Only one has achieved immortality

Plagueis wasn't able to save himself because he didn't know he needed to -be- saved; he was killed, unaware, in his sleep.

 

Doesn't matter. Palpatine says that only one has ever cheated death. Clearly it wasn't Plagueis. As I said if Plagueis had cheated death, he wouldn't be dead. It's all very well to go around saying "Hey, I've cheated death!". But the minute you die, that claim goes down the toilet.

So if Palpatine WAS referring to Plagueis, then he was lying about cheating death. Because Plagueis never did cheat death. But QuiGon did. And AS FAR AS THE FILMS ARE CONCERNED he is the first.

 

That still leaves 1 question open...

How in the heck did Palps know about Qui Gon being a force Ghost???

 

I am believeing this more and more that it was Qui-Gon that was able to cheat death. Yoda says that Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld of the Force, and provides the knowledge to Yoda who passes it onto Obi-Wan as how to retain their identity after death.

Also, we hear earlier from Palpatine when Anakin asks if it is possible to learn this power, Palps says, "Not from a Jedi"!

But in the end, we find out that it is actually through a Jedi that one learns to retain their life after death. It is possible that a powerful Force user as Sidious could actually have seen through the Force and learned that someone, and that being Qui-Gon has learned how to retain life after death.

Remember that Yoda said in ESB to Luke, "Through the Force, many things you will see, the past, the future, old friends long gone" Yoda did not say that those who used the dark side could not see things from the past and the future, and obviously the present, which would include sensing one's thoughts and feelings, and circumstances that are occurring, as we saw Palpatine do with Anakin.

So I believe he could have detected through the Force the actions of Qui-Gon, and what he had accomplished, though he may not have known it was Qui-Gon.

Darth Sin!

 

To be more specific Qui-Gon never actually became a Force ghost. He could retain his spiritual identity and voice to speak to Yoda and Obi-Wan, but he was never able to retain his physical identity, ie. no one could see him.

 

That makes sense, and when Palpatine said "Not from a Jedi". He was clearly lying to get Anakin over to the dark side.

 

Here's how I see it...

Both Jedi and Sith ultimately seek immortality. However, each understands this concept differently. I believe this difference is related to the fundamental difference between good and evil in the GFFA.

I think Lucas' definition of 'good' in his saga is similar to spiritual notions of humility--that is, getting yourself and your will out of the way so that something larger than you can act through you. Thus the Jedi, who personify good, strive to live in harmony with natural processes, including death. Immortality, for a Jedi, is the ultimate surrender of self, yielding so completely to death that the Jedi merges with the Force and through it can influence the living.

Evil in the GFFA, on the other hand, seems to be related to the notion of hubris, the folly of thinking you can bend the world and everything in it to your own will. The Sith, who personify evil, seek to become immortal by using their own will/ingenuity to 'cheat' death. Far from yielding to death as a natural part of life, the Sith imagine an immortality that results from manipulating life and death to produce an unnatural outcome.

If I'm right, then Sidious could not have been referring to Qui-Gon as the one who cheated death. The immortality Qui-Gon achieved would not count as 'real' immortality for a Sith, because after all, Qui-Gon died. Sidious must have been talking about a way to unnaturally extend a person's physical existence.


It turns out that according to the GFFA rules, Jedi immortality is real and Sith immortality is not, although the Sith in their pride do not realize this. Plagueis may well have found a way to live much longer (say, well into the 100s) but not forever. The true path to immortality in the Force will forever elude the Sith becasue they cannot possibly comprehend or accept it.

 

Palpatine: "It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself."

So Plaugeis apparently saved his loved ones, but he couldn't save himself. Thus it has been achieved by another, Plaugeis.

 

That's what I was saying on page 1. Plagius could "keep the ones he cared about from dying." Plagius kept Sidious from dying. That fits with the speculation that Sidious is very old.

Keeping people from dying is not the same thing as keeping them from being killed. And it's definitely different from making oneself immortal.

 

It has to be a complete lie. i dont doubt that Palpatine wanted to achioeve immortality and that he believed Anakin could be the key to this. But the notion that Plagueis really did achieve this earlier to me doesnt add up.

I mean, how or why could he have learned to save others from death? He would have had to have made a conscious decision to do this. But he is a Sith Lord. They dont think or care about others.

For me its a complete fabrication by Sidious. Far too convenient. All a ruse to turn Anakin to the dark side.

 

" For me its a complete fabrication by Sidious. Far too convenient. All a ruse to turn Anakin to the dark side."

I feel the same way. Personally, I always thought that Sidious was actually talking about Qui-Gon. Yes, I've heard the agruments against that idea but it would be an interesting spin on the story of immortality in Episode III plus it helps one to understand Yoda's words at the end of the film with Obi-Wan.

Again, just my personal opinion.

 

The idea that he is talking about Qui Gon is very confusing IMO.

How would he know about Qui Gon?

Also, he's in the process of turning Anakin so he is trying to repeat the idea that the Sith can find a way to save people as Plagueis once did - he's reminding Anakin. Why would he mean Qui Gon?

I honestly dont think that he means Qui Gon. He is talking about Plagueis but the whole thing is a lie.

 

Shaitan, if anyone ever refers to me being "a sock of yours" again, you can use this topic as contra-evidence. I think this is one of the things on which we'll always disagree

 

Plaugeis could've been a good person who turned evil. And in his quest to discover a means to cheat death, he did so, but the price was that he turned to the Dark Side. Sidious himself, if you buy into the novelization, wills Vader to live. And if you pay attention to that scene when Vader finds him, there is some genuine concern and affection, however brief it is. Plaugeis might've cared enough to want to keep someone alive and succeeded in doing so. It could've been Palpatine himself or someone else before Palpatine. Say it's Palpatine himself. This would explain why he knew of it and when he discovered that it can be done, he killed Plaugeis. Or it could've been the woman that gave birth to Palpatine.

Anakin wanted to keep Padme from dying, even after he became a Sith. He was being selfish and greedy. Who says that Plagueis wasn't in the exact same boat? He could not accept death and did whatever he could to stop his loved one from dying, so that he could continue to obsess and possess them. Dooku still cared about Qui-gon Jinn, even after turning to the Dark Side.

You can care if you are a Sith, but it's your mindset that matters. The Sith are greedy and selfish. The Jedi are selfless and compassionate.

 

Well, for me, it comes to this. This is Darth Sidious we're talking about. Just because he resides on the Dark Side of the Force doesn't mean he isn't tapped into all aspects of the Force. I've always felt he was just as powerful or moreso than Yoda when it comes to his total mastery of the Force. Hence, the reason why I think he can see on the Light Side of the Force.

Sidious tale to Anakin is too convienent for it to be truth. But, when he knights Anakin as Darth Vader, you can tell that he doesn't know the secret. He promises him the power but then in that scene tells Anakin that if they work together, they can discover the secret. To me, that signals, he never had the power to begin with. It's all seduction things, as Lucas states.

On top of all that, it makes Yoda's final words all the more interesting to Anakin's story. Here, the whole film, he searches for the power to save his love...bascially to cheat death if he considers his dreams literally. Yet, at the end, we find out that Yoda can commune with Qui-Gon and well teach Obi-Wan. In a round about way, that's cheating death. And it can be said to be immortality in a round about way. Later on in Episode V, we get to actually see Obi-Wan again, literally communicating with Luke as if he's there in front of him.

I ain't saying I'm correct but it would be interesting if it was Qui-Gon that Sidious was talking about.

 

Plaugeis could've been a good person who turned evil. And in his quest to discover a means to cheat death, he did so, but the price was that he turned to the Dark Side. Sidious himself, if you buy into the novelization, wills Vader to live. And if you pay attention to that scene when Vader finds him, there is some genuine concern and affection, however brief it is. Plaugeis might've cared enough to want to keep someone alive and succeeded in doing so. It could've been Palpatine himself or someone else before Palpatine. Say it's Palpatine himself. This would explain why he knew of it and when he discovered that it can be done, he killed Plaugeis. Or it could've been the woman that gave birth to Palpatine.

Anakin wanted to keep Padme from dying, even after he became a Sith. He was being selfish and greedy. Who says that Plagueis wasn't in the exact same boat? He could not accept death and did whatever he could to stop his loved one from dying, so that he could continue to obsess and possess them. Dooku still cared about Qui-gon Jinn, even after turning to the Dark Side.

You can care if you are a Sith, but it's your mindset that matters. The Sith are greedy and selfish. The Jedi are selfless and compassionate.

Good points Sinister. Didnt ever think of it like that. I guess Plagueis could have learned it in the process of turning. And yes, the Sith can care, but choose not to. Good points.

I may have to change my own mind set here. Perhaps Plagueis did learn how to save others from death?

Georgie boy?!

 

Differences here that some should be aware of.

Cheating death and immortality in this context are two DIFFERENT things.

Darth Plagueis achieved cheating death. And that goes in line with the Sith's belief that living in the material world is the ultimate power.

Qui-Gon achieved immortality. Living beyond death, which goes in line with the Jedi's spirituality.

 

Where's the proof that Plagieus cheated death? Palpatine's words?!?!

 

Exactly. There is no 100% proof that it happened, but then again, there's nothing to say that it didn't happen. And yes, immortality is different from cheating death. Qui-gon found the secret from a Shaman of the Whills on how to obtain immortality, by retaining your identity upon death. But for the Sith, this cannot be done. Excluding what was done in the eu. That's a whole different story there. What Sidious tells Anakin of Plaugeis is vastly different.

 

Oh?? Perhaps we won't always disagree??

 

There are two seperate issues here.

1. Being able to cheat death. This is what Palpatine's talk's about, and whether or not it's a true Sith Power, it's surely something from the Dark Side, because it's esentially unatural and is about prolonging someone's life on the mortal coil, when they should by rights die. Death is a natural part of life and such an ability would go against everything that the "living" is about. I personally think Palpatine doesn't know how to pull this ability off, but it's quite possible The Sith (as in Plaugeis) did know how to do it.

2. The ability to retain your identity in the spiritual plane. This is what Qui-Gon learn's to do and teach's Yoda and Obi-Wan. This is a natural part of the force and it's about allowing yourself to become completely at one with the living force - An ability that by its very nature will be out of reach of the Sith.

 

Rest assured Mandy, i still dont believe what Palpatine said. I dont think Plageuis learned the technique. But I am open to the possibility now, rather than flat out saying it couldnt be true.



Blame darth sinsiter!

 

I pledge myself to darth_sinister's teachings. By abilities I consider to be unnatural he's turned Shaitan and made him open to the possibility!

 

It's easy to forget that the Sith can care about others. Palpatine is so evil that it's almost impossible for him to care like Vader and Tyranus do, as well as Plagueis alegedly did.

 

I think it's possible, my master , that keeping others from dying was just the first step in his quest for his own immortality. After all, if one is to develop a new technique, wouldn't it be rational from a Sith POV to use others as an object for experimentation until one is sure it works, instead of oneself?