PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Sifo Dyas could have been a much younger clone.....even from a child .......and killed before the comparason could be made.




I don't know what you mean by fanboy.....but I am A father of Five and was there when it all began in 77...I have not read any novels and do not normaly post outlandish theroies but this all fits to well.

 

lucas has never been nebulous about the fact that palpy and sidious are the same. why would the databank say that emperor palpatine zapped luke?

 

Sidious assumes the Palpatine role......so he is Emperor Palpatine......and they still are the same person from a certain point of veiw.

 

george lucas is lying to you. he is fooling you. in the end. you will know that they are two seperate people. they just look the same. he is very smart. and he would not make it that simple.

 

Actually if you read the data bank very carefully, all it does is verify the Palpatine becomes Emperor. There is no mention of Sidious at all. It is carefully worded.

In case you didn?t already notice, there is also a separate listing for Sidious. (it even goes so far to list different heights for Sidious and Palpatine.) Looking through all the places where it cross-references either Palpatine or Sidious, there never is anything that suggests they are the same. Nowhere does it say that Vader/Anakin is the apprentice of Sidious. Only that he is the apprentice of Palpatine. In fact on almost every other plot point they go into much detail, but not Sidious, he is really only mentioned in conjunction with Maul and his interaction with the trade federation.

It also repeatedly states his identity is unknown, and points like the members of the trade federation never met him face to face.

I don?t really have much of an opinion either way at this point, but it appears that the Star Wars site continually either doesn?t address it or reinforces that they are separate characters. This I find odd. It is common belief that they are the same person; they are even played by the same actor. They never pretend that Anakin and Vader are separate characters. Yet they hold to the fact that Sidious and Palpatine are different characters.

I just don?t see anywhere in the databank that it implies that Palpatine = Sidious.

It says Palpatine becomes the Emperor, and that Palpatine is a Sith. That is all it says.

Anything beyond that is speculation. (granted a pretty good speculation, and one that is held by many people, but a speculation none the less) The only ?proof? that they are the same person is that they are played by the same actor. There are very interesting arguments on both sides, but neither has ?proof?, just speculation.

I do see negative aspects to both though?
If Sid = Palp : I hope that won?t be the ?big twist? in III. Most people believe that anyway. And it sure makes Yoda and the crew seem pretty weak to have the lord of the Sith in close contact and not be fully aware of him.

If Sid != Palp : III has got to cover a lot of ground to address the major points that it needs to. Introducing a new complexity to this dynamic this late in the game would really crowd III with plotlines, and it (at this point) appears to be something not really relevant to the central story.

Anyway? that?s my too scents.
Scott.

 

There are several discrepancies in the current "obvious" depiction of the Palpatine/Sidious connection:

1. Chancellor Palpatine does not meet the extreme age (1000 years old) requirements of Emperor Palpatine.

2. If Chancellor Palpatine is indeed the Sith Master Emperor Palpatine was in the OT, he would've exuded dark side eminations that would've revealed him to the members of the Jedi council long before AotC. This has not happened. Proximity does have some bearing on the strength of force eminations.

3. Nearly simultaneously appearances of Sidious and Chancellor Palpatine in entirely different places.

4. Lack of immediate common information sharing between Palpatine and Sidious. One has different information and different reactions than the other at any given moment. Although this speaks volumes about duality, it also tends to speak even louder about separate identities -- et.al, two different people who just happen to have similar goals and identical appearances. The fact this "similarity" appears to be in a movie about clones is a rather loud hint that "something is not right here."

5. Lacking any additional information requires more speculation than facts, but the clone theory withstands the rigors of the timeline, and the discrepancies in the current Palpatine/Sidious connection demand a rethinking.

Yuppers, I agree with jedi-wanna-be.

-Undomiel
"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" - Leia Organa, Star Wars IV: A New Hope

 

When you put it like that, it does make sense. You put a good case.

But, when you think of Palpatine, what he is and what he represents, it doesn't seem right. Are you expecting us to believe that this mighty individual, powerful (with or without the Force), cunning, ambitious, manipulative, wise, far-seing, all-knowing (nearly) and downright evil, is actually just a puppet for someone who is going to off him at the end? Is someone that ambitious really going to go along with a plan that will see him killed and usurped at the end? (Palpatine must be in on the plan for him to be any use to Sidious, and he must realise that he will be killed.)

Nope, he's far too ambitious and powerful to help someone else like that. And the fact that the jedi council don't sense him just adds to his awesomeness as a character. You must understand that George has created the ULTIMATE villian in Sidious/Palpatine. To split them into two individuals would be to water down both their characters significantly.

They ARE the same person. They have to be for the story to be dramatically powerful.

Carl.[

 

zeekveerko
lucas is only connected to the eu by his pocketbook. he doesn't read the books, he has no time. he has certain stipulations that you can't write about things that would give away secrets in the new movies because that's all that matters to him, and the money rolling in.

That is not true, when Dark Empire first came out GL was so impressed with the storyline that he purchased quite a few copies for friends and relatives as christmas gifts. He does absorb some of the material written, but he does not have to answer to it. That is a distinction that has been missed in the discussion of what is or is not canon. GL is the "Creator" of the Star Wars universe, he doesn't have to answer to anything but the laws he himself has set up. Many would like to see him stay true to everything outside the movies, but that's his perogative. He has said he writes these movies for himself primarily. He doesn't answer to you or me...thankfully. So if Sidious=Palpatine or not, is ultimately up to him, and what his vision of the Star Wars Saga is. Not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome...that is obvious, but I think he will pull it all together and we'll be surprised regardless.

 

hmm......Palp has blue eyes.....the emperor has yellow eyes......we haven`t seen Sidious eyes, by the way.....

 

Look closely: "HIS goal is for PALPATINE to become chancellor."

Just like a young Jedi by the name of Darth Vader murdered Luke's father.

There is a precedent of referring to people turned to the darkside as being a different person then their unturned self. Remember Vader and Luke:

Luke: I believe that you were once my father, Anakin Skywalker.

Vader: That name no longer holds any meaning to me.

When someone turns to the darkside, they literally become a different person.

 

One more comment:

What would "Palpatine is Sidious' clone!" do to the dramatic tension of Episode I and II? I think it would ruin it because instead of a scheming Sith lord sitting right under the Jedi's noses and maniuplating his way to ultimate power, we instead have nothing but a dumb puppet who is of no consequence in the long run and would make Palpatine a wholly uninteresting character.

From that standpoint, Sidious and Palpatine have to be the same person for dramatic and storytelling reasons.

 

I was buying into the fact that Sidious and Palps could be two different entities, but I now remember the scene with Anakin and Palps where Palps says "I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi". This scene, to me, showed that Palps has had an influence on Anakin throughout his training and is near ready to make him his new apprentice as Sideous, like he has been secretly training him all along. Just my take on it.

 

i was watching attack of the clones last night, and one thing that always gets me is the way palpatine delivers his lines. i was there with my brother, and when palps said he cared about amidala my bro started laughing. this is someone who casually watches the movies, but has instantly picked up on the connection of palps = emperor.
later in the movie he says, "i love democracy," and this had us both laughing, because we all know it's not true.
yes, under the hood sids speaks a little different and sometimes even contradicts palps, but that's because as the chancellor he means nothing he says, and delivers all his lines with a certain level of sarcasm. we even see signs of yoda nearing revelation in the matter in the second scene of the movie, right after palps finishes padme's sentence. yoda's face turns mean, and the music creates a slight dramatic tension as he attempts to peer into the chancellor but can find nothing because "the dark side clouds everything"
then we learn that anakin has been receiving guidance from palpatine during the gap, and not the kind of positive guidance he needs, but the kind that will ultimately push him into the dark side. we see every time anakin gets angry he rephrases palps' statement that he doesn't need any guidance, and that 'i FORSEE you will be the greatest jedi ever.'
that's all for now.

thank you for correcting me on the issue of lucas and the eu. perhaps he did read the first books and comics printed, but i'm sure he's read nothing by kevin anderson or anything after zahn's original trilogy.

 

Qui-Jon_Quinn- "Well all I can say is your thesis is full of crap. Sideous is palpatine and becomes the emporer. Aside for even Lucas imself saying this recently, and publicly, go way back to the original novel from ep4 and there is a prologue"

First, you CANNOT use the movie novelizations as support to your theory. Here is why: They contradict the movies. An example: ROTJ novel states that Owen is Obi Wan's brother.... not so in AOTC, so anything from the novelizations is questionable.

Second, PROVE through the movies that the Emperor in ESB and ROTJ is actually Senator Palpatine. The Emperor is never called "Emperor Palpatine" in any movie, therefore you cannot assume that he is Emperor Palpatine. When watching the movies in order, you will assume that "Darth Sidous" becomes Emperor because they look the same, however, you still cannot produce any definitive proof from the movies that Palpatine=Sidious. With that said, that now opens the door to the speculation that Palpatine and Sidious are not the same person.

Why would GL, who keeps just about everything else in his story top secret, come out and say that they are the same "just" to stop fanboy rumors? That is way out of character for GL. If they are one and the same, why would GL feel it necessary to keep Sidious "cloaked" when speaking privately with Darth Maul? Hasn't Maul been with him for years? Why does Sidious feel it is essential to keep his "secret" going in front of his apprentice? There is no need unless there is more to the story than the cut and dry answer everyone thinks it is. Answer those questions then we will be closer to the right answer.


BLKNIGHT18- "He's filmed differently to show that he is an alternate part of Palpatine's character."

If they are the same person, what is the need of filming them differently? Maul and Dooku should already know that he is Palaptine, why keep up the charade for them?

Portman_Fan- "obviously, from this excerpt from the databank, the two are one and the same. the words "emperor" and palpatine are used interchangably. and we all saw ESB and ROTJ, so when it says that Palpatine/Emperor was trying to recruit luke, we that they are the same person."

How so? All you have done is tried to prove that Palpatine is the Emperor BUT NOT proven that Palpatine is Sidious or not a clone. You cannot use one licensed material of LFL, but exclude all others. If you are using the movies as the only canon, then there is no proof to support your claim.

"what documented proof do we have of any "clone" theory between palpy and sidious? by documented proof, i mean through things that lucas as flat-out said. people are just drawing conclusions from little bits of information here and there. let's base our conclusions on documented facts"

How about a complete comic book series "officially" authorized by LFL stating Palpatine is a clone, not to mention Kenner producing an action figure on this character, again with LFL authorization.

baccachew- "I was buying into the fact that Sidious and Palps could be two different entities, but I now remember the scene with Anakin and Palps where Palps says "I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi". This scene, to me, showed that Palps has had an influence on Anakin throughout his training and is near ready to make him his new apprentice. Just my take on it."

Have you considered this: When "Palpatine" is chatting with Anakin that it is the REAL bad guy and not the clone? Sidious is the real badguy, but in public he uses the clone to fool the Jedi. When Clone Palpy is close by, they don't feel the darkside, when the real Palpy is chatting with Anakin, Anakin can feel his power.

zeekveerko- "but that's because as the chancellor he means nothing he says"

Wouldn't a pawn, speaking for someone else, also mean nothing they say?

I laughed too because I know that there is eventually an Emperor Palpati

 

Undomiel wrote:

"There are several discrepancies in the current "obvious" depiction of the Palpatine/Sidious connection"

I would like to address each of these points

1. Chancellor Palpatine does not meet the extreme age (1000 years old) requirements of Emperor Palpatine.

-Where in the movies does it state that Emperor Palpatine is 1000 years old? Sounds like a nonsensical EU explanation to me. The only thing mentioned is that the Sith have been extinct for a millennium. But as AOTC proves, the Jedi are not infallible. There could have been dozens of Sith lords that have quietly amassed power without the Jedi being aware of it. Palpatine is able to completely mask his presence in the force from the galaxy's most powerful Jedi masters. Dooku so much as admits this to Obi-Wan.

2. If Chancellor Palpatine is indeed the Sith Master Emperor Palpatine was in the OT, he would've exuded dark side eminations that would've revealed him to the members of the Jedi council long before AotC. This has not happened. Proximity does have some bearing on the strength of force eminations.

Another EU explanation that has been refuted by the movies. See my response to point #1. Palpatine is able to mask his presence in the Force. "The dark side clouds everything".

3. Nearly simultaneously appearances of Sidious and Chancellor Palpatine in entirely different places.

-"Nearly simultaneous" does not mean "simultaneous". And these "entirely different places" are always ON CORUSCANT! How difficult is it to believe that he can move from one place to another ON THE SAME PLANET relatively quickly?

4. Lack of immediate common information sharing between Palpatine and Sidious. One has different information and different reactions than the other at any given moment. Although this speaks volumes about duality, it also tends to speak even louder about separate identities -- et.al, two different people who just happen to have similar goals and identical appearances. The fact this "similarity" appears to be in a movie about clones is a rather loud hint that "something is not right here."

-Of course they're going to have different reactions & different information. He's playing one side against the other! He has to say one thing to the senate & the Jedi as Palpatine, otherwise they'll become suspicious of him & threaten his schemes. Obviously he's going to say the opposite as Sidious, because he's dealing with the enemies of the Republic. It wouldn't do well for him to tell Nute Gunray "I need to raise a grand army to defeat your forces", now would it? Gunray & the other Separatists are only there to provide the Republic with a convenient enemy to focus on & solidify his power base. What he wants is to control the Republic & what better way to control them than by rallying them to his side to go to war against a phantom enemy? The Separatists are merely patsies, and of course they're going to be wiped out, so that none can survive to blow the whistle on his plans for conquest.

5. Lacking any additional information requires more speculation than facts, but the clone theory withstands the rigors of the timeline, and the discrepancies in the current Palpatine/Sidious connection demand a rethinking.

-If you have no additional facts to argue, then this point is unnecsesary. I've just explained the so-called discrepancies in the Palpatine/Sidious connection, so this last point is moot.

Yuppers, I agree with jedi-wanna-be.

-Undomiel

Sorry, I don't agree. Sidious is Palpatine. Get used to it. Dramatically speaking, the story wouldn't work any other way.

 

okay, first of all, disco, that was just rude to say someone's thesis was crap. second of all, in the movie credits to jedi it says Emperor Palpatine. that's movie proof, not novel proof.
i could go on for days with this, but frankly i think that any argument for either side can easily be turned around, but let's not make it angry. you can disagree with someone and still be nice about it. look at the mocking respect obi-wan pays to jango just after he spots his armor behind door #1.

 

zeekveerko- I NEVER said the anyones theory was crap. I was quoting Qui-Jon_Quinn. Read my post again.

 

First off, I have mentioned before that I can go either way on this subject and I think both would be good to see.

Second, here is another way to look at it. We have all been looking at it from back to front, not front to back. Exclude what we already know from OT (pretend that they are not yet filmed or created) and look to and draw our conclusions from TPM and AOTC.

TPM- Senator Palpatine is introduced as a power driven individual stopping at nothing to get what he wants.......to become Chancellor. Senator Palpatine seemingly knows Padme and what she is capable of. Wants Padme to stay on Coruscant where it is safe.

Darth Sidious is introduced as a Sith Lord bent on the destruction of the Jedi. Sidious seems surprised by Padme's aggressiveness. Wants Padme to sign a treaty, only way that can happen is if they capture her.

If Palpatine=Sidious then wouldn't he recommend that Padme go back to Naboo instead of trying to stop her? Or was that just a vain attempt knowing that he would not be able to stop her anyways?

Can we connect the two after TPM?

AOTC- Chancellor Palpatine strengthens his grip on the Republic. Then leads the Republic in a war against the Separtists. Receives power to form a Grand Army of the Republic, which is mysteriously commissioned by a Jedi named Syfo-Dyas.

Darth Sidious in league with Darth Tyrannus plunges the Sepatists into a war with the Republic. Tyrannus recruits Jango Fett to be the template for the clone army commissioned by Syfo-Dyas. This Clone War is part of Sidious' plan.

Can we connect the two after AOTC?

Any thoughts on connecting the dots to prove Palpatine=Sidious or Palpatine?Sidious using ONLY TPM and AOTC?

 

Again... from starwars.com describing the Emperor's Throne Room aboard the second Death Star..

Located at the pinnacle of a slender command tower at the second Death Star's northern pole, the Emperor's throne room served as the base of operations for Palpatine during his visit to the battle station. From this lofty locale, Palpatine could survey the cosmos itself and reflect on the order he had carved from a rotting Republic. A circular viewport lined with a web-like framework provided a stunning view.

Palpatine's bio on starwars.com:
He also concentrated on converting Luke Skywalker to the dark side of the Force, even at the expense of sacrificing Vader. In the Death Star, high above the Battle of Endor, Luke refused the Emperor's newfound dark side power, and so Palpatine used his deadly Force lightning to attack the young Jedi. Luke almost died in the assault, but his father, Darth Vader, returned to the light side of the Force, and hurled the Emperor into the Death Star's reactor core, killing him.

Palpatine was a gnarled, old man. An ancient-looking human, he had pale skin, and searing, sickly yellow eyes. He wore a heavy dark cloak, and carried a glossy black cane.

Palpatine=Sidious

 

Anakin Skywalker = DARTH Vader
Count Dooku = DARTH Tyranus
Palpatine = DARTH Sidious

Every character has his "good" and "evil" form, that's just it , no clones, no evil-twins...

 

See, there's something that gets over looked with the two different places at the same time theory. Ever heard of "later on?"

Follow me for a moment. Dooku leaves Genosis after the final duel. He has a head start towards Courscant. The Jedi don't follow him. They stay to claim the dead, tend to the wounded and lock down Genosis with the clones. Thus, Dooku arrives at Courscant hours before the Jedi get there. He meets with Darth Sidious/Chancellor Palpatine at the rendevozus (sp). By the time the Jedi return to Courscant, it's most likely a day or two later. Why you ask? Simple. 1. They have to make sure everyone is ok. That includes making sure that Anakin has his arm attached and in good health. And Obi-wan sat in the Bacta Tank to tend to his wounds. By the time they get to Courscant, everyone has healed up. 2. Enough time for Anakin to take Padme and the droids to Naboo and arrange the wedding.

Now, when we see the Jedi Temple meeting, time has passed again. Enough for the Jedi to speak to the Senate and Palpatine about the Battle of Genosis and what Obi-wan discovered on Kamino. This allows Palpatine to send out the clones to fight in the war. So, when we see the finale with our heroes, there has been a time shift or two. ESB did it with Luke's training and the finale. AOTC is no different.

 

Totally agree Darth-Sinister ! I would say just the same

 

my apologies, disco. i misread.
i believe that tmp and aotc give the ONLY clues to palps' true nature.
sure, sids says that amidala's aggressive move is unexpected, because he doesn't expect it. not in that degree. he expected something different.
the fact that sids would even know anything about amidala's personality is a big hint right there.
he clearly states that he has the senate bogged down in procedure, and then he tells amidala that the chancellor has no true power. true, this seems a little vague of a clue, but we see no evidence of a connection between sids and anyone else in the senate.
plus we can't dismiss cinematic hints, such as close ups on palpatine when he makes those evil faces, and the fact that sidious hasn't been established as a stand-alone character, where palpatine has. remember, we're watching these to learn how the emperor rose to power, and how anakin became vader, and i can't believe that a character who hasn't been fully established can become the evilest guy in the galaxy.
truly, the part at qui-gon's funeral when mace asks, 'but which one did we kill?' and then the close-up on palpatine is a strong suggestion in favor in the argument that sids=palps.
remember, this is a fantasy movie, not a who-dunnit flick.
aotc gives even more clues, including many i've already stated, cinematic clues include yoda's questioning glance, and palps' taunting question, answsered by 'the dark side clouds everything.'
anyway, i think i've stated the rest of the clues many times throughout this board. i'm sure there's a way to look up my posts if you're interested. i don't feel much like repeating myself more than i already have, except to reiterate that in a movie, cinematic clues mean as much as dialogue.
in the scene at the end with the troopers marching into star destroyers we have palpatine looking regally over the balcony to the music of the imperial march, and as the camera cranes up from a low angle to a high angle the imperial guards are revealed standing behind the scene, as a premonition of what's to come.
only bail organa looks uncomfortable as he looks down at the balcony sadly.

 

One more thing to add.

Darth Sidious has to play like he is Darth Sidious, not Senator Palpatine. When he talks to Nute about Padme doing something unexpected, you must remember something. If he lets on that he knows what she's going to do, he will bust himself. Nute and Rune would have one more clue to his identity. Palpatine didn't expect that Maul would die and that the Gungans would side with the Naboo. Having a dual identity, Palpatine must play them as truely being seperate. That includes watching what you say, that could incriminate you.

 

But if everything is always as he has "forseen" wouldn't he be able to see what Padme's intentions were as Darth Sidious without giving away he is also Palpatine?

Besides, the TF has no way of knowing that Palpatine even knew Padme was returning to Naboo, so any hint that Sidous knew she was coming there wouldn't give it away. If he can forsee everything he wouldn't have been surprised by her actions.