PT Order 66 was just mind control?

But according to Darth Plagueis, it was still originally the Sith that convinced Sifo-Dyas to do it in the first place.

 

True - still - he's a Jedi - it's not like Plagueis was controlling him - only manipulating him.

A case could be made that Yoda and Mace took their first big misstep when they told the Senate that the clones existed in the first place - and that it was possible for the Senate to take custody of them (if they gave Palpatine emergency powers).

 

yes you are right

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i was thinking about the same thing

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The Senate may have taken the action "make use of the clone army" - but the Jedi were the ones who agreed to lead the clones into battle.

By "the heroes of the original trilogy" do you mean Ben and Yoda? The Rebellion may have a better claim to that title.

"Deserve to die" is a huge overstatement, I would agree. But the Jedi aren't exactly "squeaky clean" either. More culpable than the average Republic Citizen (because of their much greater power) even if not as culpable as the average Republic Senator.

It would be a dull world if everybody saw Star Wars exactly the same way.

 

There was a bit of discussion on this here.

 

Why not?

While the perspective of Yoda and Ben as secondary villains of the OT, whose teachings (at least some of them) Luke has to learn to ignore if the galaxy is to be saved, is an unusual one, I thought it's been fairly well argued in the past.

 

That's interesting hypothetically, but I'm afraid will never, ever buy into the idea of Obi-Wan and Yoda as villains. What teachings was Luke supposed to be ignoring?

 

The one about non-attachment - that he should leave Han and Leia in Vader's hands, that he should focus on killing Vader rather than trying to redeem him, and so forth.

The essay was in Star Wars on Trial - and was the defence - arguing that Star Wars does have admirable ethics.

The main part of the essay:

Spoiler

 

It's an interesting argument though I can't say I support the interpretations. I'll respond more fully later on.

 

It should be noted that Lucas once said that Ben and Yoda's whole plan was for Luke to redeem Vader rather than kill him:

Annotated Screenplays:

"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."
--George Lucas

so it does seem a bit doubtful that Lucas intended us to be as disapproving of Yoda and Ben as that guy is.

 

I know Lucas stated there that Obi-Wan and Yoda want Vader redeemed, but I just can't see that going by what we are given in the movies. At first in ROTS Obi-Wan remarks that he can't kill his brother, but appears to have come to terms with that later; when Padme asks if he is going to kill Anakin he doesn't say no. I get the feeling that his comment that Luke must kill Vader in ROTJ is to be taken at face value, Obi-Wan experienced losing Anakin first hand, and in my mind he seems to be on board with Yoda ("Forever will it dominate your destiny").
I don't see the OT Jedi as villains of course, but Luke definitely surpasses his mentors and the old Order at the end of ROTJ.

On the thread topic, I may be biased because I don't like TCW (I haven't seen the arc),but I think I agree with Anakinfan that the original context of Order66 was better. Both explanations make sense (with the emotionless speed of their betrayal), and Iron_Lord made some convincing arguments in favour of the change, but it seems silly to retcon something like this when we have been used to the original explanation for almost a decade. It just seems out of place.
On top of that, I liked the fact that Anakin's turn kind of mirrored the clones turning, Sidious' mind power over the Clones and Vader where it isn't neccessarilly automatic seems cooler. I suppose it doesn't make that much difference if they can't refuse the Order in both scenarios.

 

Fair enough. The RoTS novel's version of the Order 66 scene, for Cody:

Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche-school. "It will be done, my lord."

Followed by:

Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber?"

Also:

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi starfighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
All across the galaxy. All at once.
Jedi die.

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but It's just the word 'villain' that's causing such a negative response from you. I think it's fairly intentional that both Obi-Wan and Yoda are wrong about some things in the OT. They think Vader has to be killed. They think it shows weakness for Luke to go after his friends. In reality, Luke's compassion is what makes him such a great Jedi, and it was rejecting the concept that the only solution to Vader was violence that led Luke to victory against him and the Emperor.
So not villains, but misguided. As were the Jedi in the prequels, i think intentionally.

 

He very nearly did - but Vader blocked his saber.

As to the trigger for Vader's return to "being Anakin" - in the junior novelization of RoTJ, his love of Padme seems to play a part, rather than Luke's throwing down his saber inspiring Vader to be selfless:

"Now, young Skywalker..." the Emperor snarled, "you will die."
Luke had not imagined pain beyond what he had already suffered, but then he was hit by a wave of power that was even more staggering. His harsh screams echoed across the throne room.
Beside the Emperor, Darth Vader continued to stand and watch. He looked to the Emperor again, then back to Luke.
And then, in a moment, something changed. Perhaps he remembered something heard in his youth a long time ago: an ancient prophesy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. Perhaps the vague outlines of someone named Shmi and a Jedi named Qui-Gon struggled to the surface of his consciousness. The most powerful, the most repressed thought of all could have emerged from the darkness: Padmé … and her undying love for someone he once knew well. And despite all the terrible, unspeakable things he'd done in his life, he suddenly realized he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill their son. And in that moment, he was no longer Darth Vader.
He was Anakin Skywalker.
He grabbed the Emperor from behind. The impossibly wretched Sith Lord gaped and squirmed in his embrace, continuing to release blue lightning, but the bolts veered away from Luke and arced back to strike the Sith Lords.

 

"I don't want to become a Darksider" can be a selfish decision as easily as a selfless one. A refusal to submit to what's seen as "a fate worse than death" maybe.

The non-junior novelization doesn't show us what's in Vader's mind - but it does show us what's in Luke's:

Luke stared at his father's twitching, severed mechanical hand - and then at his own black-gloved artificial part - and realized suddenly how much he'd become like his father. Like the man he hated.
Trembling, he stood above Vader, the point of his glowing blade at the Dark Lord's throat. He wanted to destroy this thing of Darkness, the thing that was his father, the thing that was ... him.
Suddenly the Emperor was there, looking on, chuckling with uncontrollable, pleased agitation. "Good! Kill him! Your hate has made you powerful! Now, fulfil your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"
Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness - and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself.
And the only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it. For good and all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life in preparation.
He hurled his lightsaber away. "Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me."
The Emperor's glee turned to a sullen rage. "So be it, Jedi. If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed."

 

Probably.

So - given the new info about Order 66 (as Lucas & Filoni see it) from TCW - when you watch ROTS with that info in mind, does it, for you, spoil the Order 66 scene?

And do you have to "headcanon" that info out of existence to get whatever emotional reaction you want to get, out of it?

 

It basically turns the clones into biological droids which takes away that powerful element of betrayal that's present in the Order 66 montage (because you can't really be betrayed by a droid - a machine - can you).