Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

I plan to put up a detailed analysis of Palpatine in _Dark Lord_, but it will have to wait until I am back home. This is a tough place to use the computer.

 

Thanks, rhonderoo !


You guys can have fun with this. I don't think I'll be reading it for some time. But I am interested to see what you folks think. I really should get myself a copy of this.

 

Edit: I'll return this post later.

 

Both the ROTS and ROTJ novels suggest so, at least to me. From ROTS:

"In the end, the shadow [Palpatine] is all you [Vader] have left. Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself--"

And from ROTJ:

"Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery--of secret lusts, of unrestrained passion, wild submission--all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."

As for Palpatine, he's harder to figure, but let's not forget that he allowed Vader to return to stand at his side in the end, even though Vader had betrayed him. He died trusting in Vader. The ROTS novel says as much: "The key to final victory... the shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker." It goes without saying that the Sith don't give trust easily.

I think it's safe to say that Vader and Palpatine had a complex relationship, one that's hard to work out. Of course Vader wants to kill his Master -- that's what Sith do -- but that doesn't necessarily preclude some amount of affection for him. They were, after all, together for twenty years.

 

All very interesting points. I have yet to read this new book. ( ) But when I do, I will keep all of this in mind. I can pretty much agree with this to a point.

However, I find it still difficult to think that there was no sense of affection between them. It doesn't have to be the kind we would like to have, but a more twisted and odd sort of bond. Palpy might cast aside morals and ethics. That's a given really. But see, he did trust Anakin and did so (As stated above ) in the end. So he's busy having "fun" with Lukie boy and Vader's next to/behind him. Eh, Vader's not going to do anything. Why does he think this?

I think the little spark some people want to see is still found in this sense of trust. Or is it more a sense of control? The ROTJ Novel does have a sentence toward the end that reads something like "crawling like a wounded animal to his master's side." Palpatine understands that Vader will always need him in a way. Without someone to help, he is nothing more than an animal.

Palpatine probably feels good about this. The fact that someone NEEDS him. Anakin always needed him. And always would afterwords. What the Emperor is counting on is that the younger Skywalkers will give into his power and Vader does not have that kind of influence. Anakin just doesn't factor in as a threat. He's not even an advantage by the end. He's a slave. A pathetic man who will always need Palpatine.

Perhaps Palpatine felt that Anakin, even if he did come back, would not kill him because Anakin was caught up in this father figure relation. Vader is a Sith, so he wants to kill. But he won't. It is this trust that seems to suggest a deeper connection.

But we all know it wasn't that deep. After all, need I remind you of the throwing of Palpy into the reactor?

How come Palpatine never thought of this? Trust.

That is the one thing that remains. Control, manipulation, whatever the methods, one way or the other, Palpatine ends up trusting Vader. So much so that he doesn't pay attention anymore.

And I personally, still say Vader seems sad after Palpy is gone. That moment looking down into the empty shaft, raspy breathing. I'm sorry, I see a tender moment.

Poor Anakin, he NEVER wanted this. He wanted the perfect life. Padme, the kids, the Jedi power, the Kenobi friendship and....the father. Yes, I think he wanted his father. And don't say that's not what he thought of Palpatine.

The revelation of Sidious was probably a tough blow indeed. Still, Ani thought he could set things right. Once he helped Palpy out, he could still have the wife and kids and the father and maybe even his brother (Obi-wan). They could all be one big happy family!

Yeah......right. For starters, Anakin's love for Padme was twisted. (another matter) Sidious had no intention of helping Padme. And I think Anakin knew this. But by then, it was too late.

Interesting. Palpatine betrayed Anakin's DEEP trust. But our friend the Sith never thought that Vader might one day do the same to him.

 

The Master belatedly realizes that he has missed a question.

The question is as follows--given that Your Majesty was known to favor high-caliber aides such as Sate Pestage and Ars Dangor both before his assumption of the Senatorial Chair and after his acclamation to the Imperial Throne, why did Your Majesty make use of such inferior cretins as Sly Moore and Mas Amedda?

Master Jello:

"Inferior cretins?" *blinks*

Rest assured that I choose my servants most carefully, and that each is uniquely qualified for the position in which I use them.

Are you questioning my judgement?

 

OK. Weesa needin' a new topic.

I want to know, if anyone's found any good Palpatine websites out there. Or any Palpatine websites at all, for that matter!

 

try this one. very dry, not much info, but good graphics and pics.

 

I know this site can't be trusted that much, but the Wookiepedia has a huge Palpy article. Yes, all the stuff is gathered from other sites, but it is so cool seeing it all in one place.

They discuss everything from:
Early Life (Including Plagueis)
Senator Years
Invasion of Naboo
Seduction of Dooku
Clone Wars
The Republic Under Palpatine
Need for a New Apprentice
Seduction of Anakin Skywalker
The New Order
The Civil War
The Temptation of Luke Skywalker
The EU (Dark Empire)
Fighting Styles
Lightsabers
Appearance/Portrayel
Palpatine in Pop Culture
Historical Influences
The Debate on his Face

 

OMG that thing is long!!

My eyes are crossing ...

But I didn't see any links to fan fic on there ...

Edit: found it.

 

Eons back I promised to post McDiarmid's quotes about Palpy when I found the box where the mags were hiding. I have since found them. These are all Insider interviews, btw. However, they were all done in conjunction with each of the PT releases. I'm sticking to quotes about the characterization. I have paraphrased where possible so I can stay within Fair Use guidelines.

TPM:

The interviewer asks him if GL gave him any backstory to work with. "Very little, really. Like everybody else, I've read the books and worked things out, but I think it's quite good that I know as little as I do. I'm left with the best tools really, which are just the lines, the other actors, and the situation. He's a mysterious dark character, but that suits me and it suits him, because I wouldn't want to do anything to dispel the mystery, or to lighten the darkness."

He was asked about his choice for the voice in ROTJ(he took inspiration from toads). "I thought he looked like a toad. That was toward the end of his life, and he was an extremely bitter and desiccated man. Earlier on, he was a flamboyant talent. I think the Emperor probably escaped bitterness [total contradiction]. He didn't need to worry about being bitter, because there's nobody more powerful than him--except in the end of course, when suddenly his whole reliance on the doctrine of fear didn't pay off."

AOTC:

Interviewer mentions Palpatine in TPM. [stuff about the nature of politicians and equivocation] "But at the same time, I know that underneath all that is an evil soul. The undercurrents are always there in his mind and in his gut. Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that's interesting to play. I suppose it's rather like playing Iago. [Referring to the characters in Othello] think that "honest Iago" is a decent guy doing his job, and he's quite liked. But at the same time theres a tremendous evil subconscious in operation."

He's asked about conveying trustworthiness/while still alerting the audience to the opposite. "I suppose that in a sense, he is hypersincere--defensively sincere. He is a supreme actor. He has to be even more convincing than somebody who isn't behaving in a schizophrenic fashion, so he's extra charming, or extra professional" [snip]

[the characters in the scene--I think he's referring to his first scene in AOTC] "they'll see he is apparently moved--and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it's also a bit of a turn-on--the pure exercise of pwoer is what he's all about. That's the only thing he's interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him--which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He's more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell--he has a history, and it's one of revenge.[IM later references Milton, so I think he's referring to Paradise Lost here]

But the Emperor-well, I don't all the details, but who does of the Sith?--is an independent agent who just lives for the exercise of power. He doesn't know what scruples are, let alone have any. The only emotion that manifests itself truly is the one seen just before he meets his end, if that's what he meets, in Jedi--and then it's pure anger..."

Interviewer: "He has no sorrow about his mistakes, just pure
anger?"

IM: "Just anger. And his great strength is that he's not fearful [stuff about Luke and Vader]...terror is what he specializes in. It's what motivates him and governs his every action--his understanding of the nature of terror. He believes that everyone can be terrorized, or seduced by one thing or another."

He's asked about the appeal of evil characters. He talks more about Milton's Satan being a "soul in torment". "But that's not the case with the Emperor, which makes it so interesting. He doesn't have any of those potentially redemptive qualities. I imagine he's evil from birth, which is a terrible thing to imagine. He's not human."

Interviewer: "So he has no awareness of how different he is from other people

 

Oooh, thanks so much for posting all that! That was a lot of typin'.

Of course you know I'm a fan of nature over nurture, but that's just me. But you can sure see, over the years, some small about-faces by Ian. I just finished my mammoth SW fan fic about an hour ago, so these things are much on my mind these days.

Since we've got such great quotes here, are there any more on Palpatine/the Sith that anyone else can contribute? We can take up a collection!

I've been looking for one in particular by GL about how the Sith are the way they are because they have been brutally raised and trained from earliest childhood. I think it was in one of the big movie release interviews, in Time or Vanity Fair. Barring several hours to spend in a Very Bid Library with years of back issues of these magazines on microfiche, however, I don't see how I'm going to find it ...

 

Oh, totally. And he contradicts himself a couple of times in the same interview. To be fair, a)he's giving an interview for a fan magazine, not Charlie Rose and b)considering how much time goes by between each film, it's not surprising that his opinions changed.

If you have any more to go on, I can try and hunt it down (I'm a reference librarian).

 

I really don't.

All I remember is, it was somewhere close to movie release time, either AOTC or possibly for TPM, one of those Great Big Important Interviews that George tended to give to Great Big Important Magazines when a prequel was about to premiere. I don't think it was for ROTS, because it wasn't that recent. (If it had've been, I'd have bought it, because I was working on this story and I would have known I needed it.)

We're not talking Scholastic Weekly Reader. It was Time or Newsweek or Vanity Fair.

 

I got to thinking about this as I read more about Dooku and noted a few similarities between him and Anakin.

Palpatine loves to manipulate people. I think it's his weapon of choice. Where would he have acquired that extreme love of influencing others under cover of pretense and falsehood? How did he learn it? Is there some Sith class in this that all masters are required to teach, or is he self-taught?

 

I think it has to be an inherent talent particular to Palpy. I'm sure it goes hand-in-hand with his abilities in the political arena.


Looking at Maul, there's almost no subtlety at all, unless he's acting under Palpatine's directive. As a Sith Lord he keeps himself hidden from the Jedi early on, but obviously can't wait for the day to arrive when he'll be allowed to directly engage the Jedi.

Maul would best be described as a weapon that Palpatine plans to unleash against the Jedi. If Manipulation 101 is a part of the Sith curriculum, Maul apparently only audited the course.

 

Hi!I'm pretty new to this site but I know quite a bit about Palpatine.Since he was the Senator Of Naboo in TPM,we can assure he was from Naboo and still cared a little about his homeworld.So around 85-90 years before TPM,Darth Plaguise discoverd Dantius Palpatine and trained him into the evil bieng we see in the Star Wars saga.He killed Plaguise and became the ultimate Sith Lord Of All Time.

So,effectively,he wasn't born evil.

 

I think that, while manipulation is probably given its due in the Sith curriculum, Palpy has raised it to an art form that other Sith have never so much as considered.

I also think that, because of his basically selfish nature and inherent inability to empathize with the feelings of others, he didn't come by the ability he now displays naturally. I think that shows in the history that is often portrayed of him losing election after election before finally finding his way and rising to the position of senator and then Chancellor.

I think that, after a certain number of defeats, he realized he was missing some skills he critically needed, and found someone who already was a master at it to teach him what he needed to know. Once he got the knack, he got better and better ...

 

Fake it until you make it?

 

Hmm. Dunno. But I don't see the Sith teaching the sort of masterful acting Palpy is capable of, and he obviously didn't know how to do that for quite a number of years, despite a desperate need to get ppl to like him.

 

Hi. I gather we are discussing Palpy's manipulation of others. And where he got that from?

He is a master manipulator. He knows how people think and he has a superior understanding of how different personnas react to temptations and forbidden desires. He likes to play with people. Plant seeds in their minds and then every so often, Palpy brings along the Watering Can of Seduction and let's the seed grow.

1. In the case of Anakin, Palpy toys with the boy's sense of Entitlement. Anakin thinks he is the best. He thinks he can get away with stuff, change the rules. Palpy says "Of course you can my boy. You're the greatest!" Anakin says, "Yeah.. I guess I am." Eventually the seed has grown into an out of control power-lust. Anakin used to think he had a right to be the most powerful Jedi. Now he thinks he is the most powerful being in the Galaxy...period.

2. Count Dooku had a deisire for Knowledge and forbidden lore that Palpy used to great effect in seducing him. I imagine he would say, ?Dooku, if you join me, you can study all the areas of Sith Teachings you want. No strings.? Dooku jumps on, believing that the restriction of Jedi teaching is gone forever. Palpy also says ?Hey, we can make the Galaxy what we want.? Dooku goes along, at last the Galaxy can be as he wishes.

3. In the case of Maul, well, Maul is unfortunately a tool. We don?t know of any real seductions with him. I?m sure Palpatine played on his hatred for the Jedi.

4. The Public is the easiest bunch to manipulate. Throw in a few choice phrases and they will love and respect you. I?m quite sure he used his Mind Tricks here. Placing the most powerful of Senators under his whim while also sounding good to the rest.

Palpatine LOVES manipulation. He derives a twisted pleasure from it. His most powerful weapon is not the Lighsaber, not the lightning, not even the Dark Side itself. Palpatine poisons the mind with words alone. In answer, I think this talent is his. Count Dooku has ability in this field too. But Palpatine was able to toy with him and he was none the wiser. At least not at the end.

The relationship with the Jedi is two-sided. On one side, Palpatine HATES the fact that he has to hide his real feelings. On the other side, he enjoys the fact that they have no idea. He can speak to Yoda face to face and there is nothing. No hint of his real intentions.

The Emperor is sadistic and manipulative. But his Dark Powers have so consumed him that the strange pleasures are all the more obvious to the viewer and he relishes in them. He is released from the hiding. He has the power and the wealth. He doesn?t need to shy away from laughing evilly.


My latest project has a sub-plot of Palpatine manipulating his own son. But I focus more on the kid's psychological breakdowns and such.

He doesn't actually have a kid in the official universe. Octavius Palpatine is one of my OC villains.

 

Actually, Palpy does have a son in EU. The name is Triclops -- isn't that atrocious?? Palpy was supposed to have consorted with an alien. (God alone knows what his motivation would have been for that ... don't you just love these proficcers?? )

He has a former mistress running around SAYING she has his child, too, but it is strongly hinted that the mistress is lying about this.

I think certain aspects of manipulation come more easily to Palpy than others. The more a target is like himself, the more Palpy relishes it and the easier it is for him to do. This is behavior Palpy has an instinctive understanding of, after all, plus probably coaching from Plagueis to boot.

But people of pure motive. This, I see Palpy as having had to work hard to master. The instinctive understanding of these people isn't there, much as we have to work hard to understand criminals and psychopaths. And there is the accurate portrayal of emotion Palpatine would have had to become extremely good at. He doesn't feel altruism, concern, love, etc., so it would have been very tough for him to learn to feign these emotions well. And there, I presume, he would have needed a coach. After losing so many elections, he finally had the sense to find himself one and apply himself to whatever she had to teach. (In my Palpy universe, anyway. ).

 

*Grumbles* EU.

I try VERY hard to ignore the post ROTJ stuff. I don't like it much but to each his own. The whole clone stuff is just odd because he seems to have lots and use them very quickly. In other words, he just pops in and out of bodies until he runs out. And his supposed FINAL death is just sad. To me, the Emperor died in the last movie.

I do like the Clone Wars EU and PT stuff overall. The Dooku/Asajj plotline is interesting. The whole Dooku seduction, creation of Grievous, etc....

 

Will24:

HI! Sorry I didn't welcome you to the thread earlier. I hope you are not offended.

I see what you are saying, but I am so crossed up about Palpy's age.

All this stuff with Ian McDiarmid saying he's 120 and stuff, and hiding the way he looks somehow. I just can't buy it.

When ATOC and TPM were being filmed, Palpy was -- by Ian's own admission -- YOUNGER than Ian in TPM, and Ian's own age since. Now, because of this lighting-face scene, he's suddenly anywhere between 80-120, and he's been hiding it all this time??? Especially since there are so many more plausible explanations for the change in his looks.

What do you guys think?

Had an idea for another topic, too: Palpatine and racism.