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Saga OT Force vs. PT Prophecy

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Obi-Ewan, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Forgiving the lie does not mean thinking it is OK to lie in the first place.

    It means not summoning moral outrage against Obi-Wan for it.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    For a more famous example of a "lie to protect people" (the Rebel Alliance):

    "Dantooine. They're on Dantooine".
     
  3. Darth Maaliss

    Darth Maaliss Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Leia didnt need to lie. Fact is, she would have known that Alderaan was going to be attacked regardless of what she said.
     
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  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    So, your belief is that she should have told them they were on Yavin 4, instead of lying to protect the Alliance and possibly spare Alderaan? Why would she assume that Tarkin would go ahead and blow up Alderaan? Her line of thinking, which Tarkin had already deduced was that the Empire was going to be more interested in destroying the Alliance wherever they were hiding, rather than destroying a world that they were not on. That's why Tarkin says that Dantooine is too far away in the Outer Rim, compared to Alderaan which was in the Core Worlds. She lied to protect the Alliance and Tarkin even bought it.

    OFFICER CASS: "Our scout ships have reached Dantooine. They found the remains of a Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the surrounding systems."

    TARKIN: "She lied! She lied to us!"

    VADER: "I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion."
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012

    "Continue with the operation, you may fire when ready."
    "WHAT?!"
    "You're far too trusting."

    Sounds like she didn't know.
     
  6. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Maybe we need a new thread about the merits of lying. This one used to be about comparing the way in which the force was portrayed in the two trilogies with regard to choice / destiny.

    I think...
     
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  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Leia should have just told Tarkin to **** himself.

    Would have achieved the same result and been enjoyable to watch.

    But yeah, maybe a new thread. This one has veered off the rails quite a few times.
     
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  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    How big a part did "Anakin may be the prophesied Chosen One" play in the Council's decision-making, I wonder?

    Did they decide to send 200 Jedi to Geonosis because "Our (potential) Chosen One must be saved at any cost" or was that not the main reason Jedi were sent there?
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I would think none as Mace had just told Anakin to stay with Padme on Tatooine and NOT go to Geonosis. So they would not know he was there.
    The only Jedi they knew were there is Obi-Wan and he could be dead as far as they knew.

    The Jedi went, it seems to me, to stop the droid armies being delivered to the TF, capture or kill Dooku and stop the war before it even begins.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    They were there for Obi-wan, not Anakin. They didn't know that Anakin was going there.

    MACE: "Anakin, we will deal with Count Dooku. The most important thing for you is to stay where you are. Protect the Senator at all costs. That is your first priority."

    They didn't check his tracking device to see if he stayed or not. They were surprised to find him and Padme there, but they had brought more than one spare Lightsaber for good measure. They were also their to launch a decisive first strike to stop the Confederacy from launching their first strike.
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    A fact which we learned in the almighty OT, many years before the prequels. So what would have been the "wise" choice? Doing prequels that were only consistent with ANH while ignoring the Vader = Anakin retcon that was made irrevocable by TESB and ROTJ?
     
  12. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    Do you know what 'emphasised' means? Perhaps it was the context that you didn't get? I was pointing out that the story hardly corresponds with that line being a truth..and that even much later - when making the PT - that was emphasised. I was responding to the idea that Lucas had planned it well to fit, which I don't believe he did - a fact that you emphasise (that word again) by asking whether the story should only reference ANH - highlighting the discrepancy that exists...which was my point.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But it still isn't a discrepancy when all is said and done. He still trained Darth Vader and it is Vader who destroyed Anakin Skywalker.
     
  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    But everyone knows that Vader = Anakin was a retcon, so reiterating that fact seems of little use. The same can be said for pointing out that the PT respected TESB & ROTJ's retcon. How could the PT have been expected to do anything else?
     
  15. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    It's all about context. I responded to the idea that the ret-conning was handled well, because I don't believe that it was. Not only was it not handled well in the first instance but the much later prequels emphasise how out of whack Obi-Wan's lines in ANH are. As a coping mechanism, as a psychological crutch (the 'certain pov') there is no way that Obi-Wan would reference the boy he trained as being Darth Vader.

    As I say, bottom line, I was responding to the idea that Lucas handled the ret-con well, because I think it was clumsy and jarring. Context is always important.
     
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  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    In other words, it was a retcon.

    In other words, the prequels maintained consistency with the retcon instead of throwing it out.
     
  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    You really do have a problem with context don't you? I'll say it again. I was responding to the idea that the retcon was handled well, not arguing that it was a retcon. You'll see that you have here actually quoted me saying exactly that. So, what is your point?

    Let me try and explain this. You seem to think I am making a point that it is a retcon, or that it should correspond to ANH. I am making the point that the retcon wasn't handled well, as I see it, even at the time of the retcon - in response to the claim that it was; and that, further, the prequels emphasise how poorly that retcon was handled - they emphasise how poorly the retcon was handled. No claim that it should have said something different, not trying to 'prove' that it is a retcon, but simply showing how jarring the retcon is (how poorly handled), a disjoint that is emphasised by the much later prequels - which they have to because they are consistent with the retcon.

    In response to the idea that the retcon was handled well. You seem to be disagreeing/taking umbrage with an argument that was never made. You've made the argument up in your head.

    There is a point, you know, at which it is reasonable to address that you may have misunderstood something. Is even that concept beyond you?
     
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  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Retcons are jarring by their very nature. To complain that a retcon is "jarring" is to complain that water is, in fact, wet... and equally pointless.
     
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  19. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    As usual...part quoting, shifting your argument...anything other than ceding. I will say it once more - in response to. Anyways, you've reminded me why you were on my ignore list.
     
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  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That did not happen. All of my posts on this subject have been making the same argument. However, they used different words, and I suppose that can be confusing!

    It appears to be broken.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Let's make this simple, what would you want Lucas to have done? Introduce Darth Vader and have him trained and then killed, only for Anakin to take his name when he becomes evil as a giant middle finger to Obi-wan?
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I would have wanted Lucas to plan the story out well enough in advance that he didn't need the characters to throw out bull**** about a "certain point of view" in order to cover his whimsical tracks.

    I would have had Obi-Wan respond when asked how his father died: "Your father is still alive and working for the Empire. Unfortunately he bought into evil, and we may have to destroy him in order to preserve the galaxy."
     
  23. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    That's reasonable, but he didn't plan it out that way and yet its still just so damn good regardless of its production make up.
     
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    There's no drama in that. It's awful.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You don't think that Luke finding out that his father is an Imperial would warrant a reaction.

    I don't need Obi-Wan to tell a bald-faced lie and then bull**** through it in order to have a good story.

    The truth is interesting enough on its own.

    Your argument sounds similar to the arguments made by people who think every romance has to have a love triangle in order to "create tension" or "have a challenge."
     
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