*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

One thing that does interest me though. GL says it was always suppose to be that Mace came in and overpowered Sids. But what I don't get is... how long ago was "always". I mean, was this in the original draft 30 years ago, or was it in the script once he started getting into details for the PT? Anyone know?

 

30 years ago sure not because the PT script was not even begun to write, only some general explanations about the some characters' origins.

I believe he refers to the previous version when the Jedi went to arrest the Chancellor without knowing that he was a Sith Lord, but becasue he didn't want to give emergency powers back to the Senate after Grevious' dead.
Hey now that I'm realizing, it would have looked great if the Jedi had entered to arrest the Chancellor without knowing at all that he has powers of the force, and then he suddenly picks the saber, jumps and... hey I'm realizing another thing. As long as I now the fight was not entirely reshot, only the kick and Sidious taking his saber out of his sleeve so... the way the Jedi originally freeze and seem to be caught off guard is because it was shot a way they were really caught off guard, which makes more sense and then they don't look so stupid.

 

I think he referred to the original shooting. From what Pablo Hidalgo writes in his set diary, the whole scene was a lot different originally:


"It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?

George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.

This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in.

"Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments.

So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."

When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?"

At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27.

So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?"

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon139.html

 

Yeah, sounds good to me. Thanks for the link

 

So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."

So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?"
-Pablo Hidalgo


Great ! Most interesting !

-So, originally, Palpatine was faking to force Anakin to side with him.

-In the revised scene, we don't know if George changed his plans for Palpatine. The reason behind the reshoot was that it didn't work to have Anakin witness the whole confrontation without intervening. Makes sense.

-Sidious claiming he is weak is obviously a lie says Pablo. He's pleas for help are a lie, a trap. Pablo says that much.

-Now, the only thing left uncertain is whether the fall into the corner was a lie.

-The only thing that makes Pablo doubt it was a lie is that it puts an "awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing".


Now does it ?

* Palpatine falls just when Anakin is about to enter the office. Could Palpatine sense Anakin coming ? You decide.

I think he could. Especially if you realize that Palpatine did all he could to make sure Anakin would come to make sure the jedi don't kill him. That's the whole point of his seduction of Anakin in ROTS.

Given what we know of Palpatine in the starwars saga, is it such a stretch to imagine he could have foreseen Anakin would come, and sensed him seconds, if not minutes, before he arrived ? You decide.

The duel lasted until Anakin was about to enter. At first Sidious wipes the floor with the posse, then swiftly pushes Mace back into the main office. Then it slows down. And Sidious falls just when Anakin reaches the antechamber of his office. Could it be a trap ? Could it be an act ? Again, you decide.

I say it was originally written as a trap. A lie.
And nothing indicates that the rewrite and reshoot changed that. The rewrite and reshoot just made it easier for Anakin to come in and make a choice. More believable. It gave the scene more credibility. Other than that, I think that George's original intentions remained the same in the reshot scene : a trap. And Mace windu walks in it head first. As Anakin does.

Sidious is quite safe from your pitiful little jedi

 

actually, it was the oppiste- it wasnt orignally written as a trap- i just listned to the commentary and GL says that " originally, we didnt have the part where the emporer gives up, originally when anakin was there, the duel just got more intense until anakin breaks down and saves him"


now, GL said that now the emporere gives up, but im not sure exactly what that is refering to, i think he just means gives up his powers? or maybe he does mean that he gave up the duel.....- wut do you guys think?

 

Sideous was no fool. He realized he was loosing to Windu - fair enough considering the powers of Windu. To amend for that he manipulated Anakin. I think it is THE biggest power not only of Sideous, but it is one of the strongest and most effective powers of the saga.

I honestly think that Sideous gave up the fight, realizing that he couldn't defeat Windu. Windu had the advantage. He still had his lightsaber, and for the looks of things it seemed that Sideous was having the worst time with the lightning.

 

actually, it was the oppiste- it wasnt orignally written as a trap- i just listned to the commentary and GL says that " originally, we didnt have the part where the emporer gives up, originally when anakin was there, the duel just got more intense until anakin breaks down and saves him"

That's not what Pablo says.
The part that was added was Palpatine faking weakness after the lightning. Before that, the struggle kept growing more intense until Anakin intervened.
That's what George refers to in the commentary.

 

oooo i thought he meant that the duel, as in saber duel got more intense, isnt that what he meant?

in any case, actually, my whole point of view has changed on this now- GL says that sidious gives up. thats vauge though, what exactly does sidious give up? the duel? or losing his powers?

if he means that he gave up the duel, then i would still say that palpatine was trying to kill mace and the whole duel was real but then he sensed anakin outside the door and then realized" oo welll, anakins here, i can kill two birds with one stone"- but if its giving up his powers, which doesnt make much sense "giving up his powers" that makes it sound like he completely gave away his powers- i have no idea now

 

Hey stop, don?t go so fast. Pablo says that he WOULD BE INCLINED TO THINK that Palpatine was faking. However Lucas says that the part where Palpatine fakes was ADDED and was not in the previous version.

Yeah, and Palpatine manipulated Windu?s mind through the Force so that he went for a kick.

"It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace?

George Lucas ?Mace overpowered Sidious?

Gl and the official site says that Mace overpowered Sidious. Pablo Hidalgo says that he WOULD BE INCLINED TO THINK THAT IN THE PREVIOUS VERSION it was a fake, and then all this means that Sidious allows Windu to win. Come on, this part was already explained, I thought everybody had admitted that he didn?t choose when to be kicked. Let?s move along, please.

Just the opposite, because Anakin was already on Palpatine?s side and no trick was needed.

Nothing except GL words.

Yes, and Lucas states that Anakin SAVED Palpatine.

If all this means Palpatine was faking, I?m going to ask my teacher to teach me the language again, because it seems every word means the opposite of what I thought.

He gives up when he says ?I can?t hold on any longer, please don?t kill me?

 

just because someone "saves" someone, doesn't mean they needed saving. Did palpatine need saving when Luke pulled his lightsaber on him in ROTJ? Or did he already know that Vader would interfere?...the answer is obvious.

RS77 edit: Watch it.

 

Any Jedi can use a Lightsaber to deflect the Lightning. Obi-wan has no trouble with it because Dooku uses one hand and is not as powerful as Palpatine is. Mace has trouble with Palpatine who uses two hands, doesn't hold back and is stronger than Dooku. But it's all Mace can do to hold it back. He can do it, but it's a genuine struggle. Yoda had the unfortunate luck of landing at the same time Palpatine blasted him which is why he lost his grip on the saber, resulting in it being lost. Thus Yoda has to use the Force to hold it off and then create a feedback that nearly kills the both of them. Luke, if he hadn't thrown his saber away, he could've deflected it.

What evidence do we have that any Jedi can block lightning with a lightsaber? If you have to use the Force to make sure all the lightning moves toward the saber, a lesser Jedi might not be able to do it and would be overwhelmed by the Emperor's lightning.

 

responding to a post from above, anakin saved palpatine in the orignal version- well thats what the commentary said

 

[

Just because someone saves someone, it doesn?t mean he needed saving. Just because Lucas says Windu overpowered Sidious, it doesn?t mean Sidious didn?t allow him to overpower, just because Sidious was trying to destroy Windu, doesn?t mean that he was not make his lighting deliberately weak, just because the night is shorter than the day, it doesn?t mean the day is longer than the night? Enough of this, don?t you think??
If Lucas had said Palpatine allowed Windu to win, was making the lighting deliberately weak and was not saved because was faking I seriously doubt we would be struggling to turn the meaning such a way.

If someone is saved, it BEYOND ANY DOUBT means that he was in real danger. Otherwise he is not SAVED. Anakin breaks down and does what he does. Anakin intervenes and puts an end to the situation. Those things may be interpreted. Anakin saves him means he was saved. He was in real danger. He would have died, or he hasn?t be saved, he has just be helped, but no way saved. Furthermore even if Anakin saves him is not 100% definitive but only 95 % definitive Lucas is an absolutely absurd commentary maker if he says Anakin saves him when in fact it is ?Palpatine is not in troubles and is faking?, Windu overpowers Palpatine when in fact it is ?Palpatine allows Windu to disarm him? Palpatine is trying to destroy Windu with his powers, when in fact it is ?Palpatine is making his lighting deliberately weak to not harm Windu and force him to change his mind?. Someone should teach Lucas to speak English, because it?s obvious he doesn?t know how to.

Palpatine was undoubtedly saved in ROTJ. If Vader hadn?t intercepted Luke?s saber, he would be immediately dead, no matter if he planned the situation himself.

So Anakin saves him, leaving aside the argument whether he put himself intentionally in that situation or not, necessary implies that without Anakin intervention Palpatine would be doomed.

 

i have to agree with a poster above that says just because he was saved doesnt mean he needed saving- im not saying he wasnt saved, and im not saying that he faked the duel, because i kno he didnt, im just saying without anakin there, the chain of events would have been quite differnt, and personally i think that palpatine wouldve eventually won against mace

 

In the original version where Palpatine didn't give up, didn't fake and kept on shooting lightning. So if Palpatine hadn't given up and had kept on shooting lighting he still would have needed Anakin to save him. It's pure logic. Unless things have changed so much that even the nature and power of the characters is absolutely different, something we know is not true because Lucas himself explains that the reason why he changed that was to make Anakin's conversion more believable and to show how he really wants to do the right thing, arrest the Chancellor and then pump him for information.

 

I don?t know if you have to use the Force to redirect the lightning towards the saber. Obi Wan didn?t seem to be doing that at all. He just rises his blade and easily blocks it. Furthermore it doesn?t make much sense. Redirecting the lightning doesn?t seem to be a hard thing to do. It must much easier than blocking and absorbing it. They don?t need a lightsaber for that. They can simply redirect it and make it hit the wall, or the floor. Windu could have continued redirecting it out of the window instead of towards his lightsaber once it was no more. Yoda could have redirected it somewhere else instead of blocking it with his bare hands.

 

Star wars 1977-1983,

I love your lastest posts! Chimpanzee's ass, LOL.
but i see you as a powerful advocate of your ideas and
hope you stay at posting and counterpointing some of the
ideas of the no crowd. Good work!

 

How can you say that I seem to ignore his posts, when in fact I have replied to him point by point??

 

How many times do we have to say it? DO NOT CALL OUT SPECIFIC PEOPLE. Talk about the FILMS not the FANS.

 

How can you say that I seem to ignore his posts, when in fact I have replied to him point by point??

Sorry ethan. The posts immediately following gave me that impression.
I thought I was on a later page than i was. I just read a bunch of subsequent posts and see your right (about the posts i mean!) :>)

 

How many times do we have to say it? DO NOT CALL OUT SPECIFIC PEOPLE. Talk about the FILMS not the FANS.

Sorry. No hostility intended. The posts right afterward seemed to ignore his so I was trying to encourage him. I was trying to ID the posts that I was referring to, not attack the posters. No specific ID's again from me.

 

farrellg, you are continuing to slide off topic by discussing ROTJ Emperor, Ian McDiarmid and all forms of other fringe related comments on the Emperor. I'm asking you right now to keep your comments limited to The Emperor as it concerns this duel, and use facts to back up your evidence as you debate it. No more ROTJ Emperor, Ian says... etc.

Why? Will others that use various quotes from various sources supporting their positions not be allowed to do so as well? He is one of the few around here who does not flame or even remotely bait in his posts. Others may not agree but his posts are always polite. At least what Ive read.

 

MasterJazz,

Thank you for your nice post ! Most kind of you

People do not ignore my posts.

They just ignore the fact that I'm right and they're wrong.

But it will change. It will change ...


Jedi Ethan,

I don't think that Palpatine letting Mace overpower him means that he mind tricks Mace into kicking him in the face. Mace is a powerful opponent, Sidious just has to let himself be caught off guard and he knows Mace will disarm him or corner him one way or another.

What happens is that Mace overpowers Palpatine. That's what we see. That's what Mace sees. That's what Anakin sees. But why does it happen ? And how ? Because (IMHO), Palpatine has to appear as the victim of power hungry jedi. In a scene before, Palpatine says to Anakin : "of course you should (turn me over to the JC), but you're not sure of their intentions, are you ?". "If the jedi destroy me ..."

That's the whole point of Sidious' manipulation of Anakin and the Senate.

Anakin has no problem with the jedi arresting Palpatine, as long as he is sure of their good intentions. Palpatine's plot is to convince Anakin that the jedi are no better than the sith anyway. And force him to make a bad decision. Which is not too hard.

In an old draft of the prequels, back in the 70's, the jedi were exterminated because they started investigating in the senate, trying to find and arrest corrupt senators. They were seen as traitors.

Here, the jedi are exterminated because they try not only to arrest but also *kill* the supreme chancellor : Palpatine says so when he declares his new Empire ("this attempt on my life ...). And it's also the rationalization Anakin uses for himself and for Padme after he joins Sidious ("I've seen master windu try to assassinate the supreme chancellor").

The lightning is just there to make sure Mace changes his mind and decides to kill Palps (before that he just wants to arrest him) and to put Anakin in a position where he has to make a choice : save Padme, his marriage, or give it all up. Playing the weak, dying man, Palpatine forces Anakin to act. Quickly. Mace knows how dangerous Palpatine is. Maybe he realizes Palpatine is manipulating everybody. By playing the weak, Sidious makes Windu look like a cruel, cold man motivated by other motives than just justice and security. There is no more black and white in Anakin's mind. Just foggy grey ...

There is no way it was not all part of the plan. Palpatine knew this moment would come : he allows Grievous to be found and destroyed. He knows the jedi would ask him to give up emergency powers. He reveals himself to Anakin and insists that the jedi plan to overthrow him and take control of the senate. If they do kill him, any chance of saving Padme would be lost ... Everything he orchestrated in ROTS leads up to that very moment when his life appears to be threatened by a jedi, and Anakin has to make a choice.