PT Order 66 was just mind control?

Hmmm, I had a bit of Deja vu there.

Why is the fact that order 66 isn't portrayed in TCW relevant? It is what TCW is creating in canon that is important, as it is then carried on into RotS.

 

I have redundancy issues, and the memory of a hummingbird.

Anyways, TCW doesn't depict clones not following order 66. If we go by Rebels, then at least 3 didn't (one of which was a commando, the other 2 trained by the original arc troopers(or so I've heard), but also every clone that went awol or for whatever other reason didn't get the order. As for the eu, the only story I've personally read is RoDV, and yes, they were commandos, but is it really the case that no other troopers refused? I know there's a ton of Clone Wars comics out there.

 

Those were the only ones depicted as disobeying Order 66 when it came down. The final issues of the "Republic" monthly series only displayed all the Clonetroopers on Kashyyyk attacking Yoda, Vos and Luminara. The clones seen in "Purge" were also depicted as obeying orders without question. What had happened in the Vader novel was a fluke. What happened in TCW and "Rebels" was less a fluke and more of a deliberate intent on the part of Filoni.

 

What RotS showed was that the clones seemed to have expected this. The order is given to one commander and he needs only nod to his fellow soldiers and they know what to do.
So that this was something they knew about all along seems plausible.
We know that the clones get extensive training, AotC shows that.
So that this was part of their training is also plausible.
This would make the Kamino pretty much totally in on the whole thing, that the clone army would eventually betray and kill the Jedi.

And that the clones use Sidious Sith title also indicates this.

If you have a chip that does this, why the need to give a verbal order?
Sidious simply presses a button, the clones freeze for a second and then turn their guns on the Jedi.

[/QUOTE]

Why is this more implausible than the Force, sound in space, light sabers, giant creatures that live in the vacuum of space, robots that are programmed to feel fear and so on?

The need to obey orders can be made quite separate from being creative in HOW the order is carried out.

Take the first Terminator, he has a strict order, kill Sarah Connor. Could or would he refuse that order?
From the film, no.
Can he think creatively?
Yes.
We see him choosing dialogue, when Sarah is at the police station, he first tries to talk his way inside and then when that does not work, he does a quick scan of defenses and then attacks.
Later he goes after Sarah's mother takes her place in the eventuality that she would contact her.

Or take R2, in ANH he has an order to find Obi-Wan. Does he disobey that order? No.
And he is also quite creative, he needs to get rid of the restraining bolt and thus shows Luke part of the message and says that if the bolt is removed, he can show more.
So he tricks Luke to remove the bolt and then runs away.
That is pretty creative.

And there are other examples in SF where you have obedient soldiers but that can still be creative.

As for droids, we saw in TPM that it was not all that hard to confuse battle droids and get them to pause over strange orders before reacting.
And they were quite centralized and needed orders from above.
Clones that are given an order, "capture this base" can think and decide how best to accomplish this but also never once considering the idea to disobey said order.

What is said in AotC is enough to establish that the clones are totally obedient.
It is likely that some part of their training was about who they should obey, face and name of active jedi and so on. Otherwise, how would they know who to take orders from?
Anyone with a a cloak and lightsaber?

And they would also know the chain of command, who has the highest rank, what to do in the case of conflicting orders.
I have no problem here.

What would cause a problem is if we are shown clones refusing orders but no one comments on it and no explanation is given as to why.
In other words, you can establish almost anything but once you have established it, you then need to be consistent.
Internal logic essentially.

Star Trek is bad at this at times, ex it is said quite often that you can't beam through the shields.
But from time to time, they do exactly that in order to resolve a problem but no one explains how they could do something that they say is impossible the rest of the time.
It happens in the hope that the audience won't notice or be bothered by it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

A great quote from the Umbara arc of the Clone Wars, The episode being The Carnage of Krell.
By Captain Rex to Dogma:
"I used to believe that being a good soldier meant doing everything they told you. That's how they engineered us. But we're not droids. We're not programmed. You have to learn to make your own decisions."

This is the quote that separates the Clone Wars Clones from the old canon and movie clones. They had individuality, enough to make their own decisions, and that's what made them different from droids unlike their movie and legends counterparts.

 

In AotC Lama Su tells Obi Wan that it is that clones ability to think creatively that makes them far superior to droids.

I think its quite difficult for us to separate creativity and individuality. I'm thinking of it like this..... You ask three new clones, each in a different room with no ability to communicate with each other, to paint a picture of anything they wanted. Each clone then decides to paint a blue rancor. Each clone has made a creative decision as an individual, but the result is identical.

 

Exactly! It is all explained in the films. To quote Obi Wan Kenobi, "No no. No need for anything fancy!"

The film explains it perfectly in AOTC and ROTS. In AOTC, by virtue of describing what the Clone Army is. And in ROTS, with the command chain, the executive order, and so called "Jedi Rebellion."

 

Wow I hadn't realised how long ago this thread was started. The same things have been said over and over again

 

When an unstoppable force (The Truth from just the films) meets an immovable object (the unnecessary, but it's fine if you want to believe it in your head canon, TCW additional material to justify individuality in a cartoon). Order 66 can be whatever you the viewer want it to be. And for film viewers, it makes sense. For cartoon viewers, that's what their story is.

The honourable delegation from Malastare concurs with the OP. A commission must be appointed!

I enjoyed Star Wars. I think the most important thing is that Order 66 is a fascinating event. Terrible, but brilliantly planned. An executive order. And the music of that scene is truly emotional. That one scene holds so much power to it.

 

Wait, what? Are you saying that Lucasfilm went five straight years making clone wars stories, then one day thought:

"Oh! Gee Wiz! We need to do something ASAP to retroactively justify our clones having personalities"

"But Dave, how we gonna do that?"

"I'VE GOT IT! We'll do an arc about what makes all the clones comply with order 66!"

"But Dave, what does that have to do with clones having personalities?"

 

This isn't invalidated.

DOOKU: "My Lord, I have received a report that leads me to conclude we may have encountered a grave complication with one of our assets."

SIDIOUS: "Assets?"

DOOKU: "Yes, sir. A Clonetrooper has executed one of the Jedi generals."

SIDIOUS: "And you believe this is indicative of our programming?"

DOOKU: "I do, my Lord. But I cannot be certain."

SIDIOUS: "It is pertinent we ascertain if this is an isolated event, a failure in this particular clone's programming. Otherwise, my plans may be ruined. Seize the clone immediately."

DOOKU: "Yes, my master."

This means that it was a form of programming, but only becoming an active execution as soon as the order is given. That when the order is given, the chip activates and they are aware of what it means and why it is to be executed and who is issuing it.

Because it was designed to be voice activated.

[/QUOTE]

Why is this more implausible than the Force, sound in space, light sabers, giant creatures that live in the vacuum of space, robots that are programmed to feel fear and so on?

The need to obey orders can be made quite separate from being creative in HOW the order is carried out.

Take the first Terminator, he has a strict order, kill Sarah Connor. Could or would he refuse that order?
From the film, no.
Can he think creatively?
Yes.
We see him choosing dialogue, when Sarah is at the police station, he first tries to talk his way inside and then when that does not work, he does a quick scan of defenses and then attacks.
Later he goes after Sarah's mother takes her place in the eventuality that she would contact her.[/quote]

Right, but their CPU is also preset to "read only" in order to prevent the T-800's from thinking for themselves.

TERMINATOR: "My CPU is a neural-net processor... a learning computer. But Skynet presets the switch to "read-only" when we are sent out alone."

SARAH: "Doesn't want you thinking too much?"

TERMINATOR: "No."

True, but Artoo also disobeys orders quite frequently. Such as not playing back the message when both Luke and Threepio order him to do so. And EV-9D9 points out that Artoo is quite independent and defiant.

Probably the latter, which is why Palpatine can get away with having his Sith robes on and his face covered.

None of the Jedi questioned it because they saw the clones as people and not product. The Kaminoans had saw them as product weren't bothered by the clones having names. They probably weren't aware of what happened on Umbara.

No, it had to do with A) wanting to show that Palpatine's plan almost fell apart before he could initiate it and B) it was used to explain why the clones could disobey Pong Krell and why Slick aided Nute Gunray's escape. Lucas himself agreed with the idea of a biochip being used to explain what the genetic modification meant and had confirmed that Order 66 was akin to brainwashing.

 

I suppose the beauty of this fan-based trial of Chip vs. No Chip is that it seems to more or less works either way, depending on which the viewer finds more fitting.

While both sides acknowledge that Lucas himself had envisioned Order 66 as a "Manchurian Candidate concept", backed up by both Filoni and Hidalgo, the prosecution wants the chip stricken from canon; claiming the Clones were genetically engineered and trained to obey any order and Order 66 came from the Supreme Chancellor himself. While the defense claims the chip is part of that engineering and also acts as a programming & a failsafe to ensure 100% compliance & success for Order 66 specifically - nullifying any conscious intent with the order which the Jedi would sense and eliminating the possibility for any dilemma of conscience a Clone may experience when the order came down. And I propose that it may also settle any issues of questions of authority as well as any possible political climate.

Now, in RotS we all see Kenobi & Commander Cody twice exchange friendly banter, only for Cody to later receive a transmission from a noticeably changed Palpatine - suddenly in a dark, hooded robe with a disfigured face and ominous tone - commanding him to execute Order 66, to which he and the other Clones respond to with "Yes, my lord" and "It will be done, my Lord", just as General Grievous had done earlier in the film.


I ask; how did they not only know for sure it was the Chancellor, why are they now calling him Lord? A title the Sith or an Emperor, not a Chancellor, require their subjects to address them as. Cody then, without hesitation or mercy signals to his men to fire upon Kenobi. This then happens to every Jedi across the galaxy.
I agree the chip goes a long way in reconciling this, in that it may be activated by Palpatine's voice speaking those words.

And though mentioned a few times before, I'd like to bring up something else from, what happens to be my favorite SW book by my favorite SW author; The Rise of Darth Vader.

Interestingly, while the RoDV novel masterfully depicts what would happen in a no-chip scenario, I think it simultaneously highlights what I'd consider an uncharacteristic flaw in Palpatine's plan, as well as beg the question; if that happened to one platoon, why wouldn't it happen to more? It makes Palpatine look lucky that it only occurred once. And he wouldn't play with luck or chance when it came to this.

When reading this passage, I can't help but ask; why wouldn't Sidious have set up some sort of failsafe to prevent this? Have it hardwired into the Clones?

His statement about contagion brings up another pertinent topic to explore; that of Nature and Nurture. Yes, the Clones were engineered to have an obedient nature, but as psychologists and biologists have learned, environment can have as much impact on an organism as genetics. As mentioned previously; even 1% survival of Order 66, out of thousands, would be too much. Would genetic engineering be enough to ensure 100% compliance and success? What about their capacity to form bonds?

Fellow soldiers and their commanding officers are bound to form bonds. It helps build trust which leads to tighter teamwork and fosters morale. I can't imagine the Jedi and their Clones not developing rapport and bonding. Though eschewing attachments, the Jedi would still no doubt encourage this. They would want to fight alongside soldiers they trust and vice versa.

Now the question is; Would the range of emotional stirrings Order 66 would elicit in the Clones alert the Jedi? Would these bonds go so far as to prevent any of the Clones from obeying the Chancellor of the Republic?
Maybe, maybe not. But again, what we have here is a shadowy figure, not the usual Palpatine everyone knows. Would questionable authority still override everything else?


And what of his statement that "the time has come"? What is the context?
That the unfortunate contingency plan put in place for a Jedi rebellion is needed? Or something else?

Now, it's also established that the Clones experience nightmares about "the mission". I think this helps it all come together nicely.

Back to the 1962 film The Manchurian Candidate, the mind control victims have puzzling nightmares, which turn out to be about the events of the brainwashing experience. The Clones are also having nightmares which are implied to be related to Order 66, however the difference is that the content of these dreams never seems to seep up into their conscious waking lives.
I believe their "mission" to assassinate the Jedi for their Lord was programmed into the chip and this somehow, purposely or not, embedded itself deep into their subconscious. And from there it controls their actions much like hypnosis, when activated. If they knew about it consciously, the Jedi would've sensed it. It had to buried so deep, even they themselves wouldn't be able to know about, but still be impelled to follow through with it when it arose.
As pointed out, even in the RotS novel, Stover seems to feel the need to make some sort of similar implication in his own way. "Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche-school. "It will be done, my Lord."

There's nothing to sense because the Clones are just following orders? Fair enough. But as depicted in the series, Master Tiplar watched Tup directly approach her with his gun raised yet she never sensed nor suspected that he would pull the trigger. Tup was following his programming, not an order per se. Seems if there was any conscious, willful intent, she would've sensed it. Ki-Adi-Mundi seems to have a similar experience in the film. One difference being he wasn't at point blank range.

Furthermore, the Kaminoans stated the chip is responsible for inhibiting the aggression innate in the Jango Fett genotype. As pointed out, Fives became noticeably more aggressive after he removed his. It seems to me, when the chip is activated, it not only ensures emotionless compliance for Order 66, but removes these inhibitions. Was it the chip that was just overriding their aggressive tendencies? As we see even in RotS, the Clones seem more aggressive after Order 66, you can hear it in their voice as well. They now sound like stormtrooper thugs.
Like Anakin after indulging in the dark side, the clones changed after Order 66.

And the and parallels & reverse-mirrorings don't stop there.

Anakin was compelled by his devotion to his attachments, they were his ultimate loyalty. the Clones were compelled by their ultimate loyalty to the Chancellor.
Anakin killed the Tuskens because they killed his mother. The Clones were made to see the Jedi as betrayers of their "father" the Chancellor.
Anakin was once a slave, the Clones are essentially Palpatine's slaves.
All of the Jedi, like the Clones, are indoctrinated at a very young age to follow the imperatives of their particular organization.
Sidious instructed Vader to kill the Jedi in the temple without mercy or hesitation. Yoda instructed Obi-Wan to kill Vader, yet he was hesitant and showed some mercy. The Clones were instructed to kill their Jedi generals and did so without mercy or hesitation.
And that's just without the cartoon.

Anakin has nightmares which compel him to save his loved ones. The Clones have nightmares about killing the Jedi they serve under.
Anakin's capacity for choice was hijacked by his emotional attachments.

It was in his nature and in his nurture.
The Clones' capacity for choice was hijacked by the chip.
The genetic engineering was for their nature, the chip was for their nurture.

Anakin disobeyed orders because his attachment to his mother overrode everything else. The Clones had their potential to disobey this order robbed from them. Their capacity for conscience, reason, emotion, hesitation and mercy was stolen from them in a single moment and that's the tragedy, their tragedy.

Unlike Obi-Wan with Anakin, Jango killed his friend Zam with no mercy or hesitation. The Clones were rendered unable to consider the interpersonal implications involved in Order 66. The activation of the chip released the suppression of their more Jango-like tendencies, and they had no choice in any of it.

The fate of the balance of the Force depended on Anakin's choice and he forfeited his soul to save his wife, it turns out the Clones had their souls taken from them.

The bonds formed between the Clones and the Jedi could have saved some of the Jedi's lives, even if only by emitting a sense of remorse within the Clones when the order came down, but the bio-chip prevented that.
Except for Captain Rex, who did use his individual capacity for choice to have his chip removed despite the risks, because he trusted his friend Fives, thus sparing Ahsoka's life - both of whom went on to be a major key to the success of the early rebellion.

When trying to decide between the chip or not, I think one should apply Palpatine's Razor: whichever is the most evil, inhumane explanation is the most likely.
The bio-chip also compliments the already deep, dark, conspiratorial nature of the PT as well as the statements on modern times, human nature and technology Lucas tends to make.

Put yourself in Sidious' shoes. He needs as close to 100% success and compliance as he can get.
Even with genetic modification, these are humans and there's going to be a spectrum of independence.
The chip ensures that the percentage, however small it may be, of Clones that may hesitate or question the command, would immediately comply. I don't see him leaving any aspect of the Sith's 1000 year quest for ultimate revenge up to chance. I feel a Manchurian Candidate scenario resolves this and the bio-chip is an apt means for it.

 

Do the chips make the clones like human. They are compelled to follow specific orders. It's like programming. They are 100% loyal to the Empire not because of their loyalty but because they have no free will. Is this correct?

 

They have a lot of free will (clone deserters, anyone?) but the chip, when activated, overrides that free will, replacing it with Palpatine's instructions.

 

The chip only exists as a means to allow, in TCW story, the easy removal of order 66 from popular clone characters that have been written as good men. Realistically it makes no sense. Why design and program an addon Manchurian candidate biochip when you are designing and programming a whole being? The biochip would be superfluous to the clone's own brain. Program order 66 into the brain not the biochip. Same result and it cannot be removed without making the clone incapable of functioning and cannot malfunction.

Still I think the non Manchurian candidate, clones wilfully following an order from the top of the command chain is what is shown in EpII and III. Clones were not meant to be good guys.

 

Yeah that was my impression from the movies too. They aren't forced to do anything against their will; they don't have a will to begin with. Their "will" is to obey orders, whatever those orders may be.

 

So far we've gotten a grand total of 3 clones who removed their chips to stay good men. Seems biochips were added for the opposite reason - it allows clones written as good men on TCW an easy reason to instantly switch into unquestioning Jedi killer.

The Jedi I guess. Order 66 is the linchpin for Palaptine's plans to rule the galaxy. Keeping Order 66 a secret from even the clones helps it stay a secret from the Jedi. At the very least the Jedi not knowing about Order 66 makes them more likely to trust the Clones. Most importantly it means Order 66 is a surprise attack to catch the Jedi off guard.

For Palpatine the clone's own brain is superfluous to the biochip. The biochip removes freewill making the clones function as organic droids. Unquestioning loyalty to the Emperor.

If the orders are in the Clone's brain the Jedi could find out. A biochip keeps it's secrets from Jedi mind tricks.

TCW shows clones can disobey orders and disregard training and protocol. The chip overrides freewill compelling the Clones to follow orders. So far we've met three clones that removed their chips to escape carrying out Order 66. We saw one clone have their biochip malfunction. That's 4 clones out of the entire army. The chips are very reliable.

Agreed. Other than Commander Cody, we don't see any camaraderie between the Jedi and Clones in the films. It's all by the books chain of command orders. The clones as depicted in AotC and RotS would have no problems following orders to turn on their generals.

The Clone Wars series is what causes the trouble. On the Clone Wars the relationship quickly changes when the Jedi treat the clones as individuals. A friendship and respect quickly grows between these comrades in arms. From this the clones develop unique personalities and think even more creatively.

Instead of this being a problem for Order 66, it works into Palpatine's plans. The Jedi become attached to the Clones. It makes fighting the war more personal for the Jedi. It helps blur the line between the proper duties of the Jedi. And destroying countless droids to save organic allies makes destruction with a lightsaber more and more a reflex action. Basically letting the clones have unique personalities draws the Jedi further into the fog of war and loose perspective on the bigger issues of the conflict.

We also see on TCW how different the clones working directly with Jedi are from those who aren't. When the series switches to Phase II helmets we meet some clone units that are leaning towards being jerks or bullies with civilians. The units that work with Jedi have more compassion. In later episodes we see clones who are lethally scary as they hunt down Ahsoka in one story line and then the Clone Trooper Fives. The menace of Order 66 is still in the clones regular training.

Watching TCW and getting to know Commander Cody and seeing his adventures with Obi-Wan and Anakin, a biochip makes sense. Probably necessary to explain his unquestioning and instantaneous change in loyalty.

The good news is, if someone hasn't watched TCW then just watching the movies the biochips aren't even a thing. And if a fan of the movies doesn't like TCW so far they can ignore the biochips for what's in the movies.

Bottom line: The clones in the movies don't need biochips to convincingly turn on the Jedi. The clones on TCW do .

There is an episode of TCW where the Kaminoans mention how peculiar the Jedi are allowing the clones to have names and treating them like people. They consider the Jedi to be an odd cult and strangely sentimental. But since they are the client the Kaminoans go along with. In the faulty biochip arc is a debate where the Kaminoans say Clone Troopers Tup and Fives are their property. If there is a defect it's with in their right as teh manufacture of the clones to dissect them etc for quality control.

I think they mention Umbara also.... Basically the Jedi are enabling the clones to do things the Kamionans consider outside intended use.

Close. Nute Gunray was helped by a defecting Senate Guard named Captain Argyus. Nute promised him a fortune if he facilitated the Viceroy's escape from the Republic Star Cruiser after being captured on Rodia by Padme, Jar Jar Binks, and C-3PO. The Clones including Gree (who Yoda beheads in RotS) were horrified a Senate Guard would defect.

When it was Argyus not Ventress (she was busy in a duel) who rescued the Viceroy, Ventress killed Argyus for thinking he showed her up. In universe this betrayal by a Senate Guard allowed Palptine to more directly control his Red Guard and have his own red Stormtroopers. It also meant Jedi assumed more of a direct protection role on some high profile prisoners and important Republic officials.

Slick is a Clone trooper whose inhibitor chip (that's what the Jedi think the biochips are) wasn't inhibiting enough. Dave Filioni said he had a bit too much Jango. Slick thought he Jedi were using the clones as slaves. So he decided to break free of the life he was born into. He began passing info to Ventress. While Obi-Wan and Anakin were dealing with Ventress, Command Cody and Captain Rex tricked slick into revealing himself.

Slick was taken into custody and what he did was kept very hush hush. (Sort of like Finn in the ST) There was also a Clone in that episode named Chopper. He was scarred by droids in the Battle of Geonosis. He went a little Jango too and began keep droids parts as war trophies.

 

Because if a clone's entire brain was programmed, they'd just be droids. But the Kaminoans are very clear that the clones are not droids. That's why they can think creatively.

The goal with the clones is to combine the freethinking abilities of human beings with the total obedience of droids. The clones are weird human/droid hybrids. They're Frankenstein's monsters. Unnatural fusions of life and unlife (much like General Grievous and Darth Vader). The biochip concept is perfectly in keeping with that. What it means is that there's a part of the clone that's human-like, but there's also a part that's droid-like, and these parts are in tension with each other. This tension is evident, even if only in small part, in Episode III. Look at the way Cody interacts with Obi-Wan right before and right after Order 66 is given. One moment he's warmly bantering with Obi-Wan like an old friend, the next moment he's giving the order to gun him down without even a hint of hesitation. It's like a switch is flipped. It's very clear to me from this scene that Cody--and by extension any clone--does not possess a unified nature. He's split down the middle.

 

Except a chip isn't necessary.
The clones are said to be totally obedient, obeying any orders without question or hesitation.
But they can still be friendly, chatting with someone but as soon as they get an order to kill that someone, they obey instantly.

They can still act like "good men" but as soon as they get the order to kill Jedi, they follow it.

Except the Jedi already know that the clones obey any orders without question so they are fully aware that if the clones get an order to kill them from someone with a higher rank than them. The clones will obey.
So the Jedi do not need to know about any order 66 to be very distrustful of the clones.
Plus the large number of question marks about who actually ordered them, Jango working for Dooku etc.
All that paint the Jedi as quite clueless.

Also, how is a chip less likely to alert the Jedi?
An order that is in the clones brain but they will never talk about unless it has been issued.
How could the Jedi find out about it?

A physical chip, that might be detected, say a clone has been injured in the head and a Jedi takes them to a doctor, who scans the brain and they see a chip there.
If the Jedi have not been told about any chip, that could lead to questions.
"What is this chip?", What does it do?"

And if the Jedi find out about said chip and manage to remove it from most clones, Palpatine's plan is ruined.
The genetic alteration, that is not something that can be removed.

Also, if the Kamino people were involved with putting the chip there but have also been told to keep that info from the Jedi. If the Jedi questions the Kamino and the Jedi pick up that they are lying about something.
That could make the Jedi smell a rat.
well, they should be smelling a horde of rats already so what is one more?

But the genetic tampering has already done that. The clones are totally obedient, we are told this in AotC.
So a chip is redundant.

They only function I can see is that since the clones are made to serve the republic and Palpatine has the highest rank there by being chancellor. But if Palpatine would ever be voted out of office, he would loose that power to command the clones.
So the chip is a fail-safe that would allow Palpatine to command the clones even if he looses the position as chancellor.

But not from a medical scan.
And how could a Jedi use the mind trick on a clone to find out about order 66?
Just ask "Tell me about your orders?"

And as I said at the start, even if there was no order 66, the Jedi know enough to be aware that the clones could be used against them. The clones can not choose to be loyal, they can only obey orders.
So no matter how well the Jedi treated them or how friendly they seemed, the clones could not disobey an order to wipe out all Jedi.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

(1). It isn't that way around because the clones were written to have executed order 66 before TCW was written. So the chip is only a thing to explain how and why clone characters can continue to be used as good guys after order 66. The old EU (pre TCW legends) used ARC troopers and Commandos that had less moddified genetics and thus were more like Jango and more likely to disobey an order if it didn't make sense to them or would effect themselves badly. But because TCW did away with that and made a clone trooper genetically the same as an ARC, they had to come up with this biochip and call that "genetic engineering" to fit with AotC.

2. Manchurian sleeper agents are created in other works of fiction with no need for chips. They have absolutely no idea of their orders and even after activation might not know that they had done something. They are just programmed, brainwashed not chipwashed. Diric Wessiri in the old X-wing novels was one.

3. It is activated programming that takes away the clone's freewill in TCW. But it would make more sense (and be a lot easier I would think) to program the clone rather than a biochip. A question, is there any other biotechnology in canon? The biochip is a very Yuuzhun vong type of thing.

4. If the clone has no idea that the order exists in their brain because it hasn't been activated then how could a jedi possibly sense anything is wrong. The jedi are not subconscious mind readers.

5. If one chip could just malfunction on its own just like that, it would be unlikely that it didn't happen again with such a large number of clones out there for it to happen to, in my opinion.

6. But we do see camaraderie between Kenobi and his clones in RotS. They could be friendly and kind with him, but when ordered to kill him they instantly chose to obey and fired at him. You don't need a Manchurian sleeper biochip to make that believable. The clones were weapons created by evil.

 

If you watch The Clone Wars most of this is answered. A lot of your comment is correct if you disregard TCW series. Sam, if you're coming at this from the angle that the series doesn't count, then there is no need for me to reply in detail. The Biochips are only needed for TCW to match back up with the movies by the time the story gets to Order 66.

I will respond to a few of these for TCW fans out there.

First of all the biochips are biological in part, so they don't standout as more than an anomaly of tissue in the brain if they aren't being looked for. The defective one stoodout more because it has physically deformed when it malfunctioned. When the Kaminoans are questioned about the biochips the cover story is that the biochips are inhibitor chips. These are part of the genetic modifications they mention in Attack of the Clones that make clones less independent than Jango Fett.

On the Clone Wars it is framed so to the Jedi it looks like the clones will go mad without the chip. Only Captain Rex, Wolfe, and Gregor suspect it's not vital to have.

TCW shows us that only a few top Kaminoans are aware of the chips real purpose. There are like five Kaminoans who are in direct contact with Lord Tyranus. The rest of Kaminoans think the biochips are inhibitors.

Again TCW contradicts this. The clones in action aren't 'totally' obedient without the biochip.

If you are disregarding The Clone Wars, then you can disregard biochips. Technically ignoring TCW is the same thing as ignoring Return of the Jedi happened, but to each their own. It does create a strange space for debate on topics like the BioChip.

I think it's actually more that the chip is both made of organic material and computer parts. So less like the Yuuzhun Vong and like machinery that is part organic to help hide it.

I think it's actually more that the chip is both made of organic material and computer parts. So less like the Yuuzhun Vong and like machinery that is part organic to help hide it.

But we don't see that on TCW. It happened once. One time and only once a clone was activated early and killed a Jedi.

It's different on TCW than what you see in RotS.

Sounds like more of an issue with changes to cannon on how TCW overwrote the EU books set between AotC and RotS.

The chip means the clones don't need to be trained for Order 66 the way a sleeper agent is conditioned to have secret orders they later forgot. Palpatine's plan is more clandestine and must be done in plain sight of his enemies without them knowing.

 

It isn't quite the same. Ignoring TCW takes you back to the canon of 2007. Ignoring RotJ happened would be just crazy as the whole EU is built on those films.

 

Sounds like selective head canon. For George Lucas and Lucasfilm TCW and RotJ are on the same level. It's the official story going forward Them's the facts. We see Darth Maul in Solo a Star Wars story.

But again if someone hasn't seen TCW or disregards it - then the biochips are not necessary for the story within in original six films. It's like ignoring the the ewoks.

But it makes debates like this weird. What we're really debating is 'Do you like the biochips or do you not like the biochips?' Not 'Are there biochips?' because the story going forward is always going to be 'Order 66 was mind control implemented with a control chip that removed free will from the clones'

 

I don't see any tension. They were told to fully cooperate with the Jedi until Order 66. There is no indication that Cody genuinely cared about Obi Wan out of his own free will. There is also no sign that they suddenly turned vicious after Order 66 was given. They followed that order the same way they follow any other order. There is no change of heart, only a change of orders.

 

To me the movies is what I go with because at no point was I told in any of the films "You need to read this book to understand the story" or "You need to watch this TV series in order for the films to make sense."

They still stand out MORE than the genetic alteration. Which makes the chip bad from the point of view of not alerting the Jedi to this.

And the genetic alteration does not need an inhibitor chip. If you alter the DNA, that is done, it is in all cells, all the time.
And again, if the Jedi were not told about any chip but they find out later, that makes it more likely that they will smell a rat.

Does not matter, the genetic alteration is impossible to remove, if removing the chip is only hard, that is still easier.
So again from the point of view of making sure the clones wipe out the Jedi, the chips are a risk.

And a few are still more than zero, which is what would be the number of Kamio people if all the clones had was the genetic modification to make them totally obedient.
No need even for order 66. The clones obey any order and since Palpatine has the highest authority, he can give any order he chooses. No chip is needed.

It is TCW's job to be consistent with the films, not the other way around.

No that is a bad comparison. ANH and ESB require RotJ. Remove that and the story is incomplete and a lot of issues are left unresolved.
TCW is not required in order to watch, follow and enjoy the PT and OT as evidenced by the loads of people that did so without watching TCW.

In fact TCW had no been made when RotS was shown in theaters so how exactly was people supposed to have seen that before watching RotS?

But the genetic tampering to make them totally obedient removes the need for any training.
If Palpatine tells a clone to stand on one leg and bark like a dog, the clone will obey instantly.
There is no need for training, the clone simply obeys.
If Palpatine tells the clone to slaughter babies, the clone obeys. No need for conditioning or training.
The clone simply has no possibility to disobey orders.
Same with killing the Jedi. As long as Palpatine had a higher rank than the Jedi, he could order the clones to kill any time he wants and the clones would do so. No conditioning, no training, no chips, no nothing.

So to sum up, the chips can be detected and removed, both of which are not possible with the genetic tampering.
The chips require some Kamino people be in on this which runs a higher risk of discovery than if zero Kamino people were involved.
So it increases the risk of discovery and the foiling of Palpatine's plan.

But the if the chip was invented to make the clones less of the "bad guys". That they had been shown as friendly and nice before but with order 66, that was gone.
No need for a chip.
There are plenty of stories where someone has been "tampered" with and been "programmed" to do a certain something when a specific order is given.
They could still act friendly and be good friends but when the command kicks in, all of that don't matter.
The clones are totally obedient, that means they can sit and chat with a jedi and be totally friendly but if they get an order "kill this Jedi." they would do so without hesitation.
Because they can not disobey orders.
A chip isn't needed here.

If the goal was to shown some clones disobeying orders and not doing order 66.
Ok a chip could work but again it is not needed.
You could simply say that rarely the genetic tampering was not done correctly when the clone was grown. Normally such anomalies were discovered during their training but very rarely such an anomaly could slip through the cracks.

The only way I can see the chip as needed is as a back-up plan if Palpatine would get voted out of office before he can tell the clones to do order 66.

Bye for now.
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