*OFFICIAL THREAD* Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious Discussion v3.0

Of course Sidious is powerful. So are Dooku and Mace and Yoda. They are all masters of the Force and a confrontation between any pair of them could go any way.

It's all about variables and timing. Has anyone actually seen two martial arts masters fight? It's always a 50/50 on who could win, and the fight is usually over in like 2 seconds.

Everyone in ROTS loses one saber fight.

 

Arrrrrghhhhhh!

Mace is not more powerful than the Emperor.
He just overpowers him and has him at his mercy, okay?
Top Trumps stats do not obviate this occurance.
He doesn't have to have bigger batteries in his lightsaber to do this, and he doesn't have to have more midichlorians coming out of his earholes or whear a nicer cloak or anything.
He just overpowers him on the day - and that is that.

Palpatine can be more powerful, and Mace can still be about to save the galaxy.
It doesn't matter, because, ultimately Mace dies and Palpatine lives and takes over the galaxy.
Is that not enough?
Palpatine is ****-hot.
And let's clear this up once and for all, the PT makes Palpatine look 100% better than he looked in the OT.
He is a blooming evil mastermind in the PT.
In the OT he was just some guy who was alluded to who turned up in the final act to be so overconfident and blind he got picked up and dumped down a reactor shaft by a cripple.
In ROTS he gets overpowered by a Jedi Master, one of the Council's head triumvirate, no less, in his prime.
It is not a big deal - he still wins though cunning manipulation and thinking on his feet and pressing the right buttons earlier on.

Regardless, Lucas says Mace overpowers Palpatine - moreover, he says he ALWAYS did so - in the version of the script which Pablo suggested he "might not have done" and in the version of the script which Pablo though he "might have done".
The one we see on film.
The one in which Mace overpowers him.
Which ALWAYS happened in both versions, as it turns out... according to Lucas himself.

You do not "let someone" overpower you.
They either overpower you or they do not.
You do not overpower someone and then try to kill them - that makes no sense at all.
Overpower means overpower.
Lucas says overpower and he means overpower - there is no reason to presume otherwise.

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness in order to force Anakin's hand - after which Palpatine kills Mace." - Making of ROTS, pg 204

The Jedi Master is winning - Check. 'Nuff said.
Palpatine seizes the occasion - Check. Note: not finally puts his well-organised plan into fruition. Or acts as was planned. He SEIZES THE OCCASION. Ergo - acts in direct response to unexpected circumstances thrown into his lap. That sentence can not be explained any other way. He seizes the occasion. Grabs the bull by the horns. Takes the otter by it's shoulders. Whatever. It is an "occasion" and it is "seized" - not created, accounted for, planned, devised, schemed, brewed, wangled or anything else of that ilk.
Exaggerate his weakness - Check. Exaggerates. Not fakes. Not creates the illusion of. Not manufactures, builds, feigns, facsimiles, instigates or devises - but EXAGGERATES. IE: It existed already and was played upon, emphasised, highlighted, drawn attention to or trumped up. WEAKNESS. Was exaggerated.

So, if this quote, which we had pretty much at the start of the year was lacking in insight and truth, Lucas had a chance to set the record straight on his commentary track.
Instead he chose to reiterate this exact passage in more definite terms.
Forgive me, but I really can't see how an argument to the contrary can be accomodated - Mace overpowers Palpatine. Palpatine exaggerates his weakness to bring Anakin in. He has to bring Anakin in because without him he remains overpowered and at Mace's mercy.

 

remember, VADER was the muscle...sids was the brains.....nothing's changed.



Palpatine has been confirmed and re confirmed to be much more powerful than OT vader.thats why vader is the muscle,because he is too weak and pathetic to take out someone like the emperor and become the brain himself.

 

why did you just say this? my point was that the emperor really didnt do much in the OT. he was nothing more than the brains behind the scenes.

 

Get in Gear,

you're breaking my heart.

Can't you just leave us room enough to believe what we want to believe ?

Anyway, I must admit, good post. Difficult to argue with you.

Except that Lucas' vision of that scene is not the one I prefer, nor the one that works the best, IMHO. It's quite convoluted and illogical if you think about it. But then, life can be so ...

 

Well, YOURS is another in a long list of opinions that i have come to treasure on these boards.....what is YOUR take on the scene....please explain, AND allow us to rebut.

 

becasue you made it sound like if palpatine needed vader to do the physycal job when we know he is way more powerful himself and he is not only a thinker.

 

GIG, that was a long writeup to say that Mace overpowers him and is more powerful in saber battle. I have shown where the average viewer might not see this so I agree with you there. However for the SW fandom that delves into the story a little more, GL has committed a grave mistake IMHO (and others). I am not even arguing anymore that GL didn't give Mace the win. He did. And that mistake (the root of which was even having a second Jedi, read Mace Windu, be at Palpatine's level) has set in motion a chain of events for the SW fandom that I have laid out that again, IMHO, really does a lot of damage to the saga. If you don't think so, that is cool. I am sure there are people out there that like that Greedo shoots first too.

GL could have avoided all of this if he had just a) come out that Palpatine threw the fight. That would have done no damage to any character. Mace fans would have had nothing to worry about because the character of Mace is not too important anyways. He would have fought well and died. No big deal

or b) have Mace win the duel (still a mistake IMO) but had the lightning part of this go like the book. Mace is clearly about to die by his own saber being pushed back on him when Sidious "loses" his power forcing Anakin's decision. Minimal damage to Sidious' character and still the clear decision by Anakin because he buys the weakness ploy of Palps.

My theory is that SLJ's role in this ruled out either of these good options (it is practically confirmed in the same documentary that has killed the no vote) and thus the damage is done.

We are just lucky that Anakin really wanted to be with Padme and that Han moved his head about an inch when Greedo shoots.

 

Too powerful to lose a fight, but not powerful enough to not see a guy coming up behind him? I personally can't go with that. POV of course

 

Anybody have kids?

Anyone see two kids fight and one overpowers the other in a shoving match and the one who is shoved down always makes it seem like he was launched about 50 in the air and came crashing down on his head, exaggerating how bad it was just to get more sympathy from mom or dad and manipulate them into reacting harsher to the kid who won the shoving match?

Yeah, that's the Mace vs. Sidious fight.

 

becasue you made it sound like if palpatine needed vader to do the physycal job when we know he is way more powerful himself and he is not only a thinker.[/quote]

Oh, this is not what i am saying. what i AM saying is that his pattern of behavior hasnt changed from one trilogy to the next. he RARELY...hell, NEVER did his own dirty work in any of the movies. until the jedi brought the fight to his face, and he had no choice. in fact, i believe that had they not brought the fight to him, he'd have never lifted a single energized finger in battle whatsoever!!! he did VERY well, but was clearly up against equal opponents in mace windu and yoda. he ended up on top in both situations, but he WAS dealing with two who are "on par" with him.

 

You know, I always thought the emperor was strong and deserved some respect, but the guys a punk as I have come to see.

What makes you think the Emperor is a punk? This is one reason why the Mace scene and the film in general hurts the Emperor's character. The OS and novel say Mace's posse are three of the greatest Jedi Masters, so killing them is an incredible feat, especially when Palpatine was greatly outnumbered.

 

Well, that's the last thing I want to do.
You are all SW fans - you are my brothers.

Well, this is where I get confused.
I'm just some guy on the other end of a telephone line.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should think, and I hope no one else is doing the same.
But, by the same token, if I see someone post something that just flatly contradicts the facts, then I am going to bring this up, because that's the way I am.

It boils down to this - how on Earth can what Lucas spectacularly avoids saying suddenly become closer to the truth than what he quite clearly does say?
Answer: It can't!

Now I'm not saying you can't believe what you want to believe - frankly I just don't have the power to leap down your modem and indoctrinate you into my way of thinking.
But I can, and will, point out which roads lead to facts.
And try to steer you on the right path.

But arguing is good.
It is the foundation upon which all progress is made - I don't know why or when it became such a dirty word.

But you must see that he kind of gets the final say, it being his story and all...

Exactly.

 

Oh, that is simply my opinion that I have come to have after losing respect for Ian because of outrageous quotes in which he shows a lack of education (speed of sound compared to speed of light anyone? If you don't get that, check out the quote in Farrellg's sig) and also after watching all the movies there's just nothing other than being a manipulative coward that I could admire.

 

not need for the tone chozn1

1- i hate the EU.i simply think they werent some pathetic losers for the fact that they were council members and all that.

2- biased ?? nah.i simply dont think mace should so easily overpower him,i never said i didnt like mace to win but just not so easily.

3- when i said insignificant fight i meant vs yoda when he loses his lightsaber

4- never said all powerful but in par with yoda and mace.he loses against one and beats the other.he is not some pathetic useless old man as you are trying to say he is

5- not seeing vader coming from behind him is called distraction not weakness.we know he is much more powerufl than vader so vader killing him doesnt imply that he is weak or that vader is strong,it only implies that vader wouldnt buy his BS anymore.

 

Tone? You mean the tone that I returned in kind? Look no further than the first line of your response. Sarcasm and cussing... albeit I don't know that word and I'm quite interested in finding out what it is.

Not too late for some edits though if you like...




EDIT: I edited the response

 

Listening to the high esteem in which you all hold sidious, i am wondering....is it just HIM that you love, or does this somehow, have something to do with your views of jedi/sith in relation to power and the force.

 

im super mega ultra sorry if you were offended by that first line.it was only meant to be sarcastic

 

Icons speak a thousand words Lordmorpheus


No hard feelings SR70

 

oh, dont get it twisted, i have no qualms as to where my loyalties lie. i am just asking the question though.

on another note, i read all of the EU and because of it, i get a bit more of the stories than those who chose not to. so to me, mace windu is not quite the "go-nowhere" character that some of you believe. just an opinion tho.


EDIT: i am also in it for a good story. whether it was mace windu or ki adi mundi or even Eeth Koth, having a jedi in position to end sids reign before it began was excellent storytelling AND added that needed drama to the scene. THEREFORE, IF you watched the saga from the beginning, meaning episode 1, then that scene is a sticking point....some intense drama going on...."will anakin make the right decision? or will he choose to side with sidious to save his wife?"

 

The way I see it duels are decided by fate, circumstances, some might even say the will of the force. I am of the opinion Sidious could overpower mace 6-7 times out of ten but this one time he didnt, Mace came out as the victor, he overpowered sidious, how much clearer can the GL express himself. NO one is invincible not even sidious, hes not even all powerful if he was he wouldve owned both yoda and mace.

 

some poeple havent been reading my posts carefuly

yes i like him.see my signature,i do like siths a lot more than the jedi but....

i dont worship him,i dont think he is some unbeatable demi god but i dont like mace overpowering him so easily.they could have made a good fight like the yoda vs sidious one but with mace as the victor and i would be glad but why did they have to make palpatine look like some pathetic youngling in the fight if he is suposed to be equal to mace ?? thats my only point.


edit : of course no hard feelings chozn1

 

Oh, that is simply my opinion that I have come to have after losing respect for Ian because of outrageous quotes in which he shows a lack of education (speed of sound compared to speed of light anyone? If you don't get that, check out the quote in Farrellg's sig) and also after watching all the movies there's just nothing other than being a manipulative coward that I could admire.

The actor is separate from the character. I don't think that losing respect for McDiarmid has any relation to the character of the Emperor. If there's nothing about the Emperor to admire other than being a coward, then I think the Windu duel has done more harm than good for the Emperor's character. Prior to this scene, I think it would be easier to admire the Emperor for his immense power.

You do not "let someone" overpower you.

Of course you can. If you let someone defeat you, then you allowed yourself to be overpowered. This Emperor could have done this during the saber duel.

Edit: Listening to the high esteem in which you all hold sidious, i am wondering....is it just HIM that you love, or does this somehow, have something to do with your views of jedi/sith in relation to power and the force.

I think the Emperor is popular because he's the most evil character and was portrayed as extremely powerful.

 

Sidious is a good character and Ian is a great actor. His line to Anakin that one must study all aspects of the Force to understand it makes total sense to me. The book expounds on this more, and I like that the Sith do not limit their abilities. I have always liked the Emperor because of his shadowy nature (whole dark cloak thing) and when he threw lightning at Luke, I was like "holy crap, he can do that!!" That is why ROTS really damages the saga for me. It is not even the Yoda vs. Sidious battle. I am actually ok with that one being close (and with Yoda having a limited ability to handle the lightning) although it needed a definite ending with a definitive win by Sidious IMHO.

The Mace vs. Sidious battle for me (and moreso GL's "confirmation") is my main issue. It think it was a very, very bad decision. I have joked around using the Greedo analogy, but it really is on that level for me.

I bought Shatterpoint, and I didn't like it. That certainly has to do more with the author (Vaapad ), but it did nothing for Mace's character for me. Damaging Sidious' character in favor of his makes no sense to me.

 

No Lordmorpheus, what I wasn't referring to yours. I was basically talking about a couple of Emperor icons that have both been warned today.


Edit: If the actor and the part are seperate then why do you try and impose his personal views on the role as canon frlg?