PT Prequel Fans Don't Need Your Bad Defenses: A Criticism of "PT Apologism"

Glad to see I'm not the only one.

 

Ashoka is the latest of the show's problems though. My favorite defense is: "the show adds so much more weight to Anakin and Padmè now" and like for past 14 years I'm like... HOW??? They turned Padmè into a raging pacifist to fit whatever moral message of the week. When she got called out by the Kamino Senator for making sense for once as a way of a writer's joke, I couldn't laugh because I agreed wholeheartedly with her. It never even touched upon the complexity that her position as the Loyalist who granted Palpatine by proxy and now Anakin Skywalker's secret wife would put her in..and Anakin turned into G.I Jo of Star Wars..the nail on the coffin is their marriage being portrayed as two people that shouldn't be together..all to justify the Force choke. ok mini rant over.

@The Emotional Jedi you're not alone.

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I quite agree with this. The show turned Padmé into the John Lennon of the Star Wars universe, who wants peace at all costs. I mean, yes, we all know that Padmé was part of the peaceful faction of the Senate who wanted to resolve the War with a diplomatic and peaceful solution, there's no need to emphasize that in every episode, and above all, it makes no sense that she proposes to stop the creation of the Clones to end the War peacefully. If the Separatists are still at war with you and you want to resolve the War peacefully and diplomatically, how can you think to propose stopping the creation of the Clones? It’s stupid, because this way the Separatists will have an advantage over the Republic. If you want to stop the War in a diplomatic way, you still have to secure a certain degree of defense, if you deprive yourself of any defense you remain defenseless, and therefore it's useless. The dismantling of the Army should be carried out after the peaceful end of a war, not before. It's a basic military policy. So, it’s a counterproductive move that makes Padmé look like an incompetent

 

@The Emotional Jedi like I said, it doesn't make sense:

Naboo granted emergency powers to Palatine.

Padmè at her trail deleted scene in AOTC:

"You are committing an act of war Archduke, I hope you are prepared for the consequences."

Padmè IS Married to a General of the Republic Army.

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To be fair and clear, in the TCW arc in question, promising negotiations for peace were being brought to the table while the Senate was debating over whether or not to deregulate the banks in order to fund the creation of more Clones. Voting in favor would drain the Republic's finances and allow the war to drag on indefinitely.

An espionage attack on the central power grid swayed the Senate to vote in favor of the deregulation, which Padmé and Bail discovered would bankrupt the Republic. Padmé appealed for the Senate to consider that when the infrastructure and the basic public services suffer, the people suffer. And if there are no more people of the Republic, then what are they fighting for? And wouldn't Dooku already win? It's a conundrum, which there are a bunch of in Lucas' Star Wars films.
And it was interesting to see Padmé foil Palpatine's plans.

 

Alot of reviews for Obi Wan Kenobi have described it as a love letter to the PT fans. And yeah i can see it.

Its weird because back in 2015 when watching TFA i almost felt like any PT reference would be charity for the PT fans and thats just how Star Wars was gonna be for a while. And the throwbacks to the PT slowly just become bigger and more relevant. Then we got Ray Park back as Maul for a cameo, we got Temuera back to now play Boba Fett, which is a cool little thing for PT fans. And then Kenobi comes out and its pretty full of PT references.

 

Based on designs, characters, continuity, story and camera work, I don't see it as a real love letter, at least not a real caring one.

 

I see it as a very passionate love letter to the prequels on the other hand.

Camera work is not a factor I take into account when I watch any movie, let alone a Star Wars movie/show.

The characters, the continuity and the story in OWK were exactly as I would have expected them to be, and a direct continuation of the prequels.

 

I don't see it as that, in a strongly caring way.

 

I'm a big fan of the prequels, they have always been my favourite star wars movies. Maybe because I grew up with them, I don't know, but I never got people hating something that I loved so much. So it's great that there's recently been this prequel revival, so to speak, and I agree that the Kenobi show felt as a love letter to the prequel fans. True, it had some flaws - come on, which star wars movie doesn't? - but where it counts, they got it right.

I mean, if you had told me five years ago that they would be brave enough to bring Hayden Christensen back, give him a prominent role in the series, include quotations from the prequel movies, or even that they would start the series with an EPIC recap of the prequel trilogy... I would never have believed it. I still can't believe some of the things we got to be honest, so it's enough for me to give it a 10/10 despite some of the flaws, because for me they are insignificant compared with the awesomeness we got

 

I understand the premise of the OP, but it seems like you either have the choice of being a gusher or a hater, which I don't think is very realistic. A person can be critical of certain aspects of the PT, but still get much enjoyment out of them or call themselves fans of the PT.

I used to be very critical of the PT, but got a renewed appreciation of the story, and creativity that went into these films, especially in the wake of the creative dearth of the ST. So, my feelings of the films are somewhat mixed, which probably is how a lot of people feel about the PT. At the same time I think enough has been said about the percieved weaknesses about these films over the years, and I'm happy that they are now being viewed in a more positive light.

 

I don't think the OP is talking about all the people who think the PT is "just ok" or that it's good with flaws.

I think he is being a little critical of the people who feel they have to mention the flaws (or I should say, what they perceive as flaws) of the PT whenever they talk about it, and especially of the people that will react to any praise of the PT by responding "yeah, but they're not perfect, they have flaws X and Y and Z", while they don't do the same for other media (including the OT). There is this hidden "shame" for a lot of people in admitting that the PT is actually great, because of the popularity of certain pop culture trends that ripped the prequels apart, and the OP is making the case that there is no need for that shame.

As I have stated earlier in this topic, I am in total agreement with him on that. I will unapologetically love the prequels to the maximum, and I don't find any significant or objective "flaws" in them. I love them exactly as they are, and I don't want them to be anything different than what they are, nor will I make any discounts in my opinion because it's "widely accepted". That doesn't mean I think there can only be gushers and haters, I am totally ok with anyone feeling lukewarm about them.

 

I think it is to a large degree a necessary process, where main stream opinion is shifting from being generally very dismissive of the PT and Lucas in general to a more fair assessment of Lucas' legacy as opposed to what came after. It took a decade to go from Disney will save Star Wars from its mad creator to now Lucas again being pretty much the benchmark for what Star Wars is supposed to be. I think we should embrace this cultural shift, and just take the bitter with the sweet, knowing that the hate for these films will not be their long term legacy.

 

I don't agree that main stream opinion was ever "Very Dismissive" of the PT and Lucas, I think that was mostly a vocal minority, which certainly was far more prominent in online media than in actual reality. And while social media in the year 2022 is something that almost everyone dives into, it wasn't like this in 2005 or 2008. There were some messageboards, the IMDB and some online sources that magnified the prequel hate, but I still don't understand how people make the claim that the prequels were universally hated, just because they hated them. So to me the only "fair assessment" of the prequels is that there's nothing wrong with them.

I think we should embrace this cultural shift, and remove the bitter while the deal becomes even sweeter in the future

 

When I say main stream, I mean the main stream media, and outlets, those that control the narrative. There were several shifts in the way the films were percieved over the years. Upon release the first two films got a mixed reception, and ROTS a generally positive one. Over time however the narrative shifted towards the PT just being bad movies, and bashing them became pretty much the default attitude in the media. While I agree that there was a loud vocal minority who magnified the hate, I also think we should not underestimate the effect the negative coverage had on the public perception of the films. It even got to the point, that a company like Disney would deliberately ignore them out of a fear, that their films would in some way be associated with the PT. The public perception and Disney's risk adverse stance ultimately led to Lucas' ST not coming to light. So, whatever the feelings in the fanbase, the narrative that had been spun for many years by so called reputable sources has had far reaching consequences well beyond the tantrums of a loud minority of fans.

 

Oh yeah, I agree with all of the above.

Especially with this. It was always baffling why back in 2003 and 2005 most people in my experience generally thought of the prequels as good movies (seriously, everyone in my circle went to see AOTC and ROTS 2-3 times each in the movie theaters), just not as great as the originals (and some of them rated them equally good or even better), with a very small minority actually hating them....... and suddenly after 2007 there was a shift, mostly online and mostly pushed by media as you said, which made it trendy to hate on the prequels. Clickbait videos like RLM reviews, stupid movies like "Fanboys", and awfully biased (borderline hateful) documentaries like The People VS George Lucas made it even worse.

I am glad things are changing, and I hope they change more.

 

Yep. Nailed it. That’s what I’m conveying with my thoughts. @DrDre I have no issue with people who do have criticisms with them as nothing is binary (even a lot of OT fans have issues with ROTJ as a movie), yet there never feels like a need to discuss the perceived flaws from those who do have issues with that film, at least not immediately after you say you’re a big fan of the OT, in the same way the PT gets discussed.

 

Just to clarify: Fanboys does not hate on the PT or EP I. The movie is from Kyle Newman, who loves the Prequels. The guy is more on the ST hate bandwagon.

 

I have seen the movie, and the dudes in the movie realize at the end of it that Phantom Menace sucked.
It most definitely hates on Episode I.

 

They dont mate. They leave it open. The last line in the movie is: "what if it sucks?"

But I can confirm to 100000 % that the writer/director is a PT lover.

 

The number of people who hated the PT wasn't small. It was pretty substantial. Back then, a lot of people were more than critical. And the devisiness wasn't fueled by the media. It was fueled by the internet. The media just reported on it. YouTube just provided an outlet that was widely available. Streaming video prior to YouTube wasn't as high as it became by the end of the decade. There was a greater risk of viruses and malware, as well broadband access was more limiting. YouTube gave birth to content creators, who in turn were the same people from the forums and chat rooms. There had been no central hub to view videos.

 

That's not the way I remember it. Back in 1999 the internet was still in its startup phase and forums were still pretty limited. When it came to PT hate, I remember a number of I hate Jar Jar websites popping up, which amounted to little more than a picture of Jar Jar being shot or something alike. However, what really drove the narrative were the mixed reviews. Back then there was no youtube (which started in 2005), or anything like it. Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd weren't being harrassed by fans like in the ST era, it was the bashing in the media, that drove them to a very dark place. When it came to Lucas in 1999 the main thrust of the story was, that he was a little rusty after two decades of inactivity, and surrounded by yes men. When the response in 2002 to AOTC was very similar to TPM the narrative shifted towards Lucas having lost it, or worse never having it at all. The PT by then was being overshadowed by the Matrix, LOTR, and Harry Potter, which were getting a much better reception. Add to this the controversy of the SE replacing the originals, and Lucas' continued tinkering with those films, and you got the perfect media storm. ROTS got a much better reception though with mostly positive reviews, although you might argue it was too little too late for the media reputation of the PT as a whole. The Clone Wars animated movie however in 2008 was almost universally panned, and destroyed what remained of the the goodwill ROTS had created. I don't think the fan response was very prominent in the media up till this point, other than many writers for these media outlets having grown up in the 1970s and 1980s and being OOT fans themselves. Youtube would change that, which around this time was experiencing exponential growth. The arrival of the first Plinket review in 2009 and its popularity was the beginning of a period of online vitriol towards the PT, that lasted until it was overshadowed by the ST.

 

I feel like I have been guilty of some “apologist” defences of the PT over the years. It’s kind of sad that the negative hype put some of us in that frame of mind. I’ve always liked the PT and it is nice to see it getting more respect recently. The Lucas sextet works amazingly as a larger whole more than it’s individual parts, and it is something I don’t think I will ever forget, it is ingrained in me. I feel like more stubborn critical viewers are really missing out.

 

I was around at the time and yes while the Internet was new and nowhere as big as it would get, there were fan-sites, message boards so people did have have an easier time to share their thoughts than in the 70's and 80's.

The hype for TPM was unreal, both among audiences and in the media. That could possibly be part of the reason for the backlash. That the hype was such that no film could ever live up to it.
But I was around on several sites and I had started to follow the project of Lord of the Rings being made into films. Tolkien fans had a LOT to say about that.
Some were cautiously optimistic, others decided over a year before the first film was even released that these films would suck and PJ was a criminal on the level with Hitler and his crime was equal to that of the Holocaust. Yeah some of the Tolkien purists REALLY liked to exaggerate.

TPM had mixed reviews, some good, some bad and some in-between. It was not universal hate, despite what some tried to claim later. Nor was it universal acclaim either.
On the message boards and I lurked a bit here, not much as I wanted to avoid spoilers.
But the reception was also mixed with fans. Some liked it, some loved it, some disliked it and some really didn't like it. I don't think either reaction is anymore right or wrong. It was their opinion.
What then happened as the Internet grew, AotC came out, LotR came out, Harry potter came out and the divisions grew. To the point were some parts of the fandom declared open war on the other side and confused anyone in the middle for being the enemy.

A mildly positive review of AotC was enough to get you labeled a Lucas fanboy and gusher. Any criticism was enough to get you labeled a mindless hater and basher. That is why the Sanc. came about, to stop the flame wars. Neither side were innocent.
And you had talks about who was/wasn't a "real fan" and things like that.
Putting labels on people and placing them into a box so they could then ignore what they said.
I have been called a Nazi for liking the OOT more than the SE.
Then you add rivalry between fandoms "If you like LotR then you can not like SW!!"

It isn't limited to SW, with comic book fans you have some DC and Marvel fans that go at it.
Even within DC you have some fans that love Nolan and hate all else. Some hate Snyder and all he did, some love it. Some TOS fans hate TNG. Some TNG fans hate DS9 and so on.

Youtube and all that did not create the divisions or what people felt about the films. Nor did the media.
They might just have made the discussion bigger and reached more people and fanned the flames as it were. There is no "Evil Media Conspiracy."
That some of that has died down and people can talk about the PT a bit more calmly I think is a good thing.
In my opinion

For myself, my view of the PT has not changed much. TPM and AotC are mediocre. Some good and some bad. RotS is pretty good but still a bit bad. I can see what Lucas tried to do but I think he did not quite pulled it off. For my friends and family, I know quite a few were let down by TPM and I was one of the more positive ones. AotC much the same and RotS more favorably. And they were not diehard fans nor did they spend any time on message boards or fansites.

In closing, what I think has changed in the last few years, maybe decade, is that other things have crept into the discussion and made it a lot nastier. Stuff about "Woke", "Diversity is bad, "Such and such can not be in this or that!" and things of that sort.
I saw much less of that back in the early 2000's. And it seems more about an agenda than just talking about the film and real life politics seems to have come into this.
Not for the better in my opinion.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark
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Well put @Samuel Vimes