Palpatine's Involvement at Alderaan

EH Pilot, are you feeling better, you petty little man, now that you've insulted me? Oh, I thought so.

And no, I don't bother to check my spelling because you aren't worth the effort. This is just a forum and you are absolutely nobody to me. It doesn't matter what you say or how many names you call to boost yourself, or so you think, at my expense. I could care less what you think.

Self-gratification, eh? Why, not at all, my incompetent opponent. I was merely humouring myself at the expense of your image, which isn't saying much

Evidently so, comsidering your extreme level of nastiness towards me. I'm not your "opponent". Never was. This is a forum and I am expressing my opinion. I really don't know what your problem is. I might be someone you don't agree with, but that doesn't give you the free license to flame me.

We just don't agree. I don't agree with your take on things. That doesn't make me a "moron".

 

"I'm not your "opponent". Never was."

Language is such a flexible thing. You are my opponent by the very fact that you brought up the argument in the first place, and you truly have been the most amusing one.

"This is a forum and I am expressing my opinion."

Again, it is one thing to express your opinion, but another to try and use that opinion in argument, without any support, and present it as fact.

"I really don't know what your problem is. I might be someone you don't agree with, but that doesn't give you the free license to flame me."

Don't like having me laugh in your face when you make these asinine comments? Prove your point. You can't just stick your head in the sand and ignore canon and use your "opinion" as a shield to protect your flimsy arguments. And if you can't prove your point, don't make one.

"We just don't agree. I don't agree with your take on things."

And so we debated. I offered evidence to prove my point, you made long, marginally coherent statements of how everything you say is right and got all offended when you failed miserably to offer one shred of support for your "opinions".

"That doesn't make me a "moron"."

But making completely ridiculous statements without bothering to offer support for them does.

 

Not that I agree with T_F at all here - Tarkin's idea, Tarkin's sin - but how is the Empire a republic, especially after the irrelevant Senate is dissolved?

 

Suspended, actually, according to the Imperial Sourcebook. The Empire never officially removed it, merely put the Moffs directly in control for "the duration of the emergency".

 

I imagine the Galactic Empire is a Republic in the same way the Roman Empire was.

Although, unlike the Roman "Emperors", Palpatine did explictly declare himself as Imperial Sovereign - but he did say that the Senate would continue to rule the Empire.

Suspended, actually, according to the Imperial Sourcebook. The Empire never officially removed it, merely put the Moffs directly in control for "the duration of the emergency".

Yeah, which is why Senators such as Simon Greyshade and Pooja Naberrie could still call themselves "Senator" post-ANH. The Senate was abolished - it was merely suspended idefinately - Tarkin's comment about "dissolved permanently" not withstanding.

 

"I imagine the Galactic Empire is a Republic in the same way the Roman Empire was."

I'd say that's a nice real-world analogy, though it wasn't until later in the "Roman Empire"'s existence that the Emperor became what we would commonly associate with emperors.

"Yeah, which is why Senators such as Simon Greyshade and Pooja Naberrie could still call themselves "Senator" post-ANH. The Senate was abolished - it was merely suspended idefinately - Tarkin's comment about "dissolved permanently" not withstanding."

I assume you meant "wasn't abolished", correct?

 

I'd say that's a nice real-world analogy, though it wasn't until later in the "Roman Empire"'s existence that the Emperor became what we would commonly associate with emperors.

Yes, if I remember correctly it was around the reign of Diocletian when the "Emperor" became more of a monarch in the "oriental despotism" style, rather than the older Roman civic "first among equals".

(I recall Diocletian would make people kiss his jewelled sandals).

If I recall correctly, it wasn't until Heraclius that they started to explictly use titles such as "King" to refer to the Head of State.

I assume you meant "wasn't abolished", correct?

Whoops! Yes, that's what I meant.

I imagine most Senators returned to their homeworld (and were probably still getting paid, since they still held the position.). Note Pooja hanging around Naboo in Galaxies, Greyshade being back at the Wheel, etc, etc.

 

"Yes, if I remember correctly it was around the reign of Diocletian when the "Emperor" became more of a monarch in the "oriental despotism" style, rather than the older Roman civic "first among equals"."

Yeah, that's about when

"Whoops! Yes, that's what I meant."

Thought so

"I imagine most Senators returned to their homeworld (and were probably still getting paid, since they still held the position.). Note Pooja hanging around Naboo in Galaxies, Greyshade being back at the Wheel, etc, etc."

I'd imagine so. Whether or not the Senate was ever going to realistically return, the Empire would have to keep them around. It's interesting though that the Senate was what really kept the Empire running, based on Tagge's comments, even if its powers had diminished with Palpatine.

 

The Empire is definitely not a republic; it is technically an elective constitutional monarchy. Palpatine's speech in ROTS (especially the book) makes this clear. Of course, the reality is somewhat different...

Although I have to wonder just how much things might have been different if Palpatine had never suspended the Senate. Clearly, the officers and moffs (at least as of ANH) still feared it and respected its authority. If it had still existed to electe Sate Pestage as emperor (as was its constitutional duty) after Endor, so he could officially claim the full title (as opposed to just 'Acting Emperor') we wouldn't be having all these problems...

 

Also remember that Palpatine could "influence" the Imperial Navy and Army from vast distances--giving them more coordination and battle prowess (i.e. TTT)

Maybe Palpatine planted the Alderaan suggestion in Tarkin's mind (or "nudged along" Tarkin's own idea) to destroy the planet of Palp's major political thorn. Vader (in typical ROTJ fashion) was ordered by Palps to let things develop "...as I have forseen." Hence, Vader stands by and lets Tarkin do his thing.

It also explains why Vader took so few TIE's into the fight against Yavin. He wasn't protecting Tarkin & the Death Star...Vader left Tarkin to fend for himself. Vader was just "duck hunting" with his squadron for sport & entertainment.

 

Did any official source ever depicit Palpatine's reaction to the destruction of Alderaan?

 

"The Empire is definitely not a republic; it is technically an elective constitutional monarchy. Palpatine's speech in ROTS (especially the book) makes this clear. Of course, the reality is somewhat different..."

The people elect representatives to run the nation. It's a republic.

 

Elective monarchies are not republics. They are similar, but they are not the same.

In the Empire's case, the fact that (as far as we know) the head of state rules for life and cannot be removed from office once elected, and is styled as a monarch, is enough to separate it from a republic.

 

The Empire is definitely not a republic; it is technically an elective constitutional monarchy. Palpatine's speech in ROTS (especially the book) makes this clear. Of course, the reality is somewhat different...

Thanks, I've Got Twop Legs. Good post.

Palpatine is a dictator, and always has been. The Senate is a complete joke. A real Republic has representatives that do the will of their constituents.
Palpatine has all the Senate bought and paid for before he ever got "elected" Chancellor.

"What if I told you most of the SENATE was under the control of a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious?"

(Not influence mind you. CONTROL. Control means he's the boss.)

These quotes are for EH Pilot, mainly. It proves that Moffs do answer to their Emperor, who invented the station in life called "Moff" (and Also "Grand Admiral", for that matter). It's all Palp's doing.


Palpatine:

"I will make it LEGAL."
(Just a mere Senator from a mid rim world? Strange..)

"The Chancellor should never have brought Jedi into this. Kill them immediately."
(Again, just a Senator, but of course, he's the PHANTOM MENACE, he is the one already running the galaxy.)

"Darth Maul will force the Queen to sign the treaty."

"They will be no match for you." (To Maul)

"I will create a grand army."

"Execute Order 66."
(Who follows this order? Every trooper from the foot soldier to the generals, and every officer in between. Because who do they serve? The Senate? No. And what does it matter? HE IS the Senate! The Jedi? No, again. They serve Palpatine.)

"Go to the Jedi Temple and kill everyone. Show no mercy. Leave no creature behind."

"I AM the Senate!"

"POWER!! UNLIMITED POWERRRRR!"

"No no no no. It's YOU who are wrong!"
(His reign wasn't at an end.)

"I will be one ruler for life."
(Paraphrasing, but that ruler of the galaxy surely isn't Tarkin.)

"Get a medical capsule immediately." (Who? A Clone Trooper, who serve Palpatine. Takes Anakin to the Emperor Palpatine Medical Center. Didn't waste time did he?)

"Everything that has transpired has done so, according to MY design."

"Your work here is finished my friend, go out unto the command ship and await MY orders."

"Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station. Fire at will Commander."
(What a MOFF taking a dierct order fromt he Emperor? This is Moff Jerjerrod, of course, who answers Palpatine: Yes, MY LORD. And he is the one that calls the order for the DSII to fire, in the control room. MOFF Jerjerrod.)

Those are just a few. Here's some more from other characters.

"Aren't we going to attack?"
"No, the Emperor has something special planned for them."

The Emperor. I take this to mean the head of the entire Imperial Navy, of which the Executor is the command ship, is actually taking direct orders from Emperor Palpatine.

Your "proof" that Tarkin is above the chain of command because of a three sentence conversation with Officer Cass, the bearer of bad news frrom Dantooine, is weak, compared to the direct verbiage from the maestro himself. Emperor Palpatine...

I'm sure I could find a lot of other stuff, but it's not worth my time. You either agree or you don't. Most Zahn addled people won't.
This place is supposed to be fun. It's not worth it to go any further. Who needs it? My time is limited. Why make myself unhappy on a movie forum?
I'm a purist. The above tells me that Palpatine is the Supreme Commander of the military, he controls the Senate, and he has all Moffs answer to him. Everything that transpires does so according to his design.
He's always right about things, due to his extraordinary powers, until Luke. Mainly, he misjudged Vader's loyalty to the boy. He accomplished everything else he ever wanted. One foolish and deadly mistake doesn't make him weak or wrong for the previous 100 years...


There, IGTL, edit for clarity, for you.

 

I'm going to point out what I said:

The Empire is definitely not a republic; it is technically an elective constitutional monarchy. Palpatine's speech in ROTS (especially the book) makes this clear.Of course, the reality is somewhat different...

I assure you, even without your longwinded blow-b-blow recant of movie dialogue, I am well aware of what Palaptine is.

 

I wasn't questioning what you said. I was agreeing with you. The reality was completely different, not slightly different.

Good post. The Republic isn't even a republic by the time of TPM. It's done for.

Well, the same could be said of America. It is really for the people, by the people? Please.

Only if the "people" are billionaires, and they own a corporation. America is facist. Facism is when big business dicatates policy/law.

Look to pharmas with the 26,000 lobbyists, and see how medicine is run in this country, for example.

Or the food industry, and how Oprah was railroaded for the saying, 'I won't eat anymore beef'. You'd think she killed a kid or something. A trial? For that? What was she supposed to have been guilty of? Free speech?

It's no coincidence that GL modelled the Republic after this country. What's amazing is he did it in the early seventies. He's right that all republics eventually turn into big brother and then dictatorships. It's the people that are largely to blame, because they become accustomed to socialism and then demand to be taken care of, and then give up their rights.

Back to Palptine. If the Republic had been strong, if people believed in it, then he would have no place to gain a foothold. Apathy is the biggest enemy of freedom. Freedom means responsibility, and no one wants to take it. So societies are always susceptable to those such as Palpatine, because they wnat to be cared for, not think for themselves.

 

It's no coincidence that GL modelled the Republic after this country. What's amazing is he did it in the early seventies. He's right that all republics eventually turn into big brother and then dictatorships. It's the people that are largely to blame, because they become accustomed to socialism and then demand to be taken care of, and then give up their rights.

Back to Palptine. If the Republic had been strong, if people believed in it, then he would have no place to gain a foothold. Apathy is the biggest enemy of freedom. Freedom means responsibility, and no one wants to take it. So societies are always susceptable to those such as Palpatine, because they wnat to be cared for, not think for themselves.

I don´t think the people had anything to do with Palpatine´s rise to power and him staying in power, nor could they have stopped it. It was the political, economic and military elite that he used to rise to power and keep it. The real power was far removed from ordinary citizens in the Republic. Each senator represented billions of citizens. The elite had direct routes to the places of power. The ordinary citizens were powerless. What kind of chance did they have to influence politics? You would have needed voters on a million worlds to vote the same kind of candidates to bring forth change. When the political, economic and military elite gave it´s support to Palpatine, the Old Republic was finished. It´s not that the citizens didn´t believe in it - the elite didn´t. They of all people knew how stagnated the Old Republic had become. And Palpatine used that for his own gain.

 

You're right, of course. The masses were helpless.

I feel that the golden age of the Republic was beautiful. The people were heard, the politicians were noble, the Jedi were dedicated to serving the force.

This ironically brings us full circle to Alderaan. One of the few planets that treated it's citizens with respect and equality. Maybe that was another reason Palpatine wanted to get rid of the whole planet. Leaders of the Rebel Alliance are not enough of a reason to blow up a valuable planet. It had valuable resources.
The whole populace were vocal in their criticism of the Empire, and esp Palptine. And Leia openly and angrily renounced his policies on the Senate floor. They were, on the whole, trouble and damaging to the Empire's "image".
From music to art to politics, Alderaanians encouraged free thinkers and free speech. They didn't have propaganda. They wanted the truth to be told. What better way to silence them all at once, and blame the Rebellion for it?

 

Ive_Got_Two_Legs: Except the Emperor didn't really run the Empire, the Senate did. Naboo is the prime SW example of elective monarchies, though, not the Empire.

It's a blurry line, and I could see it going either way.

One of the problems I'm having is just what kind of emperor Palpatine was. Emperors aren't neccesarily monarchs, nor is dictatorship contradictory to republican government.

Oh, one more thing. Do we agree that the Empire's system is, ideally, better than the Old Republic's?

 

Tiershon Fett wrote:

Leaders of the Rebel Alliance are not enough of a reason to blow up a valuable planet. It had valuable resources... From music to art to politics, Alderaanians encouraged free thinkers and free speech. They didn't have propaganda. They wanted the truth to be told. What better way to silence them all at once, and blame the Rebellion for it?

True. The destruction of Alderaan can be considered as much a political statement as it was a punishment for rebellion and a show of force. The whole Alderaanian way of life was destroyed.

EH_Pilot wrote:

Oh, one more thing. Do we agree that the Empire's system is, ideally, better than the Old Republic's?

It depends what you mean by better. In some cases the Empire is more efficient and gets things done which took ages during the Old Republic. Ideally, leaving reality aside, the Old Republic as an idea was better. The idea of Old Republic and it´s reality were two different things. The Empire as such had a lofty idea of itself too, of course. What comes to it´s failings, it had some problematic features that it inherited from the Old Republic and some new problems arose from the ways the Empire tried to solve those problems. And the Empire was still in it´s infancy as it died. All new political systems and governments tend to have an energetic youth during which they at least seem to work well - after all, they are born as the result of the failures of the preceding governments and as such usually partly answers to those failures. Only through time the Empire´s true ability to survive and surmount the problems it had would have been revealed. But I think it´s true weakness was that it was the creation of a one man, ruthless but succesful, and like Alexander the Great´s Empire, it too couldn´t survive his death. There was no able heir.

 

The thing about this argument is that it can go both ways very easily, and we don't have exact evidence going either of those ways. On one hand the Emperor is the single most powerful man in the galaxy. His word goes, and he should probably be consulted on the destruction of major planets. But then there's Tarkin, the Empire's golden boy. He pretty much owns the Outer Rim and treats that as his own demi-Empire. The man is powerfull. Ars Dangor and others may have been the ones to appoint him, but Tarkin was a clever and ruthless individual. He had the guts and authority to boss around Lord Vader. (Heck the reason Lord Vader was there was to make sure Tarkin didn't decide to pay Coruscant a little visit with the Death Star.) Tarkin also had a history of massacres(sp?). Remember how he landed his VSD on a crowd of protestors? Something tells me that this is a guy how would blow Alderaan to pieces as a snap judgement just to make an interrogation go faster. And let's also keep in mind with the Empire having complete control of the media, they could just blame it all on the rebels (which they did.) But all that keeps coming back to the core of the argument: The Emperor is all-powerful, but Tarkin had a great deal of arrogance and bravado (Controlling a Death Star may have boosted those qualities considerably). So even with all the evidence on both sides, I'd say the issue is pretty inconclusive.

 

Rouge77: I see your point, though the Republic had not been doing well for many, many years. In the KOTOR-era, the Republic effectively losses three wars in a row and would have fallen if not for the excessive aid of the Jedi. Twice in that era it's labelled something to the effect of a "stagnant beast that's been dying for centuries". It's even forced to be restructured and reformed after the war that ended with Ruusan.

It's also important to note the Empire didn't start disintigrating until Pestage left and Isard took over. Pestage was actually running the day-to-day operations of the Empire since Yavin, and the Moffs administrating the systems, and Vader acting as Supreme Commander. If not for Palpatine's post-Endor plans, leadership would have been transfered relatively smoothly.

Pershing: It would definately help to see Palpatine's reaction, but the ANH radio drama has Vader suggesting Tarkin consult the Emperor before destroying Alderaan, which Tarkin dismisses outright.