, but lightsaber skills count very much too, and it's an advantage that may cancel Sidious supposed superiority.

 

Exactly, he stopped the lightning... PERMANENTLY!

 

vader could take the lightning long enough to throw the emperor down the shaft.

Yes, but he was able to cause Luke a lot of agony with the lightning and it wasn't deflected. The Emperor could have done this to the prequel Jedi if the idea of a saber deflecting lightning wasn't introduced.

 

I don't think it's so obvious. Obi Wan simply rised his saber and it easily blocked it. He didn't seem to be using the Force at all. a lightsaber is pure energy, it's logic to believe it can block lighting. The saber blocks blasters you, the jedi just have to intercept their trajectory. Windu was struggling because the lighting was pushing him back.

 

As I said, some people make the assumption that any Jedi could block lightning with a saber, which ruins the wow factor of lightning. If only the top knotch Jedi such as Mace and Yoda could block lightning with a saber, that might also be acceptable. But the way the film was shot, it allowed some people to speculate that anyone can block lightning with a saber (even if it isn't true) and makes the Emperor seem less powerful.




I think it's not that simple. Sidious disarms Yoda with Lightning at the end of their fight in the rotunda. So the power of Sidious' lightning against a lightsaber, even in the hands of the greatest jedi master, is clearly established.

What ruined the lightning for me was OB1 casually deflecting it in AOTC. Dooku's lightning weakened the impact of that dark side power in the eyes of the audience.

And Mace doesn't seem to block it easily or without pain.

I don't think that the movie itself diminishes Sidious' powers.

The movie leaves everything opened to interpretation. No official sources have been able to clear things up. Pablo's word on it and the OS databank entries are obviously EU/rushed marketing theories, in no way inspired by George and his creative team.

 

Well I would say that Sidious unable to disarm Windu clearly contradicts that. You are holding on one side of the coin and literally ignoring the other one.

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

The Emperor could have done this to the prequel Jedi if the idea of a saber deflecting lightning wasn't introduced.
he did the same to mace as he did to luke...
mace is defenseless, just like luke, and i can assure you that mace is suffering in his final moments in the saga.
even more so than luke...

ironically, the lightning mace receives is more powerful than the bolts luke gets in rotj.

 

I think it's not that simple. Sidious disarms Yoda with Lightning at the end of their fight in the rotunda. So the power of Sidious' lightning against a lightsaber, even in the hands of the greatest jedi master, is clearly established.

What ruined the lightning for me was OB1 casually deflecting it in AOTC. Dooku's lightning weakened the impact of that dark side power in the eyes of the audience.

And Mace doesn't seem to block it easily or without pain.

I certainly agree with this. I don't think lightning can simply be blocked by holding out a lightsaber, but some people do. Even if the Emperor couldn't disarm Yoda every time, the fact that he did it once does show that a lightsaber isn't 100% resistant against force lightning. Perhaps lightning would be more impressive if Dooku never used it.

Obi Wan simply rised his saber and it easily blocked it. He didn't seem to be using the Force at all. a lightsaber is pure energy, it's logic to believe it can block lighting. The saber blocks blasters you, the jedi just have to intercept their trajectory. Windu was struggling because the lighting was pushing him back.

But if the lightning was pushing Windu back, that could mean that lesser Force user wouldn't be able to hold it off with a saber and would be overwhelmed. Blaster shots are very small, but lightning covers a much greater distance. You might say that this merely requires suspension of disbelief, but the way a lightsaber blocks lightning sounds more logical if Jedi are using the Force. By concentrating on the Force, Jedi can help make sure that all of the lightning bolts move toward the saber. Obi-Wan seemed like he was concentrating when he blocked Dooku's lightning. If lightning can always be easily blocked with a saber, then there would be no reason for the Emperor to try to hit an armed Jedi with lightning.

Edit: Well I would say that Sidious unable to disarm Windu clearly contradicts that. You are holding on one side of the coin and literally ignoring the other one.

Not necesssarily. Windu is close to being Yoda's equal. If you have to use the Force to help you deflect lightning with a saber, a lesser Jedi might have been overwhelmed and disarmed much more easily than Windu or Yoda could be. Seeing Yoda disarmed by lightning suggests someone far below him in force power could easily be overpowered by lightning, even if he has a saber.

he did the same to mace as he did to luke...
mace is defenseless, just like luke, and i can assure you that mace is suffering in his final moments in the saga.
even more so than luke...

We had no evidence a lightsaber could deflect lightning in ROTJ, so I think it would have been better for the Emperor if he could electrocute Mace while he still had a saber. I don't think Mace was suffering more than Luke because he was hit by lightning for about 19 seconds, while Luke was hit for longer than 60 seconds, excluding pauses. Even if the lightning used on Luke was of a lesser intensity, I would think its more painful because he was hit for a much longer period of time. If the Emperor is using a lower level of lightning on Luke, the reason for it would be to make his death as slow and painful as possible.

 

I don't think it's so obvious. Obi Wan simply rised his saber and it easily blocked it. He didn't seem to be using the Force at all. a lightsaber is pure energy, it's logic to believe it can block lighting. The saber blocks blasters you, the jedi just have to intercept their trajectory. Windu was struggling because the lighting was pushing him back.

Dooku is a lot less powerful than Sidious. That's why. Also, as for the lightning simply pushing Windu back, I think in the novel The energy was reaching Windu's body, but because of the vapaad technique, he was able to remain unhurt. This could be an indication that against Sids' lightning, you need more than a lightsaber because some of the energy still manages to reach your body!!


Jedi can help make sure that all of the lightning bolts move toward the saber

I agree again. A lightning stream is far from being a straight line. If a Jedi doesn't use the force, I don't see how some of the lightning wouldn't eventually reach his body.


regards