Amph One Thread To Rule Them All: The Rings of Power, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings & Middle-earth films

Still in the 21st hall.

jk Gandalf died

 

One thing I love about Tolkien is how evocative he can be with just a few choice phrases. Whether it’s the Battle of Helm’s Deep or the backstory of Helm himself, he can get a movie playing in your head with just a few words. One line from the Silmarillion can send your imagination racing, conjuring tremendously cinematic sequences. I can’t think of anyone else who is quite that effective in stimulating the imagination.

 

Went for a country walk today and spotted this cool house name on my travels:

 

There are two Underhill Lanes on the Oregon coast! Documented them for my Instagram, MiddleearthPNW, if anyone is interested.

When you read The White Rider, did you suspect the three hunters were visited by Radagast, not Saruman?

 

Honestly might prefer to see Radagast leading the War of the Ring instead of Gandalf the White.

 

Book 3 Chapter 10, The Voice of Saruman. It's so great finally seeing Saruman after so long teasing the encounter through the whole book. The way Tolkien manages to make him both scary and manipulative, and feel like a spent force, is mightily impressive. The way his 'Voice' is described, subtly overtaking the minds of men, but in some cases easy to shrug off, is just fantastic. Lots of great moments, like Saruman silkily offering everyone a way out, like a 'ray of light' through an escape door, or when Gandalf and Saruman talk directly, and we get the perspective of everyone watching as if they're only important people in the room and everyone else are like children listening at the door.

Also, Gimli meeting Treebeard, attempting to bow, and his axe clattering the ground is a great continuation of his running gag. He'll never cut any wood in Fangorn as long he lives, that's for sure

Chapter 11, The Palantir.


Sorry, couldn't let that Shadow of War reference go Interesting that it's Merry in particular who Gandalf tells about Helm's Deep and Rohan's war plans at Dunharrow, since he's the one who ends up in that plot strand while Pippin goes to Gondor.

Also very intriguing, but is this the only chapter in the entire trilogy in which Sauron actually appears, in person, with dialogue? Despite being the titular character and main antagonist, he's usually not represented by any physical actions, besides from being described in events from long ago. There's not much there in his brief conversation with Pippin, but it does lend the moment some extra gravitas.

I really like the lore around the Palantir acts as a lead-in to finally visiting Gondor itself in Book 5. Plus I've always just loved the devices themselves, more than just simple crystal balls, dangerous to use and easily misinterpreted. It even sort feels like one interpretation is that Saruman got caught in a positive feedback loop, turning his eye to Barad-Dur so often that he ended up unable to anything but try to imitate Sauron. Almost like a dark mirror of his own powers of beguilement.

Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three,
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one White Tree

"What did the men of old use them for?" asked Pippin, delighted and astonished at getting answers to so many questions, and wondering how long it would last.

Kind of a shame that Book 4 is next, since it feels like I should just plough on with the current plot strand. I wonder, although I'm not doing it on this read-through, has anyone ever read the books in the order 3-5-4-6? (or 4-first three chaps of 6-3-5-rest of 6 I guess, for the opposite version). Does it make for a better read to cover Frodo and Sam as one big chunk, and the others together too? I can see why Tolkien doesn't do it that way, since you'd be away from certain characters for so long in-between, and a few characters and plots from the Frodo strand (such as Faramir, the Harard and Easterling build-up) do cross over back into the Aragorn strand, though it's not like Tolkien's played around with chronology before

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, white the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.

What another great end to the book. It somehow manages capture the intense speed and majesty of Shadowfax, the sense of Pippin's knowledge of the lore of the world expanding, as well as the meta feeling of this strand of the story literally falling away and being replaced for a time, all in one beautifully evocative sentence.

 

Managed to read through four chapters tonight, the first lot of Book 4. Right from the Taming of Smeagol, I find this section very easily readable. Each chapter moves the story forward in a distinct way, with unique sights and sounds. It's all in a nice, chronological order, and very focused on the journey of the two Hobbits on their way to Mordor. Quite nice after all the jumping about and complex new politics in Book 3.

Chapter 2, The Passage of the Marshes might feature the most eerie location in any of Tolkien's writings. The festering dread of the place oozes throughout, and the sight of half-glimpsed bodies illuminated through the pools, like unchanged remnants of the ancient dead, make for a fantastically unsettling image. I suspect this is where a lot of Tolkien's experiences of WWI bleed through into the descriptions, that sense of inescapable uneasiness and fear.

That carries on into Chapter 3, The Black Gate is Closed, which opens in a way Tolkien's done a few times, like when the characters arrive at Bree or Isengard, and we get a little bit of history and backstory to the new location. The ashy wastes before the Black Gate are another very evocative location. Book 4 really allowed Tolkien to flex his descriptions of natural locations, each very different, from the rocky cliffs of Emyn Muil, the reeking wastes of the marsh, and the desolation of Cirith Gorgor, are all sketched in remarkable detail.

Also interesting is that this chapter has one of the few direct mentions of events in the other strand of The Two Towers. As Frodo is pondering whether Aragorn or Gandalf ever planned for them to come via the Black Gate, we briefly cross back over to show that Gandalf was at that moment just finishing his conversation with Saruman. Always found it curious how that means that the Hobbit's journey towards Mordor has been a lot slower than it would seem. The same ground they covered in three chapters turns out to be equivalent to ten for the rest of the Fellowship. Plus it does reveal that Gandalf isn't dead, which I guess spoils my idea of reading Books 4 and the start of 6 before any of the rest. Ah well, I did recall something of the sort.

Chapter 4, Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, marks a turn into being slightly more laid-back, with less of a sense of dread. That does rather match the character's moods very well, all that pent-up tension of getting to the Black Gate gets to dissipate, in this case mostly by Tolkien going ham and listing off dozens of different types of flower and plants, as well as an extended cooking scene. And another great new landscape, the forests of Ithilien, which manages to feel much more full of life than previously in the book so far. Not much to say about Faramir yet, that'll probably come in the next two chapters.

 

Reposting my idea about Jackson's Saruman problem I can't let go of for the 3 people who will get through this and have thoughts on it

Spoiler

Let’s talk about Jackson’s choices when bringing Saruman to life. While in the book, Saruman doesn’t appear in the flesh until the destruction of Isengard, Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh’s screenplays go out of their way to not only transform him into the trilogy’s central villain, but also make him responsible for various ills the Fellowship faces, even giving him the will of mind to force the Fellowship through Moria in hopes that Gandalf might be faced with Durin’s Bane– and leave the company vulnerable the forces he's birthed in the caverns of Isengard throughout the film.

This was generally a wildly successful choice. Many reviews of the time go out of their way to praise Lee’s performance, and lament his lack of appearance in the trilogy’s final chapter. I know that for me, as a child, Lee’s Saruman grounded the film in a tangible way, giving me something more concrete to root against.

I know what you’re thinking. But let’s not turn this into a diagnosis of the movie’s ills as an adaptation of Tolkien. In this exercise, I want to take the films for what they are, at face value, and not mourn or grieve what they might be as a closer adaptation of the text. Peter Jackson is not Terrence Malick, who, had he directed an adaptation, might have produced something similar to the tones and themes of Tolkien's book. Peter Jackson made a Peter Jackson film (trilogy), and he always would have.

It was in watching the theatrical editions in theaters recently that I came to a realization. I don’t love these films because they are wonderful adaptations of Tolkien. I love them because they are beautiful films, but notably, they are beautiful action films. They thrive on set pieces. This movement, this pacing, is more evident in the theatrical editions than I ever realized. Above all else, Peter Jackson is admittingly drawing influence from Ray Harryhausen, another creator whose work thrives on spectacle, flow, and set piece.

This is why I can not only get behind Jackson’s transmutation of the text as an adult, I can indulge in a fantasy of what could have been here. The way Jackson transformed Saruman in Fellowship sets the stage for the entire trilogy. Though Saruman in the films is nothing but an agent of Mordor, he is the villain above all else who drives the action through to the Battle of the Hornburg and the ents’ assault on Isengard.

But as we know, in Film 3, he simply vanishes. Anyone who can remember these films coming out will recall how strange that was, to see Lee reduced to nothing but a rather unconvincing resolution by McKellen: “He has no power anymore.”

The scene was cut because Jackson couldn’t figure out to do. He was to end Towers with the death of Saruman, but upon shifting so many scenes to Film 3, he couldn’t make Saruman’s death work as a prologue either. The cutting of the scene caused a rift between him and Lee that lasted at least a few years, but more problematically, it undercuts the setup Fellowship clearly establishes, and without Saruman in Film 3, there is no payoff.

His dispatchemnet in the extended edition of the film is serviceable enough, but I have never really been satisfied with it. It is cobbled together from various iterations of what was filmed, fairly poorly edited, and lacks a cohesive sense of direction. It is not a real payoff for what Film 1 promises when it presents Saruman as the chief threat, nor is it clever enough act as a twist to subvert our expectations and call attention to Sauron as the "real" villain.

But with the benefit of over two decades of hindsight, I believe I have a solution, which is what I’ve really been rambling about. If we can agree that Jackson decided to bring in more of Saruman to present the Fellowship with a more tangible thread to face, and if we can agree that this was a solid creative investment, it only stands to reason that it should pay off.

And that is why I present an alternative solution.

Let me remind you that this is not an attempt to be true to the text, but to be true to Jackson’s transmutation and adaptation of the text. This is in keeping with the goal of Saruman as the central villain of the trilogy, the earthy threat the heroes will face. This is Tolkien as Jason and the Argonauts, as Jackson always envisioned. But it is also a fairly basic change that I believe is true to Saruman as a character and his general trajectory in Tolkien's book.

I like to imagine Film 3 in its current form, with very little changed. The heroes still arrive at Isengard, but in this ideation, Saruman has vanished. Treebeard let him go, in dialogue similar to the text. Gandalf concludes that Saruman has little real power anymore, as he does in the film.

The film is the same, but as Gollum and Frodo arrive at Minas Morgul, a rider on horseback enters the castle. Inside, Saruman begs for mercy from the Witch King. In the book, he likely would have assassinated Saruman himself when Mordor marched West. But this is not the text. Saruman is still of use to Sauron, especially when he brings evidence of the plans of the West. Remember, in the films, Saruman seems to have a better understanding of the company’s plans as they move south from Rivendell. It stands to reason that he would expect them to think that someone in the company has the Ring. More likely, he might think it is Aragorn or Gandalf, but the scene cuts away before that is ever revealed, because it's not really relevant to his place in the film.

Saruman appears only one more time. Remember, we’re trying to be as true to the theatrical cut of The Return of the King as possible, except giving a fitting end to the central villain of the Lord of the Rings film series. That is why, when the Black Gate opens, Saruman, not the Mouth, appears.


What follows is a scene I think you can imagine. It is the “rematch” between Gandalf and Saruman that viewers have expected since Gandalf jumped off the top of Orthanc in Fellowship, but like the book and like the scene that was filmed, it is a war of word. Here, the two negotiate terms. Here, Saruman, like in the EE scenes, mocks Gandalf for what he’s done with Frodo. Except, here, he also tosses the Mithril-coat.

Unlike the film, Gandalf and Aragorn here break, and ask for the terms, rather than rejecting them before the emissary can speak. Saruman will have himself reinstated at Orthanc, along with the rest of the demands the Mouth makes in the book. Gandalf of course rejects them, with a fierce rebuke to the jailor of Mordor.

Saruman, in his wrath, aims to flee, but Gandalf prevents him, calls him back, and breaks his staff.

Here, Grima appears, presumably with news from the Gates, and Aragorn appeals to him. In the film, these lines go to Theoden, but here Saruman rebukes Aragorn instead.

Of course, like in the film, Grima kills Saruman, and archers kill Grima. No version except the text really does justice to Grima’s 360 turn, but Douriff sells it well enough in the film. I think it could land well here.

As in the text, we would get Saruman’s body scattered by the winds of Valinor, as the Black Gate opens, and the forces of the West muster and ready for battle, futile as it is with Frodo dead and the Ring presumably in Sauron's clutches, even as we know that not to be the case.

I believe these two additional scenes could have solved the Saruman problem that has always hovered over the film trilogy, to varying degrees. Some are satiated by his demise in the Return of the King, but I find it very fitting to see Saruman given more of a role in the final film, reducing him in the end to the pathetic figure that he is by the end of the book. But what do you think? Would this be an improvement to the film? Or does Saruman’s death as prologue for the last stage of the War of the Ring work better for you?

tl;dr Jackson's action adaptations, which never could have encompassed the Scouring with the choices that Jackson made, rightfully beefed up Saruman's role as a concrete villain, but dropped the ball in his disappearance in Film 3 and the EE scene isn't enough for what Film 1 promises. What if the Mouth of Sauron was actually Saruman after he fled to Mordor for refuge, only to be met with torture and imprisonment by the Witch King? What if Saruman's death by Grima occurred before the Black Gate as he negotiates terms with the West?

 

Oh no, I feel that having Saruman at the Black Gate not only takes away from the Mouth's appearance, it also 'oversizes' the moment, taking the focus off of the Fellowship's grieving for Frodo, believed to be dead, and re-orienting on 'big bad' Saruman. That moment doesn't need overshadowing by also moving a massive villain and dialogue scene there (much as cutting Sauron's 'appearance' in the battle helped).

The way it works in the Extended Edition is not only closer to Tolkien (combining the Voice of Saruman scene with his eventual death in a way I find very efficient), but I've always felt it's a great way to open Return of the King. Two Towers ends in a way where a big long confrontation scene wouldn't really fit, but as an intro it works wonders at reminding the audience of the battle the heroes have just been through, the losses Rohan took, Aragorn's history, the looming threat of Sauron, as well as tying off the stray plot strands regarding Isengard for good. Never actually seen the Theatrical Editions myself, but I can't imagine losing this scene, to me it's integral to the way the pacing of the trilogy worked. Ignoring some minor weird editing (Treebeard being the obvious indicator, as he has no lines in the EE scene and just sort of vanishes if you pay attention), it's still a captivating scene.

Edit: Also remembered that Saruman scene acts much like Smaug's attack on Lake-Town in Battle of the Five Armies, kicking off the movie in a way that both works for simple pacing, as well as setting up the film's central conflicts perfectly, in a way that having it occur in the last film wouldn't quite achieve.

 

I'm fine with having the films standing on their own and making their own choices separate from the novels. But the Saruman issue was one of the biggest flaws, I think.
The other was the 'recreation of the Last Alliance' plot that Jackson added to The Two Towers. Don't get me wrong - I liked the idea, but they inexplicably left out the dwarves, a key member of the Last Alliance. When you factor in the original plot of Gimli becoming entranced with the caverns behind Helm's Deep and starting a new colony... it just didn't make sense. Gimli by himself wasn't enough, any more than Legolas by himself would've been enough for the elves.

 

I guess my only rebuttal is the note I don’t think the films work so well because they are so true to Tolkien, they stand on their own as modern spectacle movies. Viewing the TE for the first time in two decades really brought this home to me. They move, and that pacing i think is part of why they work so well. I’ve always had issues with editing and pacing in the EE, more notably in TTT and ROTK, and was struck by Jackson’s inspirations in the interview at the theater when he brought up Jason and the Argonauts. Jackson wants cave trolls, Watchers, Balrogs, wargs, orcs, and Mumaks, and that is what often shines onscreen. He brings in Phillipa and Fran to move us to tears.

In the end, I’m less concerned about Jackson being true to Tolkien and more inclined for him to be true to his own vision. That’s why Saruman’s filmed death scene has never done it for me. It doesn’t feel true to Tolkien (to me), nor does it feel like how Jackson actually wants to use the character, unlike in Films 1 and 2, where he gives him much more agency.

idk in my old age, I’m less sympathetic to the EEs, less sympathetic to these films as adaptations of Tolkien, and more interested in the basic concept of setup and payoff that the trilogy lacks with its central villain. who again, is not Sauron. Not really.

 

Meat's back on the menu!

 

The lighter side of Mordor. by TuomasMyllyla on DeviantArt

"As one can easily read between the lines, it's obvious that orc's understand what the word "menu" means, so they should also know what is a restaurant."

 

Book 4, Chapter 5, The Window on the West. This has always been a slightly unsatisfying chapter for me. Ever since I first read the book (during mornings before lessons started in Secondary School), I've felt that the film, different as it is, plays Faramir's turn more effectively. There's a much greater tension to the whole proceedings, where Faramir feels genuinely tested by the ring, and thus his eventual realisation of its true evil hits stronger. That arc is still present in the book, but told in a much more compressed manner. I suppose the chapter does work in a larger context, as part of the pacing of the book's structure. The movie has the advantage of being able to cut away from Sam and Frodo's struggles, so an extended mealtime rest in Henneth Annun isn't required to break up the journey as much. I dunno, it's probably because I came to the movie first, rather than the book, so my perspective is a little different.

That's not to say it's a bad chapter at all though. In a way, the laidback atmosphere gives it room to act as an intro primer for Gondor itself, building on the setup given by Gandalf at the end of The Palantir. In advance of Book 5 we get lots of backstory on the Stewards, the three main cities, how Boromir fitted into it all, its relationship with Rohan, all without it feeling like too much of a lecture dump. In a way it kind of feels partly like Tolkien finally reached the main meat of the story of the War of the Ring at last, given how large a role Gondor has, as if it was the 'main character' of all the realms in Middle-Earth in the book, so to speak.

Some other nice details abound, like the glittering waterfall at Henneth Annun, described as an elven tower beset with gemstones, or the moment of silence the Gondorians have as they look to the West, towards old Numenor, lovely little cultural tidbits like that are what makes the story so rich. Sam constantly standing up for Frodo in front of all the armed men is very endearing. And this touching line, that encapsulates one of Tolkien's core theses regarding warfare:

“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

Chapter 6, The Forbidden Pool. This chapter does bring back some of the edge after the relaxed tone of the previous one, though given how nice Faramir was previously makes it a bit sudden. It brings to mind this line from the movie, where it makes it seem like Faramir came up with the whole thing on the spot just to psych Frodo out


Gollum's arc here was preserved almost identically in the movie, and it does really work. The betrayal he feels when pinned by Faramir's men feels so genuine, like a lost child betrayed by a parent he'd only just come to begrudgingly accept. Next time I get back out onto the road towards Minas Morgul.

 

You've all inspired me to do a deep read of Tolkien, something I've been meaning to do for quite some time.

So... I started with The Hobbit, and began looking at the various food and drink that the hobbits use, and I noticed something of interest. There's a reference to 'silk' being used by hobbits, which some people noted was only found in the Far East, so it seemed an anachronism (considering that Middle-Earth is supposed to be loosely like the Real World). Really, though, we have other products - namely tobacco and potatoes - that were only found from the New World.
But, in the opening chapter of The Hobbit, I noticed something I had actually taken for granted as a staple of English culture - tea. Technically speaking, tea wasn't around in Europe until the 16th century at the earliest, as an import from the Far East.
There's another interesting passage later in the book, where Bilbo talks about the legends of the "Were-worms" and the "Last Desert" in the "East-of-East". In an earlier draft, the Last Desert was the Gobi Desert. So, we have an interesting look into the legendry of hobbits here, and one that might be unique in some ways. What can we draw from this? That the hobbits have dim legends of a remote time when they lived in the far east of Middle-Earth (after all, the birthplace of humanity was set in the east)... and that in their migrations west, they brought with them some of the discoveries from there, namely the production of silk and the brewing of tea leaves.

 

Not really, if we go with the thesis that the area where tha main story of LotR is Europe, silk have been imortat into Europe for a very, very long time.

And the hobbits are 18th/19th centery farmers and gentry, so that's no problem.

Or they hear those stories from the traders that they get their silk and tea from.

 

It is supposed to be Europe, in the literal sense - thousands of years in the past. Tolkien made a point, in one instance, to correct a reference in The Hobbit to tomatoes, changing it to 'pickles' in later editions because he didn't feel that it should be available in the Shire (considering it's native to the Americas). I mean, I know that's inconsistent with the appearance of potatoes and tobacco, but Tolkien made a point to only call the former 'pipeweed' in LOTR.
OOU, we know that the hobbits are supposed to be effectively representative of rural English life, but IU, we can make some assumptions I believe - for instance, we might be able to derive many details about the realm of Arnor, which we know so little about - as it is likely that the hobbits (which we know were very pastoral prior to settling Bree and the Shire) picked up many of their civilized aspects from Arthedain, such as a postal service, and may represent the only remaining traces of their civilization.
It's unlikely that they get tea - or coffee, for that matter - from traders, considering the distances involved and that Middle-Earth is at somewhat its lowest point during this time - trade is apparently almost nonexistent. That tea and coffee doesn't appear too rare makes it sound more like a staple than a luxury item. Most likely both are grown in the Southfarthing, along with the grape vinyards and pipeweed fields that we already know are there.
We'll see if these items show up elsewhere in the world.

I'm also wondering about who is using the coal that the dwarves are mining.

 

You make it sound like you cant be pastoral and have villages

 

Not so much pastoral as deserted for the regions that became the Shire - by the middle of the Third Age, Eriador only had a fraction of the population it had had in the late Second Age. It was, for the most part, an empty land reverting to wilderness, although the great forests that had been hewn during the Second Age never grew back to their old extent.

 

Pastoral in the sense that they lived a very simple life, as evinced by Smeagol's people.
While we never visit it, Michel Delving is said to be an actual town by size.

 

Book 4 Chapter 7, Journey to the Cross-roads. A pretty perfunctory chapter, mostly travelling from point A to B. It does start to slowly darken the tone once more, with the Hobbits heading back out into the wild. I particularly like the growing sound of thunder beginning to emanate throughout the land, signalling the build-up of Sauron's malevolence.

And of course, it ends with the iconic 'coronal of silver and gold' scene is great, giving both a glimpse of hope and then a crashing back to harsh reality. I think the movie captures the moment perfectly:


Chapter 8, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol. I adore the descriptions of the dead city of Minas Morgul, glowing with a faint aura that somehow conveys no light at all. The great army pouring out makes a great counterpoint to Pippin's vision of Minas Tirith in flame, great setup for Book 5.

Here we also have another scene that feels like Tolkien once again filling in more Silmarillion backstory at any chance he could get: "Beren now, he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodrim, and yet he did.", which of course must have meant absolutely nothing to anyone reading it when the book first came out, or most first time readers for that matter. Nice to finally grasp the true meaning of such lines since having read the Silm itself.

Rather than just being a non-sequitur, Tolkien even ties in the reference to the current plot. During the whole 'tales that really matter' scene (moved to the end of the second movie in the adaptation), Sam continues on with his Silm reference, and talks about the same Silmaril that went on to Earendil, whose light Frodo was holding in that very moment, thus making it all part of one long tale. Frodo having the first laughter in Mordor since Sauron came to Middle-Earth is also a lovely touch, a hopeful cry against the dying of the night.

Chapter 9, Shelob's Lair. I think Shelob herself might be one of Tolkien's greatest creations, especially in the realm of horror writing. Every description makes her seem both disgusting and terrifying, like an eldritch horror out of the distant past (weirdly, with how much the Hobbits invoke Galadriel in this chapter, Shelob feels like dark inverted version of the Elven queen, another matriarch past her time, lingering inn Middle-Earth).

Torech Ungol, Shelob's Lair. Out of it came a stench, not the sickly odour of decay in the meads of Morgul, but a foul reek, as if filth unnameable were piled and hoarded in the dark within. Amazing how Tolkien can create two locations of such dread side by side, while managing to make them feel so distinct thanks to passages like this.

As though Earendil had himself come down from the high sunset paths with the last Silmaril on his brow. - Another great link to the Silm that continues on that same idea that it's all one long story, still being carried on through the humble Hobbits. Actually there are loads of Silm references sprinkled throughout the last three chaps, Ungoliant, Turin, Luthien, they keep on coming.

Chapter 10, The Choices of Master Samwise. It's interesting to compare this chapter to the ending of Fellowship. There it was Frodo who debated with himself what the proper course of action was to take, whether to leave the Fellowship behind and strike out on his own, or try some other path. Here Sam has to take up his master's mantle. I like how reluctant he is to go on at first, blinded by hate for Gollum and love for Frodo, before he eventually has to accept the only possible way forward. The part where he puts on the Ring, and feels sensations from all the way down in the Morgul Vale, Shelob wounded in her lair, over to the voices in the dungeons of Cirith Ungol, brings to mind Frodo's vision on the seeing stone at Amon Hen too.

It could have ended on that bleak and ambiguous note, but the chapter does continue on a little longer. We get another deep delve into Orc culture, with the two factions from Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol, much like the division between Moria, Mordor, and Isengard, harkening back to the very early chapters of Two Towers. It feels like the book comes full circle. It's probably the biggest 'cliffhanger ending' of all six books, can't believe Tolkien makes the reader go through all of Book 5 before finding out Frodo's fate, and what Sam will do next

 

@darkspine10
While the movies are amazing I would have preferred they were paced more like the books. Second movie ends with Pippin and Gandalf speeding away, Frodo is captured, amd Sam's vision of using the Ring to conquer Middle-Earth and make it green and wonderful again. (Woe onto any who stands in his way).

TTT is my favorite of the trilogy.

 

Really enjoyed reading both of your posts about Saruman in the films.

Jason and the Argonauts is a great film and it’s inspiration for Jackson is clear in many ways. Jason and the Argonauts also has one of the most abrupt endings of any movie I’ve ever seen. When ‘The End’ appears on screen it feels more like ‘To Be Continued’. At the very least it feels like the last act is missing.

The film opens with Jason’s father Aristo the King of Thessaly being killed and usurped by Pelias. Pelias’ victory was part of a prophecy that also foretold after 20 years Aristo’s death would be avenged by one of his children. The motivation for the film’s story is Jason avenging his father and fulfilling the prophecy. When Jason completes his quest and can return home for a final reckoning the film just ends. It cuts to Zeus and the gods on Olympus taking about more adventures. The prophecy is left unfulfilled.

Saruman in the TE might be inspired by Jason and the Argonauts as well.