Padme Amidala: an accessory to murder

That was my thought as well. She looks horrified when he says that he slaughtered the whole village.

I don't think she was out of line to forgive him; I do think she should have encouraged him to go to Obi-Wan or Yoda about what happened though, simply because he's a Jedi and he knows he's better than that. He would want to stop himself from losing control again, and at the time of AOTC, I believe he genuinely did want to stop such a thing from happening again.

As far as the Tuskens who lost "fathers and sons," you mean the fathers and sons who kidnapped an innocent woman and tortured her to death? Can we blame Padme for sympathizing with a young man whose mother was brutally murdered and decided to enact on her killers the only possible justice on that planet? I think it is possible to do this without condoning the slaughter of the innocent women and children in the tribe.

 

I dunno. A subtle change of expression doesn't really cut it. I'm not saying she should be histrionic, but good grief, the man killed a whole village. She just didn't seem that disturbed by Anakin's admission that he essentially perpetrated an act of genocide, or even after his episode of megalomania when he talks about becoming immortal and all-powerful. Did this conversation ever set off alarms in her head when Anakin tried to turn on the charm? Moreover, Padme condoning an act of vigilantism, which is what Anakin's motivation was, is totally out of character. If anything, she should have asked something like "why the entire village?" I get that Anakin wanted justice, but not every Tusken in that community necessarily beat Shmi to a pulp. For all we know, it could've just been the men standing guard outside the tent. But Anakin killed every last one, indiscriminately. If we set aside the enabling and co-dependent aspects of Padme's personality, and focus only on the upright and idealistic lawmaker aspect, I'd hazard a guess that, if Padme's lines were molded for plot, she'd have a major problem with the slaughter.

 

A few points:

"Genocide" would mean he wiped out the entire Tusken species, not one village. "Genocide" would also mean that he set out to "kill them damn Tuskens" as opposed to rescuing his mother.

"Someday I will become the most powerful Jedi ever. I will even learn to stop people from dying." I saw that as disappointment with himself for not acting on his vision and going to save his mother earlier. Which also explains his anger at Obi-Wan in the same speech, because when he talked to Obi-Wan on Coruscant about his visions, Obi-Wan dismissed him, evidently more than once. Anakin was not trying to charm Padme in this scene. He was saying, "It's my fault that my mother died, I didn't act quickly enough, and I'll be damned if I ever let that happen again." Yes, he did want to stop people from dying, although not necessarily himself (which would be "seeking immortality" as you said), and yes, he did want power, in order to free slaves on Tatooine, stop people from dying, etc.

No, Padme would not condone an act of vigilantism--on Naboo, or on Coruscant. But she knows what Tatooine is like, she knows that vigilantism is the only justice system they have. While she would not condone vigilantism under normal circumstances, she also would not condone allowing the Tusken Raiders to bully, kidnap and torture innocent settlers.

She very well could have asked "Why the entire village?" but I'm not sure Anakin was in a fit state of mind to explain it at that point. And yes, there was reason to believe that all the men in the camp either participated or condoned Shmi's torture. The Wookieepedia link on the Tuskens says that kidnap and torture is an adolescent male rite of passage. Evidently they did this to women like Shmi on a regular basis.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tusken_Raiders

So if all the men in the tribe did not participate in Shmi's torture, the remainder of them were "accessories to murder" for not stopping it.

 

Do you think Padme did this research before deciding whether or not to forgive his act? Do you think she did this research before deciding to marry him?

 

But would she still approve of Anakin's actions? I mean, we've already seen that Padme is uncompromising in her support of justice as the Republic defines it - she's not a relativist and I simply can't imagine her condoning mass murder because Tatooine doesn't have any functional law enforcement. It never came up again. I dunno, I'd think she'd have considered that one aspect of Anakin's personality, because at that moment, he was bereft of his Jedi mask. In his vulnerability and pain, he showed her a darker side, and I don't think a well-written Padme would have simply brushed the incident under the rug. She never once asked Anakin about it afterwards. Moreover, she agreed to keep silent about an act that disturbed her and stood against her own conscience? That's a bit of a reversal.

As for the Tuskens being accessories to murder, I agree. But there's nothing to say that women and every child participated in this ritual. Was every child undergoing a rite of passage at the exact same moment? I don't know.

 

Padme learned quite a bit about Tatooine's justice system in The Phantom Menace. "The Republic doesn't exist out here. We must survive on our own." I don't know if she knew about the blood rites, although I would argue that she very well might have learned about them off screen. She spent the night with Cliegg, Owen and Beru while Anakin went to get his mother from the Tusken camp. Cliegg had tried to retrieve his wife and as a means of thanks, the Tuskens chopped his leg off, not to mention killing 26 farmers who also tried to rescue Shmi. Cliegg called them "vicious, mindless monsters." I can't imagine that Padme wouldn't ask any questions, although in her shoes, the information I just posted, which we heard from on-screen dialogue, would be enough for me to lose any sympathy for them.

As far as Padme not condoning mass murder because Tatooine didn't have law enforcement--do you really think that she would condone the Tuskens being allowed to get away with kidnapping, vicious torture, and mass murder? Because that's the other alternative. They killed 26 farmers plus Shmi, and they kidnapped and tortured Shmi. Do you really think that Padme would view their actions as somehow more acceptable than Anakin's? I don't. And had Anakin not killed them, they would have continued to kidnap, torture and murder other settlers. There was no police force and there were no jails on Tatooine, Jabba's Palace not withstanding.

I don't think she approved of Anakin's actions, not against the women and children anyway. We can disagree about whether she had a look of horror on her face; I certainly saw one. The fact that she didn't bring it up again on screen doesn't mean much to me, because immediately after Shmi's funeral, they got the message that Obi-Wan was in trouble, went to Geonosis, nearly got executed themselves, Anakin got his arm chopped off, the Clone Wars started, etc.

 

Yeah, but what you just outlined is essentially "eye for eye" justice - because the Tuskens themselves are barbaric and bloodthirsty, killing indiscriminately (and often ritually), it is justified to slaughter an entire village in an act of retribution, regardless of whether each and every Tusken was guilty enough to warrant execution. To be honest, I would probably sympathize with Anakin's position, and the position of the settlers - they are being hunted down and killed like chattel by the indigenous peoples over essentially a ritualized turf war. But its inconsistent with Padme's character to simply give the equivalent of a brief "" when she hears that he slaughtered a village of these creatures, instead of a harsher reprimand. In every other situation, she shows an uncompromising devotion to ideals, whether practical or not. Why not also in the lawless parts of the Galaxy?

Also, the settlers did ride into battle against the Tuskens. Cliegg got his leg sliced off by a trap during the skirmish, which ended up being a bloodbath. The difference is that Anakin's motives w

 

Great point, Falor. Let's say Padme is on a spaceship in deep space, wild space, where there is no legal jurisdication or justice system of any kind. Let's say Padme witnesses a murder, or even commits a murder. Is it not defined as murder simply because there is no legal system or justice system? NO! It's still murder! A legal system is simply a codification that arises out of our morals, values, and principles. It's not something that pops out of thin air depending on where we are located. It's what we hold true as being right from wrong.

 

And yet it all takes place in a galaxy where people carry around blasters out in the open. Han Solo killed Greedo in the Cantina, in daylight, with lots of witnesses...goes on to become the husband of the Chief of State of the New Republic. No trial. No arrest. No investigation. Obi-Wan Kenobi uses his lightsaber to perform an amputation minutes before, and why, because of a little pushing and shoving? Yet he is revered as being a great Jedi Knight. Luke Skywalker single handedly kills hundreds of thousands of people with a single shot. They may have been military, but if that happened here, there would most certainly be some kind of war crimes trial going on. Leia chokes a crime boss to death who was the defacto governing authority on Tatooine. Heroes. The entire main cast of Star Wars have the blood of countless beings on their heads. Why not attempt to make more useless threads about how they are all criminals too?

The rules of the GFFA simply do NOT parallel the rules here. Its fantasy, accept it, and move on.

 

Yay! Darth_Davi is back blatting nothing but examples of self-defense and how murder went unpunished so other murder is acceptable as well! And yet, we hear statements in the prequels like "is that legal" and "He must stand trial!" Seems as though the legal system means something.

 

I talked to my gf about this, and she said that she wouldn't report me.

But who would she report it to if there's no Republic authority on Tattoine? Is she under any obligation to Report it to the Jedi? Legally I say no, but morally I would say yes.She'd have to know that what he did was against the Jedi code. But she loves Anakin & would not report him.

But I wonder if there's a little well, racism going on here. The Tuskens are allways being referred to as mindless animals. So, for kicks let me ask this.

What if this happened on Naboo and these were Gungans or the average human Naboo citizen. Would Padme have said something then?

 

Since Jedi are officers of the Republic and function in many roles, including law enforcement and diplomacy, I would think there would definitely be a legal precedent for taking action. Imagine if you were a cop in the US and you decided one day that ,you would go to like...Zimbabwe, or Somalia, or whatever, and slaughter a village, to put it simply. You'd probably lose your job if the incident were reported (or not, if the great blue wall of law enforcement obstructionism kicks in to protect you), and possibly be prosecuted. That's at least what would have happened to Anakin had he returned to Coruscant.

As for the Gungans, I think Padme would care. They are denizens of her homeworld. Sandpeople she knows next to nothing about from experience, and it wouldn't have the same impact.

 

That's very interesting point about racism, or perhaps speciesism. Another question that may be asked is: are we interjecting our own racism, or the possible racism of the creator, or the racism of Clieg Lars, or the racism of someone else onto the character of Padme in regards to her outlook on the Sandpeople?

The Sandpeople are completely covered so we cannot see how they look. They sound ugly, so perhaps they are ugly. They sound like animals...so it's not a stretch to then consider them "mindless beasts". And if they are mindless beasts, then it's that much easier to ignore their deaths. They are just savage monsters after all. And so we see the scenario played out in AOTC and the deaths of the Sandpeople conveniently swept under the rug...swept under the rug not just in the films, but perhaps by the audience as well.

However, I refuse to follow that line of logic. I refuse to allow Clieg Lars POV of the Sandpeople to become my POV. Anakin and Padme kept the killing of the Sandpeople as a secret between them. I want to know why.

 

Anakin and Padme kept the killing of the Sandpeople as a secret between them. I want to know why.
Not quite. Somewhere along the line, Anakin told Palpatine.

 

Where in my post did I go back to "blatting about self defense? Did I even use the words self-defense? You seem to be getting hostile, Ahsoka...you are so damned adamant that Padme is an accessory to murder, but, when given your chance to accuse the OT heroes of committing equally if not more egregious crimes, you won't do it. I was giving you an opportunity to remain consistent...and you wouldn't do it. Thank you for proving your hypocrisy. You had your chance to condemn Obi-Wan, Luke, Han and Leia for actions that would probably be crimes as well, but wouldn't do it. What is it about Padme that you hate so much? Are you simply angry that Padme gets Anakin, and Ahsoka ends up dead? Is it a jealousy thing?

"is that legal" and "he must stand trial" both refer to events that were committed by members of the Republic, against other members of the Republic. Obviously, the Republic's set of laws would apply to things that happen within its jurisdiction. The Trade Federation, at the time they attempted their blockade of Naboo, prompting the "is that legal?" quote, were members of the Republic. "he must stand trial" refers to the Emperor, who was the chief of state for the Republic. Trying to equate those quotes with what happened on Tatooine, a planet where everyone seems to be in agreement is outside of the Republic's jurisdiction, is absolute ridiculousness at its finest.

 

"However, I refuse to follow that line of logic. I refuse to allow Clieg Lars POV of the Sandpeople to become my POV. Anakin and Padme kept the killing of the Sandpeople as a secret between them. I want to know why."

Ok. Even though that's ugly, I suspect that may be it. Hey, she shed a tear when he killed the younglings in the Temple. Is there proof the Sandpeople Younglings had a hand in Shmi's death? Be cool to have Det. Lenny Broscoe question her.

Ok then, try this one: she loved him. She knows what will happen if she tells the Order. Expulsion. Given the way it went down, the Jedi would NOT like that. Sand Padme knows how important it is ti Anakin to be a Jedi.

Second, I wonder if he told her EXACTLY what happened and how. Yeah he told her he killed them all, but why? Did he tell her he'd been discovered & had to fight his way out?

But I'm curious, if you were in her place(either SW galaxy or the real world) would you tell?

Another dark reason is maybe she thought it was justifiable? But then that would be out of character wouldn't it?

Also, maybe with the Clone Wars breaking out, it fell by the wayside. Bigger fish to fry.

These are the only reasons I can see why she didn't say anything?

But that's Padme, a bigger question is why didn't Hett say anything?

 

Why aren't you equally as upset about the murders of Shmi and the 26 farmers? Why are those OK, and why should the Tusken men be allowed to get away with those? Why are you only interested in Anakin and Padme? Is it OK to torture and murder an innocent person for being in your space, but it's not OK to execute vigilante justice on the men who tortured and murdered your mother?

Speaking of some murder being acceptable and other murder not being acceptable...you might want to look in the mirror before you start on Darth_Davi.

Assuming Anakin had never had a vision and never gone to Tatooine at all, how would you suggest that the Tusken men be brought to justice?

 

Well said.

And you know, about Leia...we're probably all prejudiced against the Hutts too. We just don't like fat slobs. Poor ole' Jabba, he was just trying to get his money back. Why does Leia get to choke him just because she's a princess?

 

The deaths of the moisture farmers are not OK. Shmi's death is not OK. She was only picking mushrooms. She wasn't out to hurt anyone. For what ungodly purpose would the Sandpeople abduct her? Anakin, as a Jedi, feels that he is the only hope his mother has left. He sets out to find her and discovers her on the verge of death, a victim of unspeakable torture. She dies in his arms and Anakin is incensed with rage. He decides to make her torturers pay for what they've done. He slaughters each and every single one of them.
Is he proud of what he's done?
Did it bring Shmi back to him?
Did he feel the same cutting down the male Tusken as he did cutting down the women and children that fled from him?
He tells Padme about what he's done and how it's not the Jedi way. She comforts him.

I definitely understand Anakin and Padme's perspective. I'm sure I would have done the same if I were in either's shoes. Did they do the right thing? Did they really have no other alternatives?

 

Huh? Didn't he say that he slaughtered them "like animals," leaving not one man, woman, or child alive? Or that he hated them? That doesn't seem like the kind of person who would have been concerned with escaping unnoticed. Plus, if he was trying to sneak back out, he'd have never marched out of that tent when there was a nice hole on the other side that he cut himself.

Also, while Shmi's death was unequivocally murder, but the 26 settlers were killed in a skirmish. They weren't killed by the Tuskens in cold blood because technically, the settlers were launching an organized assault to rescue Shmi, and many were armed for the job.

 

The thing is we see what he did. My point is, did he tell Padme that. He slaughtered them yes, and he told her. My question is did he water it down for her later? Maybe saying he did it while escaping? Or just left it at the stone cold explanation we see he gave her.

 

Ummm, what? So a skirmish, which would have been the equivalent of something like an old western gunfight between citizens, and not involving any form of legal authority isn't cold blood, simply because both sides were trying to kill each other? So if a group of thugs kidnaps someone, in a location where the law has no reach, and a group of people go to rescue them, and get shot and killed, the thugs didn't murder them?

 

Well love is blind and maybe that was what Lucas was trying to convey. It's all about choices and if Padme had told Obi-won what anakin did in AOTC then who knows what would have happened. Instead she covers up the act and when it is taken to another level in ROTS the damage is already done. Keeping secrets and telling lies will always be one's undoing and that was Padme's undoing.

 

Agreed.

 

LOL....ditto!