Amph One Thread To Rule Them All: The Rings of Power, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings & Middle-earth films

thorin did not have one of the dwarven rings, but his father thrain had the ring of thror, the first of the dwarven rings to be forged and the last to be recaptured by sauron when thrain was captured and tortured in the dungeons of dol guldor.

 

It says on the screen "dawn of the second age" - that's clearly saying it's a flashback.


As for Minas Ithil/Morgul... Isildur is the one who created the city (more like a military fort originall), after Numenor is destroyed. His brother created the city (also more originally like a military fort) that later is renamed and becomes Minas Tirith, with the city in ruins in-between them in LOTR (Osgiliath) being the first capital of Gondor. Elendil is swept off-course and founds Arnor, east of Lindor and including what will become the Shire, Barrow-downs, and Bree.

 

This black forest is on the edge of Mordor, so the spiders are likely Shelob-related.

 

LOTRO:



and

http://lotromap.net/terrainmap/google.html

Although they don't include Umbar, or the new parts of Gondor they added recently.

 

Yeah, it’s clear that a number of casual viewers missed what that opening text meant. But as long as they realize what’s happening by the end of the sequence, it doesn’t really matter.

 

Finally finished episode 3 last night. Really liking this season so far. While it’s an improvement over the first season, it also makes season 1 better in retrospect, IMO. That’s a sign of a series that’s strong overall.

 

I wasn't the biggest fan of Season 1, but I agree with those here who say this season has been better overall. The first two episodes were particularly strong. If I had heard they were going to make a series about Sauron years ago, I would have expected it to fail and ruin the character. But the Sauron/Halbrand plot has played a careful balancing act and... it actually works? He's a smart, crafty villain, and they haven't gone too far off the original story (despite Sauron not having much of a personallity in the books/appendices). And he makes good people do bad things when they think they're being noble, which is a recurring theme at the heart of Tolkien's stories.

The ongoing existential drama between the elves and the dwarves remains a highlight of these series. I agree with what @The2ndQuest said above, that it's strangely easier to empathize with the non-human characters.

The third episode suffered from some of the issues in the plot that had plagued Season 1. Not sure if we're doing spoilers tags still, but:

Spoiler

The chronology between events feels disjointed, and there are an awful lot of coincidences to move the plot along. The horse saving Isildur just in the nick of time, Arondir saving Isildur just in the nick of time, Isildor just happening to show up at Bronwyn's funeral (which was also a clunky but inescapable way to write off that character). For how long was Isildur unconscious? The show makes it out like more than a few days passed, since the Numenor gang already returned home, the Stranger/Nori have been walking a long time, the elves are going back and forth all over the place, etc. So is the Isildur plot just temporily behind the others?

The whole eagle and palantir business didn't make much sense either. The palantir plot with Regent Miriel was interesting, with Earien's betrayal proving unexpected but understandable given what she saw, but WTF were the eagles about? They didn't particularly look like they were in Ar-Pharazon's favor when they showed up. They showed up in the middle of the fighting. In-story, I guess Ar-Pharazon paid them off to show themselves at a specific time? If he didn't and the eagles were invited to support Miriel (suggested by his comment to her earlier when choosing the dress), why did Mr. Eagle not do something like fly off when people started chanting for Ar-Pharazon and not Miriel? If the eagles were not invited, why the hell were they even there?

Despite those critiques (which are probably unduly harsh), the show feels more like what would be expected of LOTR. People making rings, obsessing over rings, playing god so they can make more rings. Breaking out the First Age vintage so they can do all the above.

 

Spoiler

The eagle bit bothers me, because the Eagles specifically do the bidding of the chief of the Valar, Manwe. The Eagle's arrival should have signaled the Valar's approval of Miriel, not Pharazon who is destined to rebel against the Valar and bring the Fall of Numenor.

 

Could not agree more. Vickers is great. His scenes with Celebrimbor are pretty darn solid. Some dialogue choices I take issue with but it's what we got....nonetheless when Vickers is on screen I'm feeling engaged. When I'm in mystery box land with the Stranger and now Poppy (I like Nori but that's mostly because Markella Kavenagh is just a fantastic actor) or with Isildur and his girlfriend, or with Durin and Disa having their spats....I'm just completely checked out.

BOOK/LORE SPOILERS (not show spoilers) below WARNING































I don't believe the three elven rings were problematic for their purposes of preservation, and I've never seen Tolkien label the intentionality nor the purpose behind them as such in any of his letters or writings that I can find (so if you know of something I do not please share as I'm a nerd and I've been wrong many times before).

I know you know all of this but for the sake of anyone reading the discussion who doesn't:

Before the marring of Arda by Morgoth, elves would have faded still, or their "Hroar/Bodies" would have faded, but as originally intended by Illuvatar.......ridiculously slowly, and equal in pace to the fading of Arda itself. Morgoth ruined everything and thus, Aman out West becomes the only safe haven by which the elves can prevent this "speed-fading" and can exist as they originally were intended to: fading slowly (minus the original intent of them living in Middle Earth amongst men and tutoring them as they come of age, of course). The three rings simply allowed the elves to subdue the speed-fade that Morgoth ushered into existence and gave them the ability to preserve themselves and thus allow them to fade closer to the way Eru originally intended.

Tolkien openly labeled the Valar rushing off to Aman, making it a walled off safe haven after Morgoth destroys the Two Lamps and ruins the Valar's first home in Middle Earth, a huge mistake. And he labeled the call of the Eldar to Aman the very same.

So my long winded point is that the rings simply allowed the elves to essentially reinstitute the original state by which the elves were intended by Eru Illuvatar to exist. The 3 rings' preservation abilities aren't the reason their creation is problematic. The rings are problematic because they were ultimately, despite the intentions behind them, still products of Sauron's instruction, and ultimately under the control of his One Ring.

 

We discussed this back in early August, and frankly, the common fan interpretation of the three elven rings as fundamentally "good" is simply wrong. They are rings of POWER, and Tolkien does not look favorably on power. And their preservatives/ embalming power driven by elven will (as opposed to Sauron's) is not seen, by Tolkien, as a great thing. And yes, he makes this point very clearly:

In this context, we discussed how the TV show rightfully embraces this view of the three rings (see below). And now that the first three episodes are out, I would assert that they have interpreted Tolkien's words quite well. Simply put, they understand that Tolkien was primarily writing about death and the rejection of it.

 

Damn, that letter really is source material for these first three episodes. Crazy.

 

So, having watched the first three ep.

I did not hate the first season but it had problems, poor pacing was one of them.
Them having four storylines going at the same time was another.
Trying too hard with the mystery boxes, "Is the stranger Sauron?" also did not help.

Elrond and Durin were a highlight.

So these first three, a bit better but still problems. Pacing is better but still is not good.

About the Sauron/Halbrand bit.

Spoiler: Spoiler

I got that it was a flashback and it would seem that Sauron spent most of the second age as "Symbiote Sauron".
But what was his plan once he got a human form? Why go with these people? And where were they going? They were on a ship so to Numenor?
Would Sauron even know of Numenor when he has been "indisposed" for this long?
Did he intend for the random sea monster to attack? If so, why? Did he know that he would meet Galadriel?
Why grab that pouch? Again did he know he would meet Galadriel and planned to make her think he was the King of the Southlands?
Seems a bit random.

The dwarves.

Spoiler: Spoiler

I think that Annatar rolled a one on his diplomacy roll when talking with Durin, that was a bit clumsy.
Did like that Durin spotted it. So not everyone buys what Annatar is selling.

Southlands/Eregion.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Why would Sauron go to Adar and talk about a sorcerer, did he mean the stranger?
He could just go to Eregion right away. And did he know that Galadriel had not told the others who he was?
If she had, he would not get a warm welcome.

Numenor.

Spoiler: Spoiler

This remains a not so good thing. In season one we had "Elves will take our jobs!" bit that was cringe.
Now we have "Elvish sorcery". They make the people of Numenor look backwards and superstitious.
The downfall of Numenor was their fear of death and envy of the elves. Here they seem like rednecks.
And the nation does not seem very powerful. And the guy that overheard Pharazon and co talking, did he not tell anyone?
And lets just have a big brawl at the coronation and an Eagle randomly shows up and suddenly Pharazon is now king.

About the Rings, from what I have read, the Seven and the Nine were not made for Dwarves and Men as such. All the Rings were made for Elves.
They made a whole bunch with Sauron right there but the three were made by Celebrimbor alone, Sauron never touched them.
But when Sauron sacked Eregion, he took the Rings he could find, he gave them to Dwarves and Men, Durin might be the exception.
He got back three of the Rings the Dwarves got, the other four were consumed by Dragons.

So will keep watching but I am not really getting very excited about this.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

@Samuel Vimes

Spoiler

Spoiler

The sorcerer he was talking about was Sauron (himself). He turns himself over to Adar so he can tell him Sauron is in Eregion working with the elves, so that Adar will attack and destroy Eregion, thereby eliminating a center of elven power in Middle Earth without lifting a finger (and remember he has no army). I imagine he will arrange things so Adar will be eliminated in the battle too. In the meantime, he goes to Eregion to craft the rings, and prepare to dominate Middle Earth once Eregion and Adar are thrown down. Two birds, one Sauron.

He actually explicitly said Galadriel is working with the resurrected Sauron, too. How would he have been talking about the Stranger?

This show is pretty clear on most points, including this one. I get not being super excited about this series, but I wouldn’t hold it against the show if I missed information on a first watch.

Spoiler

Sounds exactly like Peter Jackson’s version of Middle Earth politics. A brawl in Edoras = Theoden is back as king. A boink on Denethor’s head in Minas Tirith, and Gandalf takes control.

 

dp

 

You're bang on correct here and Tolkien does allude to such in this letter specifically. The Elvish desire to preserve things, or embalm them, as they were was a failing on their part and ultimately a trap of their longevity. Not something that was "evil" or deliberately defying any explicit direction of Eru, but it was contrary to their nature and represented a failure of wisdom and faith/hope.

Regarding the elven rings-
“They were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.” — The Fellowship of the Ring

The temptation of the rings that the elves succumb to is the ability to hold dominion and control over parts of the earth, allowing them to remain in middle earth longer than would be naturally possible post the marring of Arda, and to prevent the world from changing away from their desired image of it.

But what you point out with Letter 131, the hubris involved in utilizing the power of preservation in part to maintain their lordship over men, dwarves, etc in Middle Earth cannot be overlooked. There was a serious pride element in the creation of the three elven rings. They certainly kept at bay the taint of Morgoth, but there were also other motivating factors.

I believe this is also from that same Letter, for further context:
"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."

BOOK Elrond would tell you the elven rings of power were made for healing and were necessary. Tolkien would probably tell you that they were a flawed and dangerous gambit driven by the elve’s hubris.

Thanks for sharing that letter. I concede to your ultimate point

 

Having now watched Season 2 of Rings of Power in multiple viewings, alone and with friends. I cant say enough, how mutch i love this Universe. Peter Jackson and this Version. Both little difference and tied together. I love this version of Sauron and Elrond.

 

I enjoy aspects of the series....the music is incredible, the cinematography is impeccable.... I take issue with some of the design choices but overall, its a gorgeous series. I think the biggest struggle for me is the characterization in the series thus far, mostly for our primary characters and the plotting, and how that impacts them on a micro and macro level in comparison to their literary counterparts. Thus, by extension I suppose I see the writing as the series' biggest weakness, personally speaking.

I mean in the very first episode this season we have Galadriel attempting to gaslight Elrond into believing that their plight/Sauron's deception is in any way his fault. They continue to characterize Galadriel in a way that doesn't align with her literary counterpart really in any way. Galadriel has no marvelous gift of insight into the minds of other in this series, clearly, and having her withhold Halbrand's identity from Celebrimbor so this season's plot can happen, based in her feeling shame or concern about her self image had she been truthful......it just doesn't do her any favors in terms of rectifying her season 1 shortcomings. And they establish Elrond as anti-rings as fast as they possibly can. Both Galadriel and Elrond's show characterization qualities in this second season, as well as the changes from their literary counterparts, seemingly stem in large part from the showrunners' decision to have the three elven rings made first rather than last. Having Sauron be handheld to Eregion by Galadriel essentially creates a domino effect for both their characters going forward. Sure, presumably they'll show us how Elrond ends up as the ring bearing ruler of Rivendell, but high treason is certainly not an aspect of Elrond's story that I saw coming. Had this been Rings of Power Galadriel, though, I wouldn't have batted an eye considering how they wrote her last season.

I think Vickers is great, but I also take issue with the prologue and its depiction of Sauron. Sauron was manhandled by orcs, completely blindsided. Sure, post War of Wrath he would be in a weakened state, but this is the same Sauron who defeated Finrod in one on one battle/song. Only demi-god Huan has bested him. To show him getting bested in THIS way is a complete disservice to the character, in my opinion.

And of course Sauron just waltzes back to Eregion on horseback, something that quite literally can only happen because Galadriel refused to tell Elrond and Celebrimbor the truth regarding Halbrand's identity, a seriously foolish and irresponsible decision on Galadriel's part (and a decision that ultimately leads to the death of lots of elves when war seemingly comes to Eregion's gates). And even worse is that Sauron doesn't consider it either! He just assumes that Galadriel is too worried about her own failure to warn Celebrimbor, and so he rides up to Celebrimbor's doors without any second thought.

Essentially, the continued craftsmanship between Sauron and Celebrimbor can only happen because Galadriel is dumb and Sauron expects her to be dumb. Without the whole unnecessary Halbrand storyline and the premature Sauron reveal, we could have avoided a lot of the characterization/story issues that I relay above.

But that's one individuals opinion as a huge fan of Tolkien. You have other huge fans of Tolkien's literature in this very forum whom feel the exact opposite of me and are really enjoying what this series is doing on the fronts I have listed above. Not here to say anyone is right or wrong one way or the other. As a Middle Earth addict, I genuinely want to adore all aspects of this series.

The Silmarillion goes public in 2044 or somewhere around there, and you bet your bottom dollar that the Tolkien Estate will want to cash in on that. I genuinely believe the chances are very high that they sell the rights to the Silmarillion within the next 10 years and then perhaps I will get an adaptation of some these events that are more to my liking (though what a feat it would be to adapt...perhaps Beren and Luthien?). I'm glad people who do like this show are getting 50 hours of it. More high budget fantasy is always a good thing.

 

I feel like Galadriel's failure to tell Elrond and Celebrimbor the truth about Halbrand might be chalked up to the fact that Sauron has a hidden influence on her still.

 

Here's another interesting aspect regarding the elven rings in the show.....when Cirdan is about to toss the three elven rings overboard into the sea, it's HEAVILY implied that either Ulmo or more likely Osse disturbs the water immediately and causes Cirdan to rethink his actions. This scene certainly implies, on behalf of the showrunners, that the Valar want these rings to be utilized by the elves.

 

It doesn’t certainly imply that the Valar, as a whole, want the rings to be used. It might imply that Osse wants that, and he is an unpredictable and chaotic fellow that doesn’t wait for the other Valar to take action. Ulmo sometimes acts independently as well, not least as he still travels the waters of Middle Earth, and would have an interest in preserving some of his waters via the rings. As would Osse. That I could see as the implication. But in any case, it’s only an implication, and there’s no certainty about it. And no doubt it wasn’t a decision of all the Valar.

 

I think that letter (which I believe is the prelude to the Silmarillion, that section is just a part) is a good summary of the themes of all of Tolkien’s works.


@Bor Mullet i think I agree more with @dick rodgers . (I don’t want to multi-quote that long exchange). I interpret the letter differently … the main error, trying to have it both ways, is trying to be LORDS of their own realms by using the Three mostly in that way. The original use/intention of the Three, which is remedied in the Third Age. The Elves are trying to have it both ways by trying to escape the shadow of the rule of the Valar while casting their own shadow of rule in Middle-earth. Tolkien does not condemn Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel in LOTR. Galadriel “passes the test” while still holding Nenya. The tale of the Three Rings in the Third Age is more Tolkien’s theme of fighting the long defeat… prominent in other writings and translations he did. It was a bittersweet story theme he really enjoyed… to keep fighting to the last, even when knowing defeat will come. Occasionally there will be the eucatastrophe, but even those are temporary, and along with his Christian belief (and the Dagor Dagoroth, and implied with Melkor’s corruption of Arda itself) there will only be victory in the hope of the intervention of the One to finally destroy and remake the heavens and earth.

“They wanted peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West’, and yet remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor”

They can and were still used as “art” and not “machinery/magic”

I think that is what it meant… but Pharazon and his supporters were ready to spin it. He is definitely implied to have worked with that other lord to stack the crowd in his favor.

We know in the books Miriel was supposed to become Queen and intended to follow her father, but that Pharazon did usurp her. But that he did also coerce her to fake-rule besides him. He’s not as good of a deceiver as Sauron, but he is showing his skills here. And how it happens is a neat way to show how that balance was struck when Pharazon usurped. I predict Miriel will be asked to be his co-ruler (but with him still in charge) for the sake of “unity” in the next episode, with her only agreeing because it’s better than to lose all influence. And Pharazon has not yet become the monster he will after he defeats Sauron but lets him become prisoner, and then advisor.


Can we get some appreciation for the actors for Miriel and Pharazon. Especially Miriel. I think Elendil and Isildur have also been very well-cast, but they haven’t been given too much to work with yet this season.

The actors for Elrond, Celebrimbor, Sauron, and the Durin royal family also continue to be great.

The new actor for Adar, who I was most worried about since he was a highlight of season 1, was also as best of a recast as you can get with acting ability (and also still feeling like the same character).

I’m still most unsure about Gil-galad, but that might partly be due to the writing so far. Still time for him to become the king of legend and song.