Palpatine's Involvement at Alderaan

I see your point, though the Republic had not been doing well for many, many years. In the KOTOR-era, the Republic effectively losses three wars in a row and would have fallen if not for the excessive aid of the Jedi. Twice in that era it's labelled something to the effect of a "stagnant beast that's been dying for centuries". It's even forced to be restructured and reformed after the war that ended with Ruusan.

Yes, the Old Republic´s greatest achievement was it´s continued existence. Always in trouble, but always surviving. Of course, we only get to see the times of crises. Good, peaceful eras are boring. I think it was partly the idea of the Old Republic - not the reality - that kept it alive the whole time and why it has always been recreated in one form or another. It doesn´t matter if there never was a Golden Age of prosperity under the Old Republic - what matters is that people believe that there was. It´s like the Roman Empire, which has been a model for pretty much all the western countries that came after it.

It's also important to note the Empire didn't start disintigrating until Pestage left and Isard took over. Pestage was actually running the day-to-day operations of the Empire since Yavin, and the Moffs administrating the systems, and Vader acting as Supreme Commander. If not for Palpatine's post-Endor plans, leadership would have been transfered relatively smoothly.

The weakness of Pestage was that he was a loyal servant of Palpatine and that the rest of the Empire´s elite didn´t look up at him, believing him to be their superior. If Palpatine would have died a true death at Endor and if Pestage would have been a more formidable figure in public, he might have achieved of making himself a new Emperor and at least prolonging the fight against the Rebel Alliance for a long time. But Palpatine survived and Pestage went for his master leaving his clone to rule in Coruscant, where the elite was already conspiring against him. And Pestage wasn´t a public figure, even if he acted as kind of prime minister. He was a burocrat. A good at handling state affairs, but not a man who rest of the elite would be ready to see as Emperor. He wasn´t respected enough, he wasn´t feared enough. For him to rule the Empire, he would have needed a puppet ruler on the throne.

There was same problem with many of the warlords: They simply didn´t look like Emperor material. Take Zsinj. He was a fat, comical looking little man. Feared by his men, but still a fat, comical little man. He didn´t look like an Emperor. Palpatine did.

 

EH: I see your point and that's why I'm more in favor of Palpy not being consulted. It's just that if Tarkin could have enough authority to believe that he could escape the political firestorm of destroying Alderaan, the command and control systems of the Empire must've been pure chaos. Alderaan was a well-known and respected planet. I don't doubt Tarkin had the will to destroy Alderaan (he proved that) but I wonder what led him to believe that he wouldn't be reprimanded(sp?) for such a decision.

 

Rouge77: The Republic did have its highs and lows, but it wouldn't have survived without the Jedi propping it up. But it's hard to say, really, given how little is known of that era, just how well the Republic did. From what we've seen, it's barely able to function.

As for Pestage, he was considered by most the next best thing to Palpatine, and if Palpatine hadn't decided to destroy the Empire, it would have endured far better than it did up until Thrawn's return. It wasn't until Isard took over that the Empire fell to pieces. The bulk of the Core, which had always supported Palpatine, was still loyal to the Empire under Pestage, as were many parts of the Imperial Navy not under the few Grand Admirals that went rouge right away.

Pershing: Well, keep in mind he believed that with the Death Star, nothing would stand up to the Empire, or him. Of course, that plan kinda blew up in his face. Plus, with Imperial control of the media, it wouldn't be too hard to shield Tarkin's reputation.

 

I was thinking that Tarkins ego was a bit too big which made him believe that he had the authority to blow up Alderaan or that he wanted to impress the Emperor by showing his shrewdness but i think the latter one would definitely be a mistake. I cant see Palps wanting to be impressed so i go with ego.

 

I was thinking that Tarkins ego was a bit too big which made him believe that he had the authority to blow up Alderaan or that he wanted to impress the Emperor by showing his shrewdness but i think the latter one would definitely be a mistake. I cant see Palps wanting to be impressed so i go with ego.

Tarkin could have been wanting to impress the Emperor by blowing up Alderaan. After all, now was his chance to show that the Tarkin doctrine worked in real life.

And then there is the fact that people have a habit of wanting to use terrible weapons for the sole reason that they exist. The Death Star project had become Tarkin´s own and was basically his whole life, so after all those decades he probably wanted to use it.

 

That could be true.

 

Why is there still an argument about this after three pages? G-canon of A New Hope - the first Star Wars g-canon source ever made! - says that the destruction of Alderaan was Tarkin's initiative. It was Tarkin's decision to destroy Alderaan, and Emperor Palpatine had no say in the matter at all.

What this discussion should be more about is distribution of power within the Imperial government. Was it legal for Tarkin to destroy Alderaan without orders from the Emperor? Was it necessary that he contact the Emperor and not just a suggestion of prudency from Vader that he do so? Certainly, it would have been quite legal for the Emperor to kill whoever he chose to for whatever reason at all - see Bevel Lemelisk for details. But was Tarkin breaking the Emperor's established laws?

 

Was it legal for Tarkin to destroy Alderaan without orders from the Emperor?

Purely a guess on my behalf, but I doubt it was legal. Not that it really mattered. The only thing that mattered was the Emperor´s reaction to it. But one possibility to wage it´s legality would be comparing the action he took to an orbital bombardment. How high in the chain of command one has to be to be able to order it without consulting with superiors? As a Grand Moff Tarkin could probably order it without consulting with the Emperor, but only in a sector under his control - I think - and not against any planet outside his jurisdiction.

But was Tarkin breaking the Emperor's established laws?

Possibly. But they don´t really matter. If what Tarkin did pleased the Emperor, there wouldn´t have been no consequences for him and if it displeased the Emperor and Tarkin would have survived Yavin, he would have been killed whether it would have been against the laws or not. In the Empire laws were for lesser people.

 

The ANH novel goes further - and claims Tarkin was contemplating turning the Death Star on Coruscant and usurping the throne from Palpatine.

Clearly he wasn't be "controlled" by Palpatine, mentally or otherwise.

 

I wouldn't bother really, GAJ. Most people who continually use the word "fascist" don't even know what it means. I just roll my eyes, usually, and ignore it.

Besides....the really kewl use the term "Crypto-Fascist".




In the Empire's case, the fact that (as far as we know) the head of state rules for life and cannot be removed from office once elected, and is styled as a monarch, is enough to separate it from a republic.

Are we sure? Ignoring for the moment that Palpatine is an immensely powerful Dark Lord of the Sith who rules the galaxy with an iron fist...

...it may be that he "technically" rules the galaxy at the behest of the Senate. (ala Roman Emperors)

Of course, the reality is far different.

 

Furthermore, I don't know what 'facism' means--since it's more certainly not a word. If you're referring to fascism, then you're entirely wrong. It has nothing to do with businesses at all-fascism has to do with authority and the state. By definition, the United States cannot be fascist. The entire political culture doesn't fit.

`Fascism´ has much to do with businesses. Fascist regimes in Europe - like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Spain and Portugal - ruled with the support of the business elite. The government and the big companies controlled the economy - price of products, wages, that sort of thing - together. They had a symbiotic relationship. And of course, fascism in the ordinary use of the word means simply far-right.

 

Well, the difference between Palpatine and the Roman emperors (as others have already pointed out) was that Palaptine specifically gave himself a title of royalty, whereas the Roman emperors continued to rule using established titles and practices of the Republic. Although I think it's safe to say that, despite the titles, Naboo was a republic - the king/queen was elected, served for a specific (and limited) time, and could be removed from office.

And also, I mean, come on...I think we cna assume that Palaptine would have made it impossible for the Senate to pull him from power. They might have had authority (at least nominally) over other aspects of Imperial policy, but I don't see the ROTS Palpatine letting them have even a possibility to remove him from office.

I had another point to make here, but I seem to have forgotten it.

 

Kudzu: The destruction of Alderaan may or may not have been legal depending on that status of Alderaan's allegiance to the Empire. If it was in fact plotting to overthrow the Empire, then I suppose the planet could be branded as treasonous, in rebellion, or openly at war with the Empire, which would make the planet a valid target.

Jello:

 

GAJ, I seem to recall hearing about the concept of a "crowned republic", which seems to be the point you aren making.

I should note generally that Australia is referred to as a constitutional monarchy, though, but I'm not sure how accurate this actually is, since the official name is the "Commonwealth of Australia".

(Which, strangely enough, Queen Victoria hated the name because she thought it smacked of republicanism.)

The main question of course is: Palpatine declared himself Emperor - but at his death, was the Imperial dignity meant to continue in his line or not?

Glove of Darth Vader (Triclops/Trioculus) and the Dark Empire Sourcebook (Ederlathh Pallopides) seem to say yes, but other sources seem to point towards no.

 

I'm in the presence of fellow history aficionados but I know next to nothing about the politics of the French Republic.

 

Jello:

Okay, Jello, I'm almost positive that thumbs down doesn't mean "kill the gladiator"

 

Indeed it was. But it gave some substance to an otherwise meaningless post

 

*looks around frantically*

Uh...

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!