PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Those episodes were the setup to the biochip. I don't know how early on in the production the biochip was created, but it definitely explained those moments in the show.

Right, but the whole premise of obeying orders is subjective. We don't know if it was ever an issue in the past. Meaning it was ever an important selling point or not. Or a special request. It is only an issue for Palpatine in order for Order 66 to be carried out as it was.

Again, the Kaminoans were told by Dooku that Protocol 66 was only to be implemented if any Jedi went rogue, as a fail safe against something like the Jedi Posse attempting to assassinate Chancellor Palpatine and take over the Republic. It was meant to be a secret that the Jedi Order as a whole would have no clue about. Hence the Jedi don't know about it and the biochip in Tup was removed, when Shaak Ti was distracted and thus no one knew of it.

Let me put it to you this way, Batman created a series of protocols to use against the JLA, if they ever went rogue. While Superman was aware that Batman had the Kryptonite ring to use against him, he was unaware that there were other methods created to deal with their teammates. Bruce's justification was that not only was it meant to neutralize the team, but it wouldn't be very effective if they knew about it before hand. See also the Xavier Protocols that Charles Xavier made for the X-Men which was shown in Excalibur #100.

 

I know one thing for certain:

If a Jedi General ordered one of his troopers to shoot themselves in the foot, 99 out of 100 would not do it. That one who would was left in his growth chamber too long.

 

Purely going by the films like I said. It is defined very clearly in AOTC. The concept that clones can be created to be genetically modified from the host - as the bulk of the army is. Boba, the "one thing," that Jango demanded as well as his fee, which was "considerable" was an unaltered clone. So it is perfectly explained and defined in the films. There aren't chips etc. It's the fact that the films state "clones can think creatively, you will find them immensely superior to droids" and "they are totally obedient and will obey any order without question." There is some mention of modifying the genetic structure. That is akin to genetically modified crops to give a very crude analogy. You aren't inserting chips into those crop seedlings. You modified their very DNA. The clones are not humans with free will. That the Republic sanctioned this army brings into question the ethics of the Republic in a way. To each their own, but the films explain everything perfectly with no additional information required, which to a lot of us here and many fans, is contradictory information from TCW (primarily a TV show for the young, though it no doubt has very good episodes). People can simply enjoy both and choose their own. If you watch the films though, they explain themselves just fine. The idea in ROTS is that it is an executive order. I go by film canon. Although interestingly as someone above pointed out, in several books written about the time period they stick to the film canon too. May the Force be with you.

Indeed.

 

Oh, that's basically how TCW puts it, as well.

 

I wonder what the aotc clone droid supporters think of the Clone Cadets episode of the clone wars

 

A lot of people who watched Revenge of the Sith back in the day came away believing that there was some Manchurian Candidate-type stuff going on. I remember the debates. The way the whole thing is portrayed, with Sidious telling the commanders "The time has come" and the commanders reflexively addressing him as "My Lord" gave a very strong impression that some latent programming was being activated. These were strange anomalies that were only really resolved when the TCW arc came out and confirmed many people's suspicions.

The idea that you can genetically modify a human being to follow literally any order without question (but only within the boundaries of proper chain-of-command, mind you) without compromising any of the other freethinking qualities which make them "immensely superior" to droids strikes me as extremely implausible, even for a series like Star Wars. The alternative presented by TCW, in which the clones are essentially less rebellious versions of Jango Fett, but with a built-in cognitive mechanism which can temporarily override their free will, makes a lot more sense, fits with what the Kaminoans tell Obi-Wan, and on a thematic level makes a trivial difference from your preferred interpretation.

By the way, Star Wars is primarily a film series for the young.

 

I don't find it implausible at all. We all have things we love doing and things we hate doing. We love things because they make us feel good. We hate things because they make us feel bad. The kaminoans could have the ability to make all clones love following the chain of command, and hate being disobedient. Imagine that a clone would get a massive feel good buzz when doing the right thing and following an order correctly, and imagine that they would feel absolutely terrible if they did the wrong thing and did not follow that order, worse than a loss of a jedi friend or fellow clone. The clone would avoid disobedience at all costs. After following order 66, maybe if a clone were really close to a Jedi they would have slight regret that their Jedi friend was no longer around to give them orders. But their feelings would tell them that they did the right thing. They are still intelligent humans that make their own decisions on what to do, but they are designed so that they will almost always intelligently chose to follow orders.

So in the shooting own foot example, a basic clone troopers thoughts would be: "ok I've been ordered to shoot myself in the foot. That's going to be painful and getting to my mission destination will be more difficult, but I will be following an order and that will feel great, and I can't even bear the thought of saying no". Trooper chooses to shoot himself in foot and feels great about it despite the pain.

 

No clone worth his price tag is going to obey an orded to shoot himself in the foot, unless it benefits some crazy unorthodox mission in some way.

 

I explained why a basic clone trooper could even follow a nonsensical order (that no Jedi would ever give). Can you do the same and explain why that wouldn't be possible in your opinion?

 

1. An order from a Jedi would filter down through the chain of command, from regiment/batallion, to company, to platoon, to squad.

2. a "basic clonetrooper" is a clone trooper who hasn't been promoted yet. They don't "grow" clone captains differently than clone sergeants, or clone privates(or whatever the equivalent is).

3. It's an unlawful order

 

You are using TCW again to get that info, not the PT.
The EU canon of the time that the PT was new had exactly that. Soldiers designed for specific roles and rank. These soldiers were programmed, not promoted through battle experience. They had regular troopers that could be produced as quickly as possible.

 

Nothing in the PT itself confirms or denies the 'specific roles only' growth of clones. The only Clones we really get to see are Cody, a commander, and Oddball, a pilot. There's also a bunch of other clone commanders with individualised armour designs that were named in the EU. There's also a variety of hairstyles seen. This to me suggests that clones do have a level of independence enough to decide on having names and identifying marks.

Only this info is what the films themselves tell us.

 

Exactly. As I said before going just by the PT movies, you can argue either way, neither is wrong. I just prefer the original EU way the clones were portrayed. It makes much more sense to me. If you could grow and flash train an army ,and you expected that army to suffer tremendous losses, you would want to replace losses like for like. Lose 1000 troopers, quickly replace them with 1000 troopers. Lose 5 commanders? Crack open 5 new commanders. That's much quicker than choosing a surviving clone trooper to receive extra training and attempt to make him into a good commander.
Its also far more cold and unethical that way, which was part of what made the clone army feel like such a thing created by evil.

 

Except that the films state that it takes time to grow more clones. So it wasn't a simple case of cracking open a new clone to replace the old one. That meant promoting those who had survived into new roles when necessary, which TCW did. Kamino was the only planet working on the clones for the Republic.

 

I don't recall the clones in the movies having different hair styles? just cody not maintaining his hair in combat.

 

Hmmm that is true. But then I would see the battle promoted clone like an emergency spare wheel. Get him replaced with a proper commander asap. Also it would make sense to produce a lot of more advanced intelligence/skilled clones first and always have plenty of these in reserve. These were the clones that had less genetic changes from Jango.

 

We see a bunch of helmetless clones in the hangar of the Venator before Obi-Wan departs for Utapau.

 

That's because you have to look a bit harder.

I think the implication was that the clones all had the same basic skills for combat training. Just that certain ones were assigned based on bulk, not so much specialty.

 

oh god the cgi for the clones faces besides codies, and the easter egg cameo of the younger clone actor from AoTC did not age well.
I wouldn't really call that different hair styles, just what real life soldiers do. But, I guess it counts.

We can all admit right the clones in TCW are much more different of characters than the movie and EU clones?

 

I feel that the TCW clones are simply an extrapolation based on Cody or Oddball from ROTS, whilst the previous EU largely based themselves off the scant portrayal we get in AOTC, which is at the start of the war before any individualising could have taken place. I think it's as simple as that.

 

Not really. They're more fleshed out since they had more screen time to showcase the individualism that they had. The EU clones aren't much different except for different terminology. You take the clones from the "Republic Commando" books and they're not much different from Rex, Wolffe, Gregor, Tup, Fives and the rest.

That too. The books were largely finished by 2005 and the Dark Horse series only had so much time to spare.

 

The EU didn't make basic clone troopers into individual characters though. Dark Horse wanted to have a clone character with attitude. So they invented the ARC trooper going by what AOTC said about unmodified clone Boba. Why not have an only age modified clone? This gave us the most badass clone ever.


The Republic Commando video game developer wanted a group of clones that would need to make their own orders and work as a team with each clone having a different skill set. So they created the clone commando, more individual with different voices so you could tell the difference between each clone as you played through the game. And that game even started the customised armour painting.

 

Nah, it's much different than that. Back when I was a kid I read many EU books while watching the clone wars. EU books based their clones off the movies and quite literally took away individualism and personality from them. They had none! They were literally human droids as I've said so many times in this thread.
The clones literally never talked to eachother outside of commands and kept to themselves. Also, they were good at not showing any individualism on their gunships. We even see this in AoTC when they're all eating none of them are talking and just look like they're suspicious of each other.

While TCW gave most clones a distinct personality. While I'd argue the "haircuts" in RoTS aren't really haircuts or give them much personality. Hell, even the shots from the very first Clone Wars movie gave the clones more personality than all of RoTS. When we see Ahsoka making fun of Anakin in front of all the clones and the 501st members having a great time of it, on the Clone Transport. Many are sporting different haircuts, facial hair, and haircolors. And we could see in the background drawn on art like real soldiers do on the gunship.






"Is that true sir?"

 

TCW's clone troopers are all like previous EU's clone commandos. In EU it was the commandos that disobeyed order 66. This left TCW having to come up with a reason to why every clone didn't disobey order 66.

 

orded 66 isn't portrayed in tcw.