Amph "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" : The West Wing Discussion Thread

If we're going to get a "revival", I'd prefer a slightly different take. Instead of President Sam or something, I'd like Minority Leader Sam from the US Senate or something, and working as the party that has to work with a hostile White House. Set it in the same universe, we're still dealing with successful Bartlett administration and the Santos administration fall out, but don't just drop us back into the White House. Drop us into Congress.

 

Sorkin has said that he'd want President Sterling K. Brown, which I mean, yeeessssss!! But he's already on a hit show that will probably go for a long time. He also has said that NBC has given him free reign to do it, but he needs a good storyline idea that isn't going to tarnish or hurt the legacy that the original show has. But all of the original cast have said they came back.


But I'm certainly on the President Sam and CoS Josh train and here's why:

He Shall From Time to Time (S1E12)
President Bartlet [to Rodger Tribbey]: You got a best friend?
Tribbey: Yes, sir
President Bartlet: Is he smarter than you?
Tribbey: Yes, sir.
President Bartlet: Would you trust him with your life?
Tribbey: Yes, sir.
President Bartlet: That's your chief of staff.


Hartsfield Landing (S3E14)
Sam Seaborn: I don't know how you do it.
President Bartlet: You have a lot of help. You listen to everybody and then you call the play. Sam, you're going to run for President one day. Don't be scared. You can do it. I believe in you.


20 Hours in America Part Two (S4E2)
Sam: I love Josh like a brother and he’s a world-class political mind but until today, I didn’t know he was smarter than I was. I’ve worked here three years and eight months and until you sit in the room all day, you can’t comprehend the chaos of the Oval Office. I had one good moment talking about the global ripple effect of budget deficit, but that was it. The rest of the day was just keeping up. And this was a pretty light day.






I might have issues.

 

I like the idea of Minority Leader Sam having to deal with a hostile White House. I agree that the show would have to find a slightly new angle to keep it from feeling stale. But I'd definitely try to find organic ways to bring at least most of the original cast back for at least recurring roles. Here's what I've got so far...

West Wing:

- President Harlan "Harry" McNamara (yes, I came up with that name last night! I've put way too much thought into this! ) played by Bryan Cranston. The former Republican Governor of Louisiana and recently elected President of the United States.

Chief of Staff Arnold Vinick played by Alan Alda. The more moderate voice of reason in the West Wing who tries to rein in the more destructive impulses of the President.

Mark Prince played by Jesse Plemons. The scion of a powerful political family and a staff writer in the West Wing. He'd be the new Josh/Sam of the series and he'd rise up the ranks as the series progressed.

Congress:

Minority Leader Sam Seaborn played by Rob Lowe. He's dealing with his party losing power and now having to deal with a hostile White House. As the series progresses he eventually challenges McNamara for the Presidency.

Charlie Young played by Dulé Hill. He's Sam's Chief of Staff and married to Zoey Barlet.

Media:

Josh Lyman played Bradley Whitford. A political commentator on CNN. He starts out as sort of like George Stephanopoulos. He's retired from politics and appears as a commentator on numerous programs. He's brought back into politics when Seaborn runs for President and runs his campaign.

C.J. Cregg played by Allison Janney. She's now a top producer for CNN and Lyman's boss. C.J. and Josh are just too good together to separate. And I like the idea that she's still his boss.

Civilian:

Toby Ziegler played Richard Schiff. He's now a professor and was Mark Prince's favorite teacher while in college (even though they never agreed on anything.) He serves as a mentor figure to Mark as he starts working in the West Wing.

Josiah Barlet played by Martin Sheen. Of the original cast he'd have the smallest role if it were up to me. I love Jed but I can't think of a role he could play without it feeling forced. He's been an elder statesman ever since leaving office but has become ill as the new series starts.

So my idea would be that the premiere starts with Jed asking Sam to come see him in New Hampshire. They have a conversation where Jed gently chastises Sam for not running against McNamara and tells him he could have won but was scared. Sam leaves and later in the episode Jed dies. The original cast are then brought back for the funeral where we meet the new President and many of the other new cast members. Sam returns to his office and tells his staff that he's going to run for President in the next election and that he plans on winning! That's the end of the first episode and the show goes on from there.

Cheesy I know.

 

I like the general feel for it, but there are a few things I would change or add.

1. I think Vinick is probably a bit too old at this point for that position and is likely semi-retired. I imagine he'd be practicing law or something. In any case I don't see him or Santos having a major role. They could guest or cameo a few times but I don't see much room for them.

2. I like the idea of Toby being the mentor/professor of someone in the White House, but I don't know if he'd be able to sit with a lot of the things a Republican administration would have. If there is a relationship there it should have a lot of friction even if he does care about the guy.

3. I think Will should be more prominent. He's confirmed to be in Congress a few years later. I can imagine he might be more important now. Kate as well, and it's possible they've gotten together.

4. I really want Donna to be important. She's with Josh at this point and is a lot more experienced. I could see her working with Amy or something.

5. Make sure Debbie is still working for Jed.

6. In general, make the cast more racially and gender diverse. Especially on the Democratic side. Charlie was a great character but aside from when Fitz and Nancy were around and a few other times he was the only black person in sight. The only Asian person who got much screen time was Ed. The women had some great parts and development, but I would love to see it get pushed even further. More female politicians. Maybe the Majority Leader or another prominent Republican senator who interacts with Sam a lot could be a woman. And bring back Ainsley as a regular like she should have been!

And most importantly, don't kill off Jed so early! Martin Sheen isn't even super old.

I also want a Mandy cameo on TV, maybe interacting with Josh, because I think it would be funny. She's back from Mandyville, if only for a moment!

Other characters I could see returning to guest star: Nancy McSally, Oliver Babish, Joey Lucas, Cliff Calley, maybe Bob Russell, maybe Louise Thornton. Lang, Mulready, and Mendoza of course. I always wanted more Stanley as well but I don't know how they would fit him in.

I also wonder if you all think Santos would have been a one or two-term president? I could never decide what I thought.

I'm also not 100% certain the Bartlet presidency would have been viewed as very successful a decade out. Due to the nature of the show a lot of things ended up being pretty underwhelming policy wise even when they worked out. Mostly he inspired good feelings as a leader, but how effective will his policies be considered with a little hindsight?

 

Hey, this is called "fan fiction" -- my wife writes The West Wing fanfiction, and you may know her, she ran your Forum Feud game and me and the rest of our JCC team kept bugging you with GIFs and memes!

I think they may post their fics in the FanFic Forum -- you should head over there.

 

You might be right about that. I just love Alan Alda and want him to come back.

Oh yes there would definitely be a lot of friction! I mean there always is with Toby. Even with people he generally agrees with. That's why I like it. He would genuinely like and care for the kid even if he wants to strangle him most of the time.

Oh, I agree. These were really just some quick thoughts I had and jotted down. Donna is a must as well as some of the others. I'd like for Will to come back too even if I think he's a little weasel.

Yeah, it would suck. The idea I had though was that there's a literal hand off to the new cast about halfway through the episode. It starts with Sam and introducing us to what he's been up to and then we see Bartlet and Josh, C.J., Toby and all the other original cast members and quickly catch up with where they are just before Jed passes. Then at the funeral we're introduced to the new President and most of the new cast and the second half of the show would then follow them as they return to the White House and go about whatever they have going on.

Plus I figure there could be flashbacks to the previous election leading up to Sam's decision not to run even though he's a frontrunner. There could be some reason he decided not to run. Maybe even tie it back to Laurie somehow. Any way I figure Jed could still appear sporadically in the show via those flashbacks.

 

It's not about not having Martin Sheen; of course they could figure out ways to get him in the show. It's just I don't want Jed to die.

One other thing I was thinking about was I really hope some new younger writers would be prominent on the show staff because most of the old staff were Clintonite boomers and gen Xers. It would feel really weird if the same kinds of positions were pushed in an updated setting. I was thinking about how strongly free trade was pushed... it would have to be changed somewhat. I would like more progessivism from at least some of the characters. This would play to Sam's strengths as well, and Donna and Amy's. Sorkin could still be showrunner, because he's great with the characters and dialogue, but I'd like to see more collaboration on the overall vision of the show and on subject matter.

 

Yeah, too bad progressives have gotten regressive and hate free trade now...

 

I'm all for international agreements and greater interconnectedness, but most free trade policies largely just help the corporate class in both countries and often take advantage of the workforces of both countries in different ways. We need fair trade policies, not just free trade, and it has to come with greater labor protections that are actually enforced. But this isn't the thread for that.

 

Richard Schiff confirms that there have at least been talks of a West Wing revival: https://deadline.com/2019/01/richard-schiff-the-west-wing-reboot-aaron-sorkin-1202531082/

 

Someone on Reddit asked who falls the most left of TWW characters and I thought it was an interesting question that would get some good replies here.

To me, I'd say Leo and Bartlet are the most centrist, but that is probably also looking at it through a lense of today and not 20 years ago. Toby is probably the most left leaning, the most likely to push as far and as hard as he can, Sam is right there with him. I think Josh isn't far behind them, but is often pulled more toward the middle because he's the guy who has to get things done and he can't afford to push too hard (as was evidenced by the tobacco thing). I also think Abbey is more left leaning than Jed, I don't recall her having a particular stance on abortion, but I could see her being pro-choice even against the church and Jed. CJ is hard to pin down for me, she's certainly a staunch feminist, but still seems a bit more centrist than Toby and Sam, maybe on par with Josh?

So for me, at least until you guys come in and make me think some more I think it's:

Toby > Sam > Josh / CJ > Abbey > Leo > Jed

I don't know that we had enough info to put Donna into the mix, she's an idealist like Toby and Sam, but doesn't seem to be for more socialist ideas ("I want my money!").

 

Well for Donna you really have to contrast her before and after season 3/4. In the early seasons she was very much a political neophyte who didn't understand a lot of policy particulars. You also have to take into account that she was raised in Wisconsin in probably a fairly centrist community, so her initial instincts were more conservative. A few years in she's learned a lot and developed her own ideology, and I'd say she's probably more left-leaning by that point.

That said if we had to pick a "most left" character it has to be Sam. Toby was left-wing for the time, but some of his positions have aged badly ("screw the environmental lobby" comes to mind), while Sam wouldn't be far off from being a progressive today.

Ultimately though the Bartlet administration was fairly neoliberal and this was reflected by a lot of the staff, Jed and Leo most obviously (Jed due to his economic theories, Leo based off of foreign policy stuff), CJ a bit less so, and Josh a bit less than her I would say. Josh is rehabilitated somewhat by his actions involving Santos, though. Before that point I would say he was right along the establishment line.

Will is weird; he feels very different before and after Sorkin's departure. I'd say he's probably somewhat centrist, though. We don't know anything about his original Orange County candidate before he died, but, well, he was a Democrat running in Orange County in the early 2000s; I'll bet he wasn't super liberal. Will strikes me as someone who is "Anyone but the Republicans". He would have been a proud supporter of Hillary and would have stumped heavily for her.

We never get a great sense of Charlie or Kate's ideology, but they're probably "reasonably left-wing" and "center-left to centrist" respectively based on what we do know about them.

As an aside where did Hutchison come from? Was he a GOP Senate snipe? His behavior is always weird and clashing with everyone else's. How did he last the whole administration?

 

I wouldn't take that as a given (unless we're talking centerst compared to Toby, Sam, et al, then yes, I take your point). Yes, she has very little political policy knowledge but she did drive all the way across the country to volunteer for the candidate who was the most (seemingly) progressive. Also she did some of her many majors in Poli Sci, though I'd wager not much of it given her knowledge.
But yes, I agree she had a lot of growth compared to the other characters, which is why I find her a but hard to pin down.

Will I didn't say anything because he had a drastic shift in character after Season 4 so it's hard to know where he'd go. But taking him in as a whole, I agree with you.

 

When we met Will, we've got this initial spark of a character that is left of Toby.

What he evolves into, though ...

From a campaign of ideas to running the campaign for Bingo Bob.

I can draw two conclusions. Either Sorkin had no idea what actual progressive ideas look like and how they manifest, or Will is a solemn tale on how being in Washington eats your soul and pushes you right

 

OR a tale of two writers...

 

That, too. But don't let facts get in the way of my pre-coffee ranting!

 

I couldn't decide if this should go in the 2020 thread or in here, but I figured everyone in here would appreciate it more.
(If you don't know, that's Pete Buttigieg who is running for President.)

Spoiler

 

Ha, I came here to post it for you but figures you'd post it.

PS @heels1785 for the above.

 

Geez, Brad's beard makes him look even older than he already did.

 

I like it! He's got the silver fox thing going on.
Here's the picture he posted on Twitter:

 

For those who don't have the same type of photographic memory for the show like I do (just ask Mav):



@heels1785 @DarthIntegral

EDIT: I should know that my wife already posted this exact picture. I blame it on us being in different states...

 

Mav, Brad pointing to his smile is just awesome! I actually thought the same thing after I saw Pete on the Bill Maher show.

 

I pray for a proportional response...