Personality characteristics in lightsaber styles

I have noticed that out of all the swordsmen in STAR WARS, Obi-Wan (of the Old Republic era) seemed more incline to indulge in unnecessary twirling than any of the others - except some of the extra Jedi fighters in the Geneosis arena. Even Anakin, much to my surprise - twirls less than Obi-Wan.

I also recall Obi-Wan and Anakin's arrival on Grivious' ship. Whereas Obi-Wan uses the Force to leap out of his starfighter in a slightly overdramatic manner, Anakin merely climbs out of his fighter in a matter-of-fact way. Shouldn't it be reverse? Or is this a hint of Obi-Wan's future defeat against Dooku . . . and Anakin's victory?


Though he always said that one must focus on the now and not the after, a bit of foresight never hurt anyone..(

Qui-Gon also believed in being mindful of the future . . . but not at the expense of the here and now.

This is what was really said in TPM:

OBI-WAN: I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON: I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN: It's not about the mission, Master, it's something...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON: Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN: Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON: .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.

Even Qui-Gon has shown an awareness of the future at times:

QUI-GON: The situation here is not what it seems. There is something else behind all this, Your Highness. There is no logic in the Federation's move here. My feelings tell me they will destroy you.

 

I've always thought of that as a hint as how they're halves of a whole, personally. Sometimes Obi-Wan does something that you'd expect Anakin to do, and sometimes Anakin does things you'd expect Obi-Wan to do.

Besides, it's not like Obi-Wan was being incautious against Dooku. He got nailed by the Force, which can obviously happen to anyone, as we saw repeated times in ROTS.

 

I'll bring this up, as it hasn't been posted in in a few months...

 

Does anyone think that we should bring up dueling techniques and styles from the novels and comics?

 

I think this thread is strictly for the movies. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the whole Obi wan twirling thing, I think that is a reflection of a previously unmentioned charactistic in obi wan's personality, arrogance. In TPM and AOTC Obi wan definetely shows a healthy(or not so healthy) side of arrogance to his personality. He always knows best, or at least he thinks he does. But I don't think he does that twirling manuever at all in ROTS. A sign of character development if ever there was one.

 

Yeah, he doesn't twirl in ROTS.


Something I never really noticed before occured to me the other day: Hayden in ROTS holds his sabre the exact way Prowse does when he confronts Obi-Wan in ANH.

 

Just thought I would put my 2 cents in...

I would definately agree that not having a guard is a draw-back...

However, if you're training exclusively with such a weapon, it's not too hard adjust your guard and defensive movements to accomodate for this lack. (ie. blade tip downward when blocking, etc.) In my experience, sliding the blade down to cut your opponents hand/wrist is actually not very easy to do, unless you have someone who prefers to "lock-up" blades, which, with live blades, is a bad idea. Usually a cut/strike is effectively parried by a block of some sort followed instantly by a movement to allow for advantage.

Also, I thought it pertinent to mention that the Jedi used the Force during lightsaber combat to guide their movements, so the missing guard would probably mean very little to them and much more to folks like you and me.

Hwarang Knight

 

Plus, a lightsabre blade can cut through just about any known material, so a guard is prolly fairly pointless.

Dookue & Vader's sabres had guards, but those look more designed to keep *your* fingers from sliding onto *your* blade, rather than blocking the other fellow.

 

WHOOPS! Wrong button! HeHe...

I agree about the guards being pointless.

HwarangKnight

 

well, in an attempt to liven on this thread..

My observations from the prequel duels on Force-oriented combat..

Now that all three prequels are out, we have what GL says is the Jedi in their prime, at least combat-wise. And clearly, there's a misconception some people had that need fixing.

Note-this only covers Jedi vs. Sith fights, as any mortal is grossly outclassed by the major Jedi we see in the prequels in a one-on-one fight.

This misconception is that Force attacks trumps all. After TESB, with Vader's brutal Force attacks through telekinesis on Luke, many assumed that Jedi eventually reached a point where they didn't need a lightsabre to combat a foe directly and triumph. As we can see in the prequels, this conception is inaccurate.

A. Darth Maul's Force Push against Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode I.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent enraged, used to disrupt flow of attack.

Result: Successful, but did not win battle for employer.

B. Count Dooku's Force Lighting against Anakin Skywalker, Episode II.

Conditions: Opponent enraged, medium range, used to seperate Padawan from his Master.

Result: Successful, resulted in victory for Dooku against two opponents.

C. Count Dooku's Force Lightning against Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode II.

Conditions: Opponent calm, long range, used in attempt to end duel quickly.

Result: Unsuccessful, forced Dooku to engage Obi-Wan with sabre.

D. Count Dooku's Telekinesis and Force Lightning against Yoda, Episode II.

Result: Unsuccessful, left Dooku but with no choice but to go to swords with a more skillful opponent.

D2. Count Dooku's use of telekinesis as distraction against Yoda, Episode II.

Successful. Forced Yoda to disengage to save Obi-Wan and Anakin.

E. Count Dooku's Force Push against Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, used to separate two opponents and also to move out of a near-death scenario.

Result: Successful. Allowed Dooku to withdraw and focus on Anakin.

F. Count Dooku's Force Choke/Throw against Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent distracted, used to separate two opponents, also attempt to kill.

Result: Somewhat successful, but no long-term advantage for Dooku.

G. Darth Sidious' first use of Force Lightning against Mace Windu, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent calm, used in baiting attempt.

Result: Successful. Pumped Windu into a killing rage.

H. Darth Sidious' Second use of Force Lightning against Mace Windu, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent badly injured, used to kill.

Result: Successful. Opponent defeated.

I. Darth Sidious' first use of Force Lightning against Yoda, Episode III.

Conditions: Long range, opponent off his guard, used to sap strength from opponent.

Result: Successful, but resulted in no long-term advantage for Sidious.

J. Obi-Wan's Force Push against Darth Vader, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent focused, attempt to buy space for defense and possibly as setup for a killing blow.

Result: Unsuccessful. Results in draw.

K. Yoda's Force Push against Darth Sidious.

Conditions: Long range, opponent cackling, used to cause physical injury and possibly draw off confidence.

Results: Somewhat successful; Sidious' confidence in victory over Yoda was clearly damaged.

L. Darth Sidious' use of telekinesis with the Senate Pods against Yoda, Episode III.

Conditions: Long range, opponent focused, used to buy time, wear opponent down, and hopefully kill.

Result: Somewhat successful. Bought time for Darth Sidious to manuever, and presumably wore Yoda down somewhat.

M. Darth Sidious' second use of Force Lightning against Yoda, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent unarmed, used to kill.

Result: Somewhat successful. Resulted in tactical draw, and opponent escaped largely unharmed, and so did Sidious.

Now, as we can see, Force attacks aren't what they're cracked up to be. Out of 13 Force attacks in 6 duels, only 1 resulted

 

I believe the semi official explanation is that his fighting style requires a lot of room to keep distance between him and his opponent, which he could not accomplish in the reactor shaft, but I've managed to connect that with his personal philosophy. In my opinion, his need of room and movement tie in with his philosophy of the mobile "living force", which is always ebbing and flowing, hence mobile. Instead of listening to the Unifying Force, the constant, stone still vibration that is much larger than an individual moment. In the end, his adherence to the Living Force probably saved the entire galaxy, but as for this lightsaber duel, this acrobatic style and his lack of room to utilize it cost him his mortal life.

Luke was peed off. That's pretty much all in that instance. Luke was tapping into his anger. This shot his power up to about what unsuited Vader could have once achieved.

He relies too much on intimidation and aggressibe swipes. Obi Wan is able to anticipate one such swipe and cut his saber in two. This is the first readily apparant hole in his style.

 

Missed one.


Obi-Wan's Force Push against General Grievous, Episode III.

Conditions: Point-blank range, opponent overconfident, used to damage/distance self from opponent.

Result: Successful, opponent forced into a retreat.

 

Oops.

Oh well, that's why there's two of us.

 

Plus, my lil disclaimer:

Note-this only covers Jedi vs. Sith fights, as any mortal is grossly outclassed by the major Jedi we see in the prequels in a one-on-one fight.

 

I wonder where Ophelia went...

 

Someone mentioned that Obi-Wan doesn't twirl his lightsabre in ROTS: Yoda and Obi-Wan twirl lightsabres in ROTS as they are fighting their way into the Temple. Qui-Gon twirls in TPM. Dooku twirls in AOTC. One of the docs on the ROTS DVDs show the scenes of all four twirling, and it talks about the line of training: Yoda/Dooku/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan.

 

I think Nick was referring to a pun. 'Anakins vulnerable on a slope' as if his slope on the darkside is what makes him more vulnerable in the duel between Obi wan and him.He's still sliding deeper and deeper and becomming overwhelmed which gives him a weakness.Sorry, I know this is from a long time ago and I hate to be one of those posters who reply to a topic before reading the other 200 pages of discussion but I read it randomly and just got the connection.

 

Yeah, I'd agree. Obviously, it's not a physical slope Nick is talking about-he fights Dooku going up friggin stairs just fine earlier in the film, and also fights Assaj Ventress up a slope on Yavin 4 in the (shudder Gawd-awfulness) Clone Wars cartoon.

 

That seems like a fairly lame thing for Gilliard to say, though. I mean, wouldn't anyone be weak when they're sliding down an emotional/philosophical slope?

I never really thought about it after the movie, but we never did see a physical example of what Gilliard was talking about in that quote, did we? There was never a scene where Anakin was fighting up or down a slope and suddenly started losing, or even had to jump away. It just didn't happen.

EDIT: Oh, and thread resurrection FTW.

 

Yes, but it's not just anyone fighting Obi-Wan. It's Anakin.

 

He was sliding down to the dark side, chokin' hotties and slicing kiddies.

 

I understand that. And I'll pretend I didn't hear your heretical twisting of my words, DarthBoba. For shame

What I'm trying to say is, if that's what the "weak on a slope" thing referred to, then it's not at all unique to Anakin. It's not a particular deficiency in his fighting style, because anyone would be affected similarly when their thoughts are that confused. So I was attempting to make certain whether or not there had been a moment where he is physically shown to be weak on a slope, and I just missed it or something.

 

The only moment where anakin is "weak on a slope" is when he's trying to kill Obi wan in the duel. In that case, he was stuck. he couldn't just step forward because the shore of the lava river would have collapsed under his weight and let him burn. And he shouldn't have just jumped and attacked because of obi wan. Now if he'd thought things through he would have jumped clean over obi wan, out of melee range ,thus putting kenobi between a river of lava and a powerful opponent.

 

I was just wondering, is anyone aware of what the weakness of Dooku's fighting style was? I really couldn't say from watching any of the duels he was in.