"Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."

Does this quote make sense? The Jedi deal in absolutes: good vs. evil, right and wrong, etc. Palpatine (and later, Anakin) talks about how it is all a matter of your point of view. There is no absolute evil or good, it all depends upon how you choose to view things. It seems like the Jedi see everything in black and white and the Sith see shades of grey, so shouldn't it be said that the Jedi are the ones who deal in absolutes, and not the Sith? Obi-Wan's quote doesn't make sense to me in view of the larger story.

 

It doesn't mean that the Jedi don't see things in absolutes. The Jedi don't DEAL in absolutes.

What Obi-Wan here is saying, basically, is that the Sith adopt a "My way or the highway attitude" whereas the Jedi always see another way.

Obviously, Obi-Wan is a Jedi. That's an absolute statement. Hell, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" is an absolute statement in and of itself.

It's the deal part that should be emphasized here.

 

Actually they both do. Sith often seem to think their enemies are "Finished!" when often things take a turn and it goes quite the opposite.

 

tomandshell, I totally agree with you. That's the ONLY part about ROTS that's truly bothering me. It's not really in character for any Jedi, let alone Kenobi.
Seems like the Jedi deal an awful lot in absolutes -- for example, when Mace and Palpatine are fighting in that window, Mace FORCES Anakin to choose between them... to choose light or dark. Also, after Anakin kills the younglings, Kenobi doesn't entertain the thought that "well, maybe it was *right for him* to kill the little children".
Star Wars is all about choices -- usually of the good vs. evil variety.
I just wish Lucas wasn't so intent on forcing postmodernism down our throats.

 

I totally agree. WHoleheartedly. The line bothers the hell out of me too.
If what obiwan said was true then it would be ok for a jedi to use a bit of the dark side every now and then etc.
What is fundementally right/wrong, good/evil was always portrayed a quite clear and uncompromising.
The line is a bit screwey.

 

On the contrary, this was one of my favorite lines. I felt that Obi-Wan meant that the Sith focus through only one point of view, whereas Jedi focus through things through certain points of view. This example has been shown plenty a time with Obi-Wan and the 'death' of Anakin Skywalker.

 

yes, that was quite odd... but if you think about it, the line he is replying to is...

"If you aren't for me, then your my enemy" (or something like that)

then he gives the line about only a sith deals in absolutes... I think he is regecting the fact that he (obiwan) is not for what Ani is doing, but he is not his enemy. I think the line should have gave more the effect of: Just because I don't support your new ideals, doesn't mean I'm your enemy.

Of course that line would sound ever so corny, but I think something more to that effect would have been better. Because I THINK what he is trying to say, is that it's not as black and white. Just because you don't agree with this person's ideals, doesn't make you their enemy. It's just kind of a hefty conclusion made by the falling Ani.

The reason I think this, is because in all 5 of the SW movies made before that. There are abosulte beliefs displayed by the Jedi. They do also realize that there are different ways to percieve like yoda's line to Mace in SWIII "maybe we misinterpreted the prophecy."

EDIT: Just as "YouMustConfrontVader" said, the viewpoints matter, that's what Im getting at here.

So... ya, it is awkward at first, but it doesn't ruin anything for me, I just give myself an interpretation, and go on with the movie ^_^

-MW

 

Obi Wan's line is itself the statement of an absolute.

Does that mean he's a Sith? jk

 

To me this line reeked of Liberal bias.

Its basically said to me....Conservatives think like this, therefore they are Sith.

Its too bad this line made it in. Both the Sith and Jedi are absolutes.

I understand that Obi-Wan probably meant that there are many grey areas but again, why can't you also explore those grey areas, and with experience and knowledge come to an absolute after figuring out something?

I also know he meant that the Sith deal with "rule by fear and die if you don't abide by our rules" from the movies but again this is a knock on the current USA attitude with the rest of the world.

 

Why is Liberal such an ephitat? All Liberal (especially with a capital 'L') really means is the belief in the defense of personal liberty and private property? Are you implying you don't believe in these things.
If you want to read politics into it you are welcome to, personally I'd rather talk Star Wars, but that term is consistently misused. It's thrown around aimlessly to the extent that it no longer holds any real meaning except it's supposed to denote something someone denigrating and effiminate.

 

When you take it in the context it was written, it makes much more sense: the context being that Lucas was too busy trying to take a shot at President Bush and look witty to his liberal Hollywood friends in doing so to concern himself with whether or not it made sense for a Jedi to say that.

Whatever your political flavor, it's pretty obvious that this is what Anakin's preceding line and Obi-Wan's response are all about.


DLKD-

 

Again define how you're using liberal, Californian? Democratic?

Edit: See my post above, that word has no definite meaning anymore. What are you trying to say about Hollywood?

 

Your definition of liberal above is the definition of liberal in the classic sense. The modern American political definition is quite different, and it's the definition to which I refer, as that definition of liberal applies to Lucas' political ideology.


DLKD-

 

I am glad some one brought this up or I would have. The problem here is trying to be logically consistent with statements like "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..." Obi-Wan refered to all sorts of absolutes in all six movies, but what I found interesting is within 10 minutes of dueling he contradicting himself in some of his final statements to Anakin.

Obi-Wan: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil."
Anakin: "From the Jedi point of view! From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."
Obi-Wan: "Well, Then you are lost!"

Obi-Wan is using an "absolute" way of thinking here. In fact, he completely judges Anakin here in an absolute way. The terms "evil" and "lost" are important here. There is no way to get around this when dealing with Good vs. Evil and just plain logical discourse. The funny thing is now Anakin seems to be taking a more relativistic point of view by referring to different perspectives...although we know that is not really true. Was George trying to show Obi-Wan being inconsistent on this point? Maybe, since we all know Anakin comes back to the good side later in the story, but when it comes down to it you really can not escape "absolutes".

 

A lot of things in the films don't make too much sense upon closer scrutiny which is why trying to analyze them too closely makes baby Ewoks cry.

 

To me this line reeked of Liberal bias.

Well, you know, filmmakers do have opinions and biases that they express through film. Weird, huh?
It's funny that so many republicans are freaking out that this film is anti-bush, etc...
It reminds me of the play scene in Hamlet...

 

You can read whatever politics you want, but the line is just a reflection of Obi-Wan's line "The truth depends greatly upon our own point of view." line in ROTJ.

Here, its just a bit more personal. Anakin believes the truth to be that Obi-Wan is now against him because he forced Padme to betry him. Obi-Wan is just trying to rebuke that statement, by saying this is not so black-and-white. Obi-Wan never really wanted to destroy Anakin and if he had a choice, he would not have. Unfortunately, Anakin refuses to see Obi-wan as a mentor and friend any longer and forces the situation.

 

^It's true that Kenobi is sort of inconsistent over the course of the saga.

Still, I think the line's remarkably bad.

 

I sense a Vodka tie-in here somewhere

"Absolut Sith"

ahhhh yes, there it is now.

 

Council just go home now, jk of course but really come on man

This really had nothing to do with american poltics, it's about good and evil, and has nothing to do with bush. Just about how people tend to loss power in there own country through war, somthing that seems to be happening in a america right now. Even though the prolouge for the the ANH book which came out before the movie, making it the first piece of true SW stuff, talks about how empires take over, 38 years ago, unless Lucas can read the future, then this talk of politics, is just nonsense.

 

Mos Eisley: lol

DarthMannis:
Good point. It is very inconsistant from a logic standpoint. But then again, like Mos Eisely is intimating, logic isn't as much fun. IMO Kant was right in his 'critique of pure reason,' you have to ground the philosophical discourse in something real or else something that is false can be proven through the use of a better rhetorical argument (to paraphrase quite badly.) Obi Wan does ultimately have the 'moral highground' IMO, even if what he says in the heat of (impending) battle is self-contradictory and illogical.

Dark Lord Karno Dal:
What exactly makes one liberal? What is the ideological meaning in the American sense besides Democrat, or as most people use it, wimp?

 

So umm... Jesus is a sith?

 

The line was very much a political comment, yes. But I think it was done really well. If it's anything that the new trilogy has succeded in it's putting Anakins story in a political context and how it's thematically coherent with the turning of Democracy to Totalitarianism. Of course you could say that the Jedi are all about good and evil - absolutes - , but just because you have a moral compass does not mean that you deal in absolutes. The Jedi are first and foremost protectors of the Republic and Democracy and would therefore never enforce their views on others even if they think those others are wrong in thinking this or that, as long as it's not aimed at toppling democracy everything goes - freedom of speech right? We all now there're a lot of nutshells out there who would argue that that's exactly what Mr Bush is doing with the Iraqi war and etc.(I think we can all agree that Anakins line was taken straight out of the mouth of G.W.Bush) so I hope those nutshells do feel bothered by the line. The line was very appropriate and it's certainly one of my favorites considering the otherwise somewhat wooden dialouge this movie suffered from.

 

You have to look at Obiwan's statement in the context of their arguement.

Obiwan: My allegiance is to the Republic...to democracy.

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.

Obiwan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes...


They are talking about DEMOCRACY. The Jedi way is to support and protect the decisions of the senate(the masses). The Jedi submit their wishes to the wishes of the republic. The Sith way is to force their will on everyone. That's what Obiwan is saying. He's saying that the Jedi way is democracy but the Sith way is tyranny. Obiwan could see that Anakin was turning into a dictator and he knew he had to be stopped.

 

This must mean I'm a Sith!