Old Jedi order vs New Jedi Order

Since this contains eu i feel its suited for this board, my question is which was the better order ?

i honestly like the old order better i really seem to respect them as jedi more than the new order and as a whole they had better fighters.besides luke i cant really seem to like most of the new jedi. to me they struggle more with the force than the old order .and it seems in a short period of time more jedi fell to the dark side than the
"lost 20 " the old order lost in all of its yrs .dont get me wrong the new order has its good points they have produced very noble and strong jedi but on a whole i think the old order produced better jedi what do you think?

 

The New Order, with the possible exceptions of the JAT Jedi (plus Kam? Was he there?) are not Jedi as I would have labelled them in the Old Order.

Thus far, I'd have to be more impressed with the Old Order (minus Vergere) than the New.

 

I personally find the OJO to be unlikeable; for the following reasons.

-->Lost in traditions that, to an extent, seem pointless
-->Distanced from the public and like it that way
-->Take children away from parents and families to bring them up as Jedi
-->Various other aspects I found pointless; for example, I do dislike some aspects of the Jedi code, which seem almost to teach self-denial
-->It isn't all right to love, but it's all right to 'procreate' (an attitude I find repugnant)

However, the NJO I would criticise;
-->Lack of cohesive direction
-->Lack of *any* self-control
-->Masters for no apparent reason that I can see (e.g. Mara)
-->Let teenagers push to the forefront

The comparison is difficult, though; an order of, say, 10,000, with an order of less than 100; one has enjoyed stability for millennia, the other only instability for a generation.

 

-->Lost in traditions that, to an extent, seem pointless
-->Distanced from the public and like it that way
-->Take children away from parents and families to bring them up as Jedi
-->Various other aspects I found pointless; for example, I do dislike some aspects of the Jedi code, which seem almost to teach self-denial
-->It isn't all right to love, but it's all right to 'procreate' (an attitude I find repugnant)

I'd agree with most of those criticisms except the "taking Children from their parents" one, its more of a case that the Jedi were given the children rather just took them. Jedi are looked up to and I'm pretty sure most parents in the GFFA would love their children to become Jedi.

The Old Jedi Order, through all their faults, were still Jedi and knew their duty. Plus they kept the harmony with the Force, as was their job.

The New order doesn't seem to have that perspective. Too many like Kyp Durron using the Force as more of a tool and not as a partner.

And just as the Old Order relied too heavily on their traditions and the Jedi Code, the New Order don't even pay attention to Jedi traditions or the code (not even using it as a guide).

So I guess I prefer the Old Order. Its sad because I know Luke would have created a New Jedi Order that was better than the Old and much better than the one we have seen.

 

you are right the old order's code was strict thats why i said thw order has its strong points you can love and be adventrous but that discpline from the order made jedi more noble and better .yeah i do feel bad for luke the new order has no true foundation most jedi comes up with something new everyday

 

The two jedi orders are very different. I don't prefer one over the other. NJO is still in it's infancy. I think it's a little unfair to compare it to the old order that was a round for thousands of years. MAybe the older order had some problems with people turning to the dark side during it's infancy. Also if you look at some of the clone wars EU matterial, a lot of Jedi are turning to the dark side. As for fighting ability, i think the old order was more polished. Luke didn't have Mace Windu to teach him vappad. In fact i think the average NJO jedi could beat the crap out of an old order jedi. The NJO Jedi have far more experiance dueling then the old. Every time the NJO jedi fight a Vong it's a Duel. The old Jedi only fought like that on rare occations.

Please watch the profanities. Consider these boards "PG" for the purposes of discussion. Thanks!

 

i understand your point but we dont have history on the whole old order since its begining. most of the knowledge we have on the old order is from its prequel days. so i say its even in the amount of time to discuss the two orders .also this njo is in in its infancy yes ,but it's a bad infancy ,because if it does not get fixed while it's young there will be problems in the future a house that wont fall down has to have a strong foundation .and the new order does not have that. to many jedi are on different pages ,and i think the old order can battle the vong anyday not all of them but most of them .and mace windu by himslef could slice up the whole new order in a one on one battle . the only one that might hang is luke and thats maybe

 

I'd agree with most of those criticisms except the "taking Children from their parents" one, its more of a case that the Jedi were given the children rather just took them. Jedi are looked up to and I'm pretty sure most parents in the GFFA would love their children to become Jedi.

Maybe on some systems, but on many systems, an opposite view was held - Jedi were mythical boogeymen who stole babies from their parents and whisked them away. Jedi are respected on worlds where people see Jedi in action, but on many worlds, no one has seen a Jedi and many are convinced that they don't even exist.

in the most recent issue of Republic, the defenders of Jabaiim (sp?) believe the Jedi are baby-stealers.

Taking children away from their parents even if it will mean a better life for the child is not something that most galactic citizens would do easily.

(the mace windu issue of Tales has a story about a family who hires a bounty hunter to retrieve their force-sensitive child from the jedi temple)

 

What the Jedi are seen to be doing, and what they are actually doin are too different things.

The Jedi don't just heartlessly take the children away. They do ask prior consent.

 

What the Jedi are seen to be doing, and what they are actually doin are too different things.

The Jedi don't just heartlessly take the children away. They do ask prior consent.

but public perception is based on what they are seen to be doing. "prior consent" might seem a little less than freely-decided-upon when armed supermen come to your house asking you to give up your kid in a now-or-never offer. (no we can't take her next year, she'll be too old).

i would imagine that for every set of parents who are elated that their child is taken to be a jedi, there is also a set of parents bitter that they gave up their child, whom they can never contact and who will never know them.

 

i agree dp4m most of the new jedi i would not even give them the title of jedi in the old order .that was my whole point of starting this thread i have a hard time of looking at the new jedi other than luke as being truly a jedi .to me the new order is just a bunch of force users that do what they want. i dont even no why they call it an order it has no order in it

 

If Vergere's teaching is accepted, and Jacen's inaction becomes a standard for the NJO, then I'd have to say the old order.

The old order may have had some problems and some pointless traditions, but at least they understood the Force and what it meant to be a Jedi.

 

I agree that the NJO isn't unified. A lot of jedi do just go around doing what ever they want. Most them don't behave like typical old order jedi. I'm not saying that i agree with there attitudes and actions, but i do have to ask, if the old Jedi order was so wonderful how did it allow it self to get exterminated? I think this is a question that hopefully will be answered in Episode 3. I'm also interested in seeing how the NJO changes after the war. I'm hoping that there will be a strong jedi concil. Also the old order jedi don't go around and steal peoples children.

 

Don't think there's much chance of that happening. Jacen and Vergere aren't exactly popular with the Jedi at large the way Anakin was. In fact, Kyp mentions he could shrug off Jacen's death with little difficulty.

 

<<If Vergere's teaching is accepted, and Jacen's inaction becomes a standard for the NJO, then I'd have to say the old order.>>

It isn't accepted. According to the POTJ sourcebook, we are told that Vergere follows the teachings of the potentium - which according to Obi-Wan in Rogue Planet is not accepted by the Jedi Council.

 

In fact i think the average NJO jedi could beat the crap out of an old order jedi.

And I heartily disagree. Corran Horn can't even lift a rock. i don't think he could pull an "Anakin Skywalker" and plunge hundreds of stories and catch a sahip going hundreds of MPH. The NJO could fight other soldiers well. They never spend anytime mediatating, or trying to understand the force. The define themselves more with words and titles than with actions and deed.

See my tag.

Palpatine betrayed the trust of the Order. He fooled everyone. It doesn't make them weak, it makes them victims. (To say they were so weak is like saying you were weak if some sniper shot you in the head at a great distance. Would it make you weak? No just unsuspecting, and innocent.)

Vader could wipe the floor with the entire NJO and get home in time for lunch.

Think Corran Horn against Mace Windu. Or Tahiri. I think not.

 

its nice to see my thread get replies i could not log in as effortless skill this morning the mods me told i had to wait so i signed in as vapaad_master for the time being .i love that name thoe but i started as effortless_skill so thats what i will remain but anyway back to the rumbling .



exactly it does not make them weak at all i mean plapy was a force user if one man can corrupt a whole galaxy then he is pretty strong!the vong were not force users they are invaders ,and i think the old order would have sent them back to mommy crying if that happned in the old republic days. the njo besides luke and anakin cant hang if they took time to undersatnd the force instead of trying to use it for thier own needs they would be okay. the use of the force is a gift and meant to be respected, if you have the power to use it .i garantee if most of the new order fought on geonosis plenty more than the old order would have died.and like i said before its not fair for luke cause i know this is not what he wanted the new order to be about. does the njo need a purge?

 

The NJO would beat the crap out of the OJO. The OJO learned how to deflect blaster attacks with their lightsabers, and used them against droids.

NJO, they fight Yuuzhan Vong, some pretty tough fighters. If they can beat them in a duel then they can certainly beat the OJO.

The only advantage the OJO has is numbers.

 

vader could wipe the floor with the entire njo and get home in time for lunch

vader was a sith lord were are talking about jedi knights here not sith,jedi don't work like that.

 

The New Jedi Order are, IMO, superior to the Old Jedi Order in nearly every way except for numbers. The Old Jedi Order lost dozens or hundreds of members to the Sith during each generation that the Sith were a tangible threat. Jedi left the order to be businessmen and politicians and criminals. Within the first years of its inception, it is known that the Jedi lost a great many members to the dark side, and only barely pulled through.

The New Jedi Order has lost a very small amount of members to the dark side, and has a very good track record of returning fallen Jedi back to the light. (Brakiss and Kueller are the only ones who I can think of who weren't turned back, but there probably are others) The NJO hasn't had a major schism, and every time they have come close, they have been able to resolve their differences with negotiation instead of with weapons, which the OJO seemed fond of doing in its first 20000+ years of existance.

The New Jedi Order have faced more and greater threats than the OJO have at any point in their existance. Between total extinction at the hands of the Emperor and the Empire, and then with the Vong invasion, the Peace Brigade, and the fact that they were hunted by nearly everyone in the galaxy, it is a wonder that so few of their members have turned to the dark side, and that they could pull through everything that they have come up against. When the Old Jedi Order was faced with stormtroopers and a Sith Lord, they were virtually wiped out within a couple of years.

Every near-Jedi, Jedi Knight, and Master in the NJO is a skilled combatant, and many of them are duelists who could wipe the floor against Mace Windu, Dooku, or Anakin Skywalker (One of whom has beaten Anakin Skywalker, too) Many of the NJO Jedi are ace pilots, skilled battle strategists, motivational speakers, and inspirational leaders. They have countless hours of real-world combat experience against a threat greater than anything encountered by the OJO, and they have never allowed themselves to atrophy.

The NJO Jedi also spend much more time contemplating and meditating over the nature of the Force, what consitutes good and bad, what actions are appropriate, and how they can further utilize the Force to help attain their goals. The OJO have not yet (to my knowledge) been seen doing any of this, and have been shown spending much time meditating over whether they can get away with their plans without falling into what some dusty old book defines as being of the "dark side".

The NJO is also much more practical. They maintain good relations with the government (whenever possible, that is) they keep an extensive network of contacts and allies, and aren't too arrogant to ask for help from others. The also allow themselves more freedom, both physically and psychologically, by not restraining themselves with rediculous tradition and regulations like the aforementioned "You can't love, but you can procreate"

The NJO are more spiritual, philosophical, and rational than their predecessors. They are much better in combat, whether it be in space or on land, they don't entangle themselves in government but retain enough freedom to do what is right when it is right, and they have a much better track record then their predecessors when it comes to falling and forgiving.

SCORE:

NJO - 8
OJO - 1

 

Well...as Jedi, I respect those in the old Order more. They are more disciplined, numerous, and much, much cooler. (Mace ) That doesn't mean that I don't admire certain new Jedi, and the work that Luke has done, but the new Jedi Order lacks something that the old one had.

 

Where does it say you "can't love but you can procreate"? The rule was there so family can't be used as pawns. The order is ascetic. I never got any sense that the Jedi were unhappy with their lives. Only Anakin was really unhappy, the rest were content. The whole government collapsed. You act like the Jedi Order were at fault. They weren't. They were caught off guard like everyone else.

Obi-wan too arrogant to ask for help? That's why he went to an ex-miner/fry cook for advice? He seems happy to see Dex, and grateful for his help. Warm and kind. Let's see Mara hug some alien, or Kyp, or ("if they aren't jedi, they're worthless") Jaina. Sure.

That Qui Gon was grateful a slave boy's help? Not much arrogance there. Again warm and affectionate. I don't think a single person in the NJO has yet to touch anyone in friendship. Luke comes across to me like he always has his arms folded with a "don't touch me" air.

Have you read Shatterpoint? Mace is as humble as they come. He treats everyone with respect. He not only takes people's viewpoints into consideration, he actualy ponders them, lets them be a part of him.

Yoda never seemed too arrogant to me. For some reason I don't see Teckli taking him out, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Vader let Luke win. He never had any real intention to kill Luke. Luke would be dead without his father's intervention. Anakin would never really kill a family member. He was loyal to family.

No matter what, NO other generation has faced the near godlike powers of a Sith Lord like Palpatine. His likes will probably never come again. The Vong are mindless drones, whereas Palpatine was the cohesive force behind the Empire.

The whole NJO is tinged with a bit of Darkness, IMO. Without Luke's strong guiding hand, who knows what will happen in the next few generations? With charmers like Mara, and her non-stop commentary on how stupid everyone is, they aren't going to have all that many friends, either. Kyp isn't exactly everyone's faovrite person. The are all drowning in arrogance. (People only tolerate the antics of the more volatile Jedi out of respect to Luke and more, Leia. She is more recognizable, and universally accepted. Luke wouldn't have an order without her.)

I get the feeling they are tolerated, but not well-liked. The old order were reviled for a much different reason: There was so much corruption and crime, that when a jedi showed up, it was going to be stopping. No one likes their profits being cut into. The OJO stopped slave rings, and blockades, and mediated quarrels, they culled revolutions, and wars, before they got out of hand.

The NJO don't have to do anything. The YV are wiping out everything and everyone, so all they need to do is fly around and fight to defend themselves, just like the many billions of others. It's easy to act to superior when you say mystical things that don't offer any solutions.

You forget that Luke spent the first three years of the Invasion glued to the wife's side, indecisively doing nothing, and holding everyone (governments, armies from counterattacks) else back. These people valued his opinion too much. What did they get out of it? Annihilation while he sat around saying sappy things with his spouse. I don't agree that having families is not a distraction.

If Centerpoint had been fired, maybe most of the YV invasion might have been stopped. The old jedi got down and dirty with their constituents, and all Luke and Mara and Jaina do is fly around and never really see anyone, having the best of everything. Obi-wan a bit more humble than that. They are too much like movie stars, and not even like mediators and defenders.

The old order were anonymous, and humble, and didn't have an army of press from the Enquirer following them around. I think they would have scoffed at such indulgences.

That doesn't mean that I don't admire certain new Jedi, and the work that Luke has done, but the new Jedi Order lacks something that the old one had.

It's called humility.

Like Jesus knew his vast power, but he

 

Far Side:
The New Jedi Order have faced more and greater threats than the OJO have at any point in their existance. Between total extinction at the hands of the Emperor and the Empire, and then with the Vong invasion, the Peace Brigade, and the fact that they were hunted by nearly everyone in the galaxy, it is a wonder that so few of their members have turned to the dark side, and that they could pull through everything that they have come up against. When the Old Jedi Order was faced with stormtroopers and a Sith Lord, they were virtually wiped out within a couple of years.

Well, said, Far Side! Your whole post was intelligent and well-thought out. I agree with all that you said. I would add that the New Jedi Order was founded and grew primarily during a time of war. The fact that 100 knights were trained within the span of such a short amount of time is truly amazing, especially considering the fact that the founder and primary teacher was often called away from the Academy, as he was needed in the war or in galactic hotspots. Although Luke had at most a month of training where Jedi of the Old Order received about 25 *years* of training, and he had no colleagues or mentors when he started the Academy, I think he has been extremely successful. Most of his students have been adults. Yet he and his Jedi Order have accomplished much in the galaxy, fighting all the evil that has threatened the citizens of the galaxy and serving as teachers, diplomats, members of the military, healers, scientists, historians, etc.

I think many of the knights of the Old Jedi Order were arrogant and elite and out of touch with the people of the galaxy because they spent so many of their early years away from the "normal" people of the galaxy. I feel they spent too much time in the Jedi Temple and not enough out in the galaxy with the people they were supposed to serve. I think they had become too complacent and too sure of themselves. When the knights of the Old Order were faced with a war for the first time in many, many years, many of them were easily defeated.

The Old Order didn't allow Jedi to marry. If Anakin and Padme hadn't married, there would have been no Luke and Leia. If Leia hadn't married, there would have been no Jacen and Jaina. All of those Jedi have been very heroic and influential in the galaxy, and have done many good deeds, but they wouldn't have existed if the Old Order's rules had been followed. The Old Order took children from their families as infants and they never saw their families again. I've always felt that parents should be an important part of their children's lives, and should provide a loving and necessary support system for their children. Were those infants that were taken to the Jedi Temple given a choice about whether they wanted to be Jedi or not? No, they weren't. I would think that could cause some resentment later among those who decided they didn't want to be Jedi and serve the galaxy all of their lives.

The Jedi of the Older Order didn't seem to have the compassion of most of the Jedi of the New Jedi Order either, nor did they believe redemption was possible.

The times and problems of the New Jedi Order are different from those of the Old Order, so the solutions, traditions, and rules need to be different as well. Despite some flaws and "growing pains" that are to be expected in a rather new organization, and despite all of the threats they have faced since and while Luke started his Academy on Yavin IV, I think the New Jedi Order is doing remarkably well. I doubt that the Old Order could have withstood all of the trials that the New Jedi Order has faced and survived with its basic integrity intact.

Lightsaber Wielder:
That doesn't mean that I don't admire certain new Jedi, and the work that Luke has done, but the new Jedi Order lacks something that the old one had.

The New Jedi Order lacks the peace that the Old Order had for so many generations. The New Order has been involved in war for most of the years of its existence, and it's ra

 

The old republic and the old order jedi would get beat pretty badly by the vong. Before AOTC the republic didn't even have an army. The clone wars destroyed the old order, but the NJO will survive the vong war. I do have to say that i think the NJO has lost a lot of the non combat oriented parts of being a jedi. Jedi like Mace, Yoda, Qui-gon, and Obi-wan don't exist any more. I think JAcen has a point when he says that luke's training was focused into turning him into a weapon. Luke has figured out most of the other stuff by himself, but there is still so much that was left out of his training.