Poor writing? Anakin telling Padme about the Tusken massacre.

Exactly. So odd that people take Cliegg Lars so literally in his statement.

What the fact that 30 men went out to save a womam who was kidnapped and killed by the Tuskens.

1)there are a lot sick people on these boards who don't know right from wrong.

Oh we know right form wrong. But we are not going to let the Tusknes off the hook for what they have done to. They have killed people kidnapped women and so on. They are not nice people.

I hear it's a part of there life. So what it's ok for them to kidnap and kill a women because it's part of who they are? ?

That just goes way over my head. How is that ok?

 

IMHO, it was wrong of Anakin to slaughter the village.

IMHO, it was ridiculous for Padme to gloss over his action and telling him it's human nature to be angry. I've been angry, I've been angry about very personal things and very traumatic things. I haven't killed a village. We all experience anger, but what defines us is what we do with that anger. What Anakin did *wasn't* human - it was bestial, base, and irrational.

And the only consequences he suffers are those of his conscience, which, despite powerful writing, conveys to me, more anger than guilt, more malice than contrition, and no appreciation of wrong-doing. Padme didn't help.

Don't get me wrong - I think that scene is very powerful, and the writing, combined with the musical cues and Hayden's acting, makes it one of my favorite scenes. But I don't think *anyone* comes out of it looking good.

 

Quixotic sums it up perfectly. And Padme by condoning what Anakin did and not doing something to help him (such as reporting him to the *Council*, anyone care to respond to THAT point which I raised?) is contributing to his fall.

"Understand they kidnap women and kill them. They attack(sp) people for no reason. 30 men went out to save Shmi and only 4 came back."

Did the female Tuskens kill the search party? Did the female Tuskens and their children torture and kill Anakin's mother?

"This is not a nice race."

As Rebelscumb said, you are taking Clieg's statement that they're "mindless monsters" literally. Lucas raises an excellent point with Clieg's statement and Anakin's actions. Do the monstrous actions of some make it OK to mark an entire group? Does the fact that Clieg said they're monsters make it OK that he not only killed the men, he killed the women and children too?

When Anakin says "They're animals! And I hate them!" Lucas is telling the audience that Anakin is *wrong* he has just tasted the dark side! Hate and fear and *killing.*

I don't deny in the *general* fictional movie sense the Tuskens ARE monsters in most ways but this in no way means we know it would be impossible for a Tusken to be raised into a better individual and it in no way excuses the overall slaughter.

How do we know a Tusken raised by caring people from birth wouldn't turn into a good individual?

And again, what would Yoda and the Council say if they found out about the massacre? Hmmmmm.

 

Did the female Tuskens kill the search party? Did the female Tuskens and their children torture and kill Anakin's mother?

The children aside. The females knew what was going on and did nothing. They did nothing to save Shmi or stop what happened to her.

This was a good woman. A good woman who dead. I like her character. So when I saw that scene my heart broke. She never really even got to say goodbye to Anakin. It is heard for me to feel anything for the Tuskens because all I have read in the books and seen in the movies have been or them hurting people.

I'm taking them as people in the Star Wars galaxy not people of earth.

 

The scene broke my heart too, I love Shmi, it was so sad to see her go with such a quick reunion.

But don't you see the message Lucas is trying to convey to us all with this scene? No matter how bad some *individuals* murderously behave as in this case, does that make it alright to enact broad, sweeping revenge upon an entire culture? I personally find it disturbing that you think it's alright that Anakin killed the women and the children.

I'm not excusing the women standing by but OTOH do you think the Tusken baby we see in the scene could have rescued her? Was it OK for him to kill the infants riding on the female Tuskens' backs?

I went from deriding Lucas for the way he did these scenes, now I fully realize (not that I didn't before, the genocide message was always obvious to me, i was just caught up in criticizing the writing and execution) what a great message it is for young people as a warning on how we view/treat others.

 

No matter how bad some *individuals* murderously behave as in this case, does that make it alright to enact broad, sweeping revenge upon an entire culture?

You mean the whole race is dead? ?

It was one villege(sp) There are still many many more Tuskens on Tatoonie. And again I'm going by all the SW movies that have had Tuskens and what I read in the books. It's hard for me to fell sorry for them. Because all the history I read about the Tuskens in the SW galaxy has been bad things.

 

"You mean the whole race is dead?"

The Serbs didn't wipe out all of their Croat/Muslim population but they still killed entire villages of them, does that make it any better?

I realize that you see the Tuskens as monsters based on everything they have done. I'm in no way trying to sugarcoat them or make them appealing but you are *missing Lucas's point* that the villiage massacre is wrong and we can't judge an entire group of people.

Lucas used the Tusken slaughter as a *warning* to young people about revenge/genocide. Yes the Tuskens look and act like monsters but Lucas instead of using a cut and dried group of people, uses these unlikable creatures to warn kids about how we view people on the *outside* instead of the inside. Anakin sees that his mother is killed, the males killed her so why not kill the women and children too he thinks? Can't be too careful! Using Tuskens gives the lesson more depth and shows kids the danger of how *tempting* it can be to use violence!

If Lucas is telling us that by killing the Tuskens, Anakin is displaying severe signs and *traits* of the Dark Side (which you seem to agree with) then how is he justified by killing all of them???

Would it be OK if he had rescued his mother early on, she lived and *then* he went on to wipe out the whole village? Think about it that way.

 

ani, at what point would Anakin have killed enough children to be in the wrong?

The whole point of the scene is that he lost control and did what he shouldn't have. Jeez, Qui-Gon rose from the friggin' dead to try and head him off. This is not rocket science, guys.

 

"Qui-Gon rose from the friggin' dead to try and head him off. This is not rocket science, guys"

Well put! Forgot to point Qui Gon out.

 

I was wondering exactly what did Yoda mean when he said that Anakin was in pain? Surely what Anakin did was wrong, yet the great Master who senses death, also feels for Anakin's anguish as well.

Maybe Padme is one of those characters who are influential to Anakin looking for the good in him regardless of harm he caused, while Palpatine also who is influential is trying to alter Anakin's perception of what is to be a force user. The emperor's theme while Anakin pours his heart out, could be possibly pertaining to that.

Padme also listens first, then offers solace.

 

i hope ep3 has an R rating. cause anakin and amidala have got to get it on, and, wouldnt it be funny to see anakin using the force in the love tackle?

 

There seem to be two issues conflated here:

1) Was Anakin's action right?

2) Was Padme's reaction reasonable?

The answer to 1) is a resounding no. The Tusken slaughter is clearly portrayed as a Dark side act. It marks the first appearance of Darth Vader in Anakin, mirroring ESB where Anakin begins to reappear in Vader. For Anakin's act to be justified in any way undermines the whole story of the saga.

In analysing Padme's reaction, however, we must bear in mind that she is reacting not just to the slaughter, but to the clear evidence that Anakin hates and is struggling against this aspect of himself. After all, he isn't Vader yet. Anakin's act of vengeance offers no humanity for Padme to warm up to, but his confession does. So Padme comforts him, showing support not for Tusken decapitation, but for Anakin's resistance to and struggle against this aspect of himself.

Does it make Padme naive that she sees and responds to the good in Anakin when he has just done great evil? Well, consider this. At some point in the future, Padme will have an offspring who shares her 'naivete'. He will acknowledge the struggle in Anakin and try to encourage him at a time when all others think Anakin must just be rejected as evil. And this will lead to the salvation of the galaxy.

 

I've been angry, I've been angry about very personal things and very traumatic things. I haven't killed a village. We all experience anger, but what defines us is what we do with that anger. What Anakin did *wasn't* human - it was bestial, base, and irrational.

i hope you're not simply comparing being angry to finding your mother tortured & dying with the bad guys who caused it lingering outside

 

You have no idea what I'm referencing, and it would be an inappropriate discussion for a SW message board, so I wouldn't go there, were I you.

 

The fact that people don't get that what Anakin did was wrong makes me realize two things:

1)there are a lot sick people on these boards who don't know right from wrong.

2)Lucas did not succeed in this sequence in portraying what he was trying to show.

Everyone here knows what Anakin did was wrong, you are missing what everyone is saying.

And Lucas' own desired effect for this whole sequence like most of AOTC, is to smudge the the right & wrong line.
Its moral ambiguity at its best.
How can we understand someone's actions when they have done such wrong? Why do people still love someone after they committ such evil acts?
These sorts of questions popped into my head when I viewed AOTC.

The answer to both of those questions is because we understand those same emotions, feel them even more realistically because the situations and people we deal with provoke such emotions.

 

ani-
Understand they kidnap women and kill them...

So do some humans.

They attack(sp) people for no reason.

Humans have been known to do that too.
Do you condemn the entire human race ?

This is not a nice race.

Once again you're condemning an entire race based on very little knowledge.

And no you can't compare them to something in real life.

Yes , I can.

And no no matter how many times you say it this is not a nice race. They kill any and all people that be they human or not.

Once again you're condemning an entire race.

This was a good woman. A good woman who dead. I like her character. So when I saw that scene my heart broke. She never really even got to say goodbye to Anakin.

Yes, it was sad and painful for Anakin. And I liked Shmi too. Losing someone like that to murder would cause anyone enormous pain.

And I wonder how the friends and families of those murdered Tuskens felt - Anakin killed many, how much pain did that cause? How many of the Tuskens who were affected by this pain also decided on a path of revenge? How many humans would they kill in the years to come in retribution?
Anakin was an agent of the Law, he had great powers which had been trained, he had responsibility to use those powers for good, not SLAUGHTER. What he did could have far reaching consequences.

This view that the entire race is bad is very narrow minded.

g

 

"Understand they kidnap women and kill them. They attack(sp) people for no reason. 30 men went out to save Shmi and only 4 came back.

This is not a nice race. And no you can't compare them to something in real life. And no no matter how many times you say it this is not a nice race. They kill any and all people that be they human or not."

Well Jews, according to the Torah have had God wipe out several civilzations in their name. Today Isreal continues to kill Palestine, whom they ejected from their own land and drove into the desert. Should we kill all the Jews?


Germans are responsible for not one, but two world wars, and the holocaust. Then have millions of murders to atone for. She we eradicate the Germans? They seem to be pure evil if you foucs on WWI WWII, and the holocaust?

What about the United states of America? They wiped out the Indians. Enslaved millions of Africans and treated them with nothing but brutality. They killed millions of their own people in a bloody civil war. They must be animals, wipe them out right? No? Need more reasons? Okay, Americans fund dictatorships all over the world to help keep us driving SUVs, and eatting microwave dinners. SOmetimes the US has actually funded both sides of a conflict. In east Timor during the 70s up until the mid 90s half a million innocent people were systematically wiped out by Indoesians who wanted their land, using American guns, american money, and American appproval, so that the rich oil feilds could be harvested, and the waters nearby were a prime spot to position anti-soviet submarines.

In its bloodied history, the USA has more then a billion deaths to account for both directly and indirectly.

So would it be right to wipe out the USA?

SOme people think so, and they went so far as to fly planes into buildings and killed over 3000 people in the process. Contrary to popular belief, this was not some out of the blue attack, but rather retaliation for American bombings in Afaganistan in 1998, as well as a history of American exploitation of the arab regions. The man who planned the attacks was infact trained by the CIA, and recieved most of the wealth and knowledge he needed to plan the attack from the very nation that would suffer under it.

But thats okay, because Americans have proven that they are vile animals, so they deserve to be wiped out. Right?

No?

But why not? Sure, they have women and children in America who have yet to commit a crime. But the will one day rest assure. ANd in a way, aren't we all guilty of living in a wealthy nation while others starve?

But that doesn't justify the horrors of 9/11 does it?

Of course not. Nothing could. But violence always looks different when its happening to you.

Those "evil doers" the Arabs coming to get us. Maybe we should go wipe them out? Lets role right?

Wrong.

This is why violence doesn't work. It only begets more violence in return. You could kill every terrorist in the world and it wouldn't solve anything, in fact it would make things 10 times worse.

"And again I'm going by all the SW movies that have had Tuskens and what I read in the books. It's hard for me to fell sorry for them. Because all the history I read about the Tuskens in the SW galaxy has been bad things."

ANd what about the wasp white subarbanite whose whole view of African Americans is the rap listening to, crack smoking, wife beating, gangbanging, drug selling criminal whose destiny is a life of crime?

They probably wouldn't feel to bad if Harlem or Compton just got destroyed.

Your view of the Tuskens is no different then how People have viewed Blacks, hispanics, Asians, arabs, Jews, poor people, gays, and the way much of the world views Americans.

We have to see past our hate, to govern our passion when we look at other people. This is of course one of the central lessons of the SW saga, control your anger and your hate.

How did Luke eventually defeat the emperor and Vader? DId he kick butt like AOTC Yoda? Did he attack with some badass darth Maul moves? No. He

 

Can we get back on topic? We know killing in general is bad. "Wars not make one great."

IMHO although Hayden did a decent job in that scene, it make Padme look like an idiot. She stood there listening to a Jedi Knight confess that he destroyed a village(no matter what kind of village, it was nevertheless a village).

 

What is really sad is that this was a great scene in the theatre, and then they messed with it and on DVD its ruined.

It was way better when Padme didn't know what to say, and just sat there with him while he sobbed.

Though it was always bad when Padme said "whats wrong Ani?"

Duh! His mom just died. Padme is definitly the worst character in SW.


"Can we get back on topic? We know killing in general is bad."

But the problem is a lot of people don't get this. There are a lot of people in the forum who think there was nothing wrong with what Anakin did.

 

And I wonder how the friends and families of those murdered Tuskens felt - Anakin killed many, how much pain did that cause? How many of the Tuskens who were affected by this pain also decided on a path of revenge? How many humans would they kill in the years to come in retribution?

Uh ? The Tusken have been doing stuff like that long before Anakin ever came around. They don't care who they like or if they human or non-human. They don't like any one. They even like Jawa's they kill them to.

Star Wars Tusken Raiders

Fearsome desert savages inhabiting the rocky Jundland Wastes, Tusken Raiders are the foremost reason Tatooine colonists do not wander far from their isolated communities. Extremely territorial and xenophobic, Tusken Raiders will attack with very little provocation. They show no allegiance to even their native world-mates, as these nomads have attacked Jawa scouting parties on occasion. They have even gathered numbers large enough to attack the outskirts of smaller towns like Anchorhead.

That what they are ever one of them. It even says it on the Star Wars website. They kill any and all people. Does not matter who you are or what you have done. That is the kind of race they are.

Edit: Heck we could even go on mroe step and say that the Jedi in the EU commeted(sp)Genocide wehn the killed the women and children Yuuzhan Vong. Even though the Vong came in and were killing people.

This is Star Wars ever thing I know about the character and Species comes form the main site the movies and the books. When they say in there bios they are not nice people then they are not nice people.

 

"And Lucas' own desired effect for this whole sequence like most of AOTC, is to smudge the the right & wrong line."

And then you say this is *moral ambiguity* at its best??!! It's too bad you didn't see Lucas's long interview with Katie Couric 4 years ago when TPM first came out (MSNBC replayed it for quite awhile in a collection of Lucas/SW interviews). Couric asked Lucas what he thought about other movies these days which deal with good vs. evil and Lucas said that he doesn't care for most of the current films because they *blur the line between the good guys and the bad guys and what's right and wrong.* He then went on to say this is a gray area he specifically *avoids* with SW, emphasizing the movies advocate a clear line between good and evil.

Wake up call, folks. Anakin redeeming himself at the end of RoTJ doesn't excuse the path he's on now in any way. Yes, he's had some major bruises on the way but ultimately it's his choice and he's *choosing evil.*

To say that Lucas is pushing moral ambiguity with the Tusken scene is totally missing Lucas's point! Yikes...

Yes the PT asks how can others love Anakin but that question is answered after he *redeems* himself, not *while* he's on the wrong path!

 

Wake up call, folks. Anakin redeeming himself at the end of RoTJ doesn't excuse the path he's on now in any way.

At the end of ROTJ Anakin is standing with Obi-wan and Yoda. They forgave him of ever thing he did. Heck so did the force.

 

I still don't see how any of this has to do with Padme's reaction to Anakin's confession...

And I think we all know that the slaughter was bad. I certainly hope people aren't saying that Anakin was justified. I just think that it's not as impactful for Padme as it should be because she doesn't know anything about the Tuskens but what Cliegg tells her.

Cometgreen

 

I'm, not saying it was justfied,but if I was in the same picture as Anakin I may have done the same thing. This isn't a clear right or wrong answer , humanity isn't that simple,under certain circumstances we are all capable of losing control,. In Anakin's case it was extreme circumstanes and an extreme reaction, but god forbid it was my mother there would be hell to pay to. I admit rationally its probably the wrong method, but the hell is going to react rational after their mother is tortured and murdered, by a a bunch of animals.Its not right but its human

 

The man who planned the attacks was infact trained by the CIA, and recieved most of the wealth and knowledge he needed to plan the attack from the very nation that would suffer under it.

That much is actually myth?Bin Laden's been independently wealthy all his life, and the CIA never had any dealings with him personally.

You make a good point about stereotyping, though, and *edited*

ST Edit: Even minor flaming is still considered flaming. Please do not attack one another