PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

Good points darth-sinister.

AeroAngel- again you are using TOS to prove that Palpatine becomes the Emperor BUT NOT Palpatine is Sidious as your concluding statements says. There is no evidence at TOS saying anything like that. They only tie together the name "Palpatine" to the Emperor but don't tie either to the name "Sidious".

 

Disco_dooku

But if everything is always as he has "forseen" wouldn't he be able to see what Padme's intentions were as Darth Sidious without giving away he is also Palpatine?

Besides, the TF has no way of knowing that Palpatine even knew Padme was returning to Naboo, so any hint that Sidous knew she was coming there wouldn't give it away. If he can forsee everything he wouldn't have been surprised by her actions.

Yoda clearly states in ESB that the future is constantly changing, and therefore difficult to see. I think (therefore I could be wrong) that when the Emperor says that things have transpired as he forsaw, he means that every reaction has worked out to his advantage. I believe that regardless of the outcome, Palpatine/Sidious get what he/they want. A positive reaction regardless of the outcome. One could look at TPM and AOTC and say that nothing seems to be working toward Pal/Sid's favor, and if fact often everything usually is working against him/them, but in the end he/they still get what he/they want.
If they are one person or two doesn't really matter if you start to see the overall flow of events in relation to the final outcome. Palpatine/Sidious have figured out how to navigate the flow of events and even change their course...all toward a final goal of galactic rule. Even if something doesn't go his/their way, like any good politician, he/they have learned to slant the facts in their favor...only in this case through the use of the Dark Side.

 

This is not "proof" in ANY sense, but if Palpatine is clearly, unambiguously, without question MEANT to be Sidious, and if we are meant to know that, why hasn't GL simply included a scene to remove any doubt? I mean, it would be easy enough, no? ONE scene of Palpatine donning the robe and cowl, or doffing it?

I think we are all going to have a LOT to talk about after Episode III. In some ways, that movie is going to really show us just how much depth there is behind this saga. You look at this board and you see so much clever and involved debate and speculation, so many instances where we fans are projecting depth and subtlety into what we see... is it there? Time will tell.

I think this will be certainly true when it comes down to the Palpatine/Sidious issue. If Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same, I would love to see GL explain why, in TPM and AOTC, he didn't simply come out and SHOW that. What is gained by NOT letting the audience in on this, if NOT to fuel speculation? UNWANTED speculation, if we are to believe that Lucas already intends us to KNOW that Palpatine IS Sidious.

For one, I have to believe that even if Palpatine and Sidious ARE one and the same, GL wants that to be ambigious until EP III....

Shadow

 

Since a lot of people are using TOS's bio of Palpatine as a defense I thought I would take a look at it.

Question #1: If GL has stated that they are the same, which some say he has and some say he hasn't, why does TOS list them separately? Surely if GL is the final word they can be combined into one entry?

Question #2: In the Sidious bio, it never mentions the name Palpatine, nor any connection to Palpatine. Now, if it again is gospel according to GL why not mention it ( it is already out in the open, there would be no reason to still hide anything or keep it a mystery)? Supposedly we "already" know they are one in the same, why not write about it?

Question #3: In the Palpatine bio there are 11 paragraphs. The first 8 refer to him as "Palpatine" the 9th refers to him as both "Palpatine and Emperor" and the last 2 refer to him as the "Emperor". Now why list him as both in paragraph 9 when, at the start of the paragraph he is already Emperor, there is no need to use both names, unless they are not the same.

Here is the paragraph:
During the Galactic Civil War, Palpatine ruled
with an iron fist. He disbanded the Imperial
Senate, and passed control down to the
regional governors and the military. During
the Hoth campaign, Palpatine expressed to
Vader his concerns over Luke Skywalker, a
young Rebel powerful in the Force. Vader
suggested that the two convert the youth to
the dark side of the Force, an idea the
Emperor seconded.

Let's break it down:
Palpatine ruled with an iron fist- He is already the Emperor, why not call him that?

Palpatine expressed to Vader his concerns over Luke Skywalker- Again, still the Emperor, why not call him that?

To me, here is the key sentence:
Vader suggested that the two (referring to him and Palpatine) convert the youth to the dark side of the Force, an idea the Emperor seconded (why not say "an idea Palaptine seconded"? Why change to "the Emperor" now when you have yet to use that name regarding this particular subject?).

Now, why would the Emperor, who is in complete control of everything have to "seconded" a suggestion from his apprentice? He has the final say on everything. You only offer to seconded something if you are going to vote or take action on it. Clearly all the Emperor had to do was "agree" with Vader, why seconded it? There is no need. Unless there was a third party there that might disagree.

Example: I go with my girlfriend to dinner, I say we are going to the Red Lobster, she agrees, she doesn't seconded my idea.....now if we are going out as a group, then my idea would have to be seconded.....see?

There is more to this relationship than meets the eye. If it was so cut and dry, TOS wouldn't list them seperately, but they DO, why? Not to keep it a mystery, because GL and RM "supposedly" told us already.

BTW, TOS isn't the only place licensed by LFL that lists them separately, the new Essential Guide to Characters does as well.

 

Listen to what you (anyone who doesnt believe Palpy=Sid) are saying. You are saying that it is too cut and dry and it would be too obvious that Palpy=Sidious. Yet, we are here arguing whether Palpy=Sidious. Obviously it is not that simple if you are doubting it. GL has done his job by simply not revealing Palpy as Sidious. Hes got a lot of people doubting it, huh.

 

grasping at straws here. (disco)

 

The Red Lobster angle seems weak. I think (and again I could be wrong) that Vader was conflicted about his son, which Luke sensed and therefore he wanted the Emperor to spare Luke...Now bear with me...The emperor tells Vader that it will take them both to turn Luke...it is the first time the Emperor changes his plan completely, which is why he came to his downfall. Vader was still being influenced by the Light, which Luke says hasn't been driven from him completely, and therefore the light side is stronger. I don't think it is because the Emperor is a different person. It is an instance of him being blinded by his own lust for power and Vader's feelings about his son.

Vader still kneels before the Emperor, and calls him master. And it really isn't a seconding, but rather he seems to be agreeing as if it now will fit into a new plan, ie Luke replaces Vader.

The inflection of the Emperor isn't someone submissive to Vader, but rather one of superiority.

VADER
What is thy bidding, my master?

EMPEROR
There is a great disturbance in
the Force.

VADER
I have felt it.

EMPEROR
We have a new enemy - Luke
Skywalker.

VADER
Yes, my master.

EMPEROR
He could destroy us.

VADER
He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no
longer help him.

EMPEROR
The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER
If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR
Yes. Yes. He would be a great
asset. Can it be done?

VADER
He will join us or die, my
master.

 

EMPEROR
You have done well, Lord Vader. And now I
sense you wish to continue your search for
young Skywalker.

VADER
Yes, my Master.

EMPEROR
Patience, my friend. In time he will seek you
out. And when he does, you must bring him
before me. He has grown strong. Only together
can we turn him to the dark side of the
Force.

VADER
As you wish.

EMPEROR
Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen


This isn't someone who is seconding the apprentice, but rather like any bloated ego ruler the idea is now his...not Vader's.

 

You are correct.

Also, regarding keeping it as secret. It's called dramatic tension. By revealing the truth in full, we see how it worked. Remember, we doubted that Vader was Anakin for 3 years until ROTJ.

Same with Dooku telling us that the Senate is controled by Darth Sidious. Though many of us know that is true, there still are people who don't know and didn't catch on. In ANH and throughout ESB, we are given clues to Vader=Anakin. We just didn't catch on until it was too late.

 

Palpatine has to be Sidious if only for this dramatic moment in Episode III:

After Obi-Wan apparently kills Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan finally meet up with the Sith Lord who has been orchastrating the demise of the Republic. The hooded figure stands with his back to the two Jedi, calmly overlooking the destruction he has brought about.

"The game is over!" says Obi-Wan.

Yoda looks on with a puzzled expression but says nothing.

The hooded figure slowly turns to face the two.

"My dear Master Kenobi. Even now the truth escapes. The game is not over, as you say. It has just begun."

The Sith Lord slowly moves into the light and stands for a moment before slowly raising his hands and carefully pulling the hood to reveal his face. It is none other than Supreme Chancellor Palpatine!

"You! You're the Sith Lord?" says Obi-Wan, shock and confusion clearly showing on his face.

"Suspected you I did, but too late am I in seeing the truth," says Yoda with a sad shake of his head.

Obi-Wan and Yoda both ignite their sabers and charge at the Sith Lord, but his powers prove too great for them to overcome and they barely escape with their lives. They realize they can not defeat the Sith, so they agree to go into hiding until an opportunity presents itself.

----------

That scene would be sweet.

 

Darth_OlsenTwins- I have not said that it is cut and dry that Palpy=Sidous. I have said that the people who are using GL's "quote" that they are the same are trying to make it cut and dry. If GL has said they are the same, then come out and say so on TOS, and end this discussion.

Tell me how insinuating, in two movies, that they are the same and then reveal in EPIII that they are indeed the same, has any real impact to the viewer? When the hood comes off and you see that they are the same, it isn't a surprise or revelation, it is more like......."Gee I already knew that, why the build-up or mystery?" But if the hood comes off and he is something different or someone different, that would be a nice twist.

That would be like seeing Vader in ANH, ESB and ROTJ with his helmet on and assuming he is a man, then when the helmet comes off we find out that he is nothing more than a robot. That would be a huge twist on what we were lead to believe, much like is the case now.

Like I said before, I can go either way on this subject, I have argued for and against this, but what irks me is the fact that people come on here and dismiss the "theory" outright claiming it can't be true cuz GL said so, which is not the case, but offer no other evidence to support their claim.

I like theorizing, and most on here are good, some are really far-fetched but that doesn't matter. All I have to say if just keep an open mind before you summarily dismiss this idea or any others.

EDIT: As for my using TOS as a reference rather than the movies like LarsLars did, that was just to show that you can read into what you want anything that TOS posts. LarsLars used the best source to make his very good point, the movies.

Nice thoughts Durwood... But is that dramatic effect for the audience or for the story? Or both?

 

Thank you Disco_dooku
I really like all the opinions (and they are opinions) here. It is really cool to see how different people view things. I am not cool however with those who seem dead-set one way or another, and like to tear down others opinion with unqualified statements, like "that is crap" etc. Make a researched argument before you jump down someone's throat. The person you insult did THEIR research... Now who's full of crap, research or insults? I think we know the truth. Regardless, somebody's going to be disapointed when EPIII comes out, no doubt, but I think GL will surprise everyone.

Soapbox Time...
Also, is it really about what surprises the viewer, or rather the reaction of the characters in the movie...if Palp does not = Sid then how is that a surprise to the characters in the movie? It isn't. They assume that now. The shock comes from what they don't know, not what they do know. It has very little to do with us at all.

Sorry I had to get it out.

 

Come on LarsLars, that's CRAP!

 

To the genious who thinks Darth Sidious and Palpatine are not the same person. At the end of Episode I is the give away that they are one and the same. Samuel L. Jackson and Yoda are having a convo in which they say the where there is a Sith there is a Master...Samuel L. then says but which one died...the Sith or the Master? The camera then sweeps the room to the so well known profile view of Senator Palpatine and the darkside music begins....there is your hint buddy. Further in Episode V...if you listen the Emperor is referred to as Emperor Darth Sidious you dumb I wish I could say it. Also in the first Episode he plays both sides so he can gain control of both sides in order to start the clone war. If you read the books and listen to Lucas in interviews you will find that the whole purpose of the clone wars are so Palpatine can become Emperor. Also your comment about Palpatine not having urgency to the dark side...what about his conversation with Anakin...telling him he needs no guidance and what not....watch the movies and then come back with something worth while.

 

The tread has mentioned that before, but thanks for bringing up again. GL may just be using this as misdirection. Who knows...it may be a visual reference that Palpatine knows which one was killed...not that he IS "the master" or "the apprentice". For us the true fans who know the storyline inside and out, it could be misdirection. For those who don't know star wars (my sister didn't get that Palp and the Emperor were as GL says "the same person") that scene doesn't infer that they're the same at all...just a thought.

 

Lars Lars is right, Palpy not being Sidious adds less dramatic effect than if they are the same. I simply dont understand what the purpose of them being different people is? This adds nothing that is pertinent to the story. It matters not to the characters and it would serve no purpose except that it would need to be explained.

PS I just watched ROTJ with my nephews for the first time after AOTC came out. Its so much better

 

Big hint IF they are not the same person(and I have pointed this out in another thread): AotC: Obi-Wan visits the cloning facility on Kamino, viewing them with Taun-We from a balcony. End of AotC: Palpatine is viewing the loading of the clones onto ships(along with a few senators) from what appears to be the exact same balcony, indicating that they, too, are on Kamino. Simultaneously, Dooku is meeting with Sidious on Coruscant. These scenes are basically back to back, indicating that they are occuring at the same time. That would seem to me to be one of the strongest peices of evidence that they are NOT the same person.

 

First off, did you WATCH any of the scenes from Kamino. They (Palpy and friends) are outside watching the clone army and there is no rain. Also, there are huge buildings in the background showing that it is Coruscant.

If thats your strongest reason, then your proof isnt very good.

 

totally coruscant. not to mention it's at the very earliest the next day. dooku arrives on coruscant around dusk, and the clones get on the ships sometime in the early afternoon.
um, when in empire does anybody ever say emperor darth sidious? i don't remember ever hearing that.

 

Maverick1115- "Further in Episode V...if you listen the Emperor is referred to as Emperor Darth Sidious"

I have seen ESB many, many times and have never heard that. Nor have I heard anyone but you mention it. Furthermore, this debate has been going on for 3 years now and NO ONE has ever brought that up.

Tell us, where this occurs in ESB.

But from your sarcasm in your opening sentence, I think you pulled that out of thin air.

Can you or anyone support that quote?

Mason- I don't believe that the two scenes occured at the same time, but more like over a few days.

 

Well, perhaps I am mistaken(I sure as hell isn't the first time), but I really believed that that is where they were occuring...of course, I never stopped to think about the rain(although there was no rain when Obi-Wan was viewing them...but then they were inside). I retract my 'theory'(for the time being), although I still firmly believe that we will discover that Palpatine is NOT Sidious. My bad, I blundered, I admit it.....

 

Big Wookiee,

"-Where in the movies does it state that Emperor Palpatine is 1000 years old? Sounds like a nonsensical EU explanation to me."

It isn't as far-fetched as you might think. Let's take the case of Yoda, who is already over 800 years old by the time of the events in AotC. He is clearly a major protagonist in this story, just as Palpatine is clearly a major antagonist. I'm not certain we should always discount information from the Expanded Universe simply because that is the only place the information can be found, especially when there's a mystery a-foot.


"There could have been dozens of Sith lords that have quietly amassed power without the Jedi being aware of it."

Amassing, yes, but not in the same room.

"Palpatine is able to completely mask his presence in the force from the galaxy's most powerful Jedi masters."

Not likely. As I said before, proximity enhances the foci of force eminations.


"Palpatine is able to mask his presence in the Force. "The dark side clouds everything"."

Yes, but in the same room Yoda would likely realize the focal point of the dark side eminations. Masking from afar might work, but in the same room seems unlikely.

"-"Nearly simultaneous" does not mean "simultaneous". And these "entirely different places" are always ON CORUSCANT!"

Are you certain of this?

"-Of course they're going to have different reactions & different information. He's playing one side against the other! He has to say one thing to the senate & the Jedi as Palpatine, otherwise they'll become suspicious of him & threaten his schemes."

This much I was aware of from the outset. However, there were a few valid points made earlier concerning this subject that I thought were noteworthy enough to raise some doubts.


"Obviously he's going to say the opposite as Sidious, because he's dealing with the enemies of the Republic. It wouldn't do well for him to tell Nute Gunray "I need to raise a grand army to defeat your forces", now would it?"

Well shucks hun, I ain't shure if'n I can answer this. Ya done outwitted me.

"Gunray & the other Separatists are only there to provide the Republic with a convenient enemy to focus on & solidify his power base. What he wants is to control the Republic & what better way to control them than by rallying them to his side to go to war against a phantom enemy?"

Absolutely. I'm in agreement with your appraisal of this situation.

"The Separatists are merely patsies, and of course they're going to be wiped out, so that none can survive to blow the whistle on his plans for conquest."

Agreed.

"-If you have no additional facts to argue, then this point is unnecsesary."

It isn't unnecessary to me. *toothy grin*

"Sorry, I don't agree. Sidious is Palpatine.
Get used to it."

Awww, do I have to? Sure, he's "EMPEROR" Palpatine. Sidious is only his Sith title. But is he Chancellor Palpatine? I don't think so.

"Dramatically speaking, the story wouldn't work any other way."

Hey, if the jedi (including Yoda) have been sitting in the same chamber with a Sith Lord for the past ten years, the story definitely won't work.

-Undomiel
"Blow me to Bermuda!" -- Merlin, Sword in the Stone

 

I have an insight on something that I came across in TPM novelization. Yes, I know that novelizations are not canon, but since they are based on "the screenplay and story by GL" they have to be considered very close to canon or the next step down.

There is a passage on page 320 that occurs "later that night" after Qui Gon's funeral.

"That night Darth Sidious stood alone on a balcony........Darth Sidious walked to the railing and put his hands on the cool metal." (pages 320-321)

Now, from what all we have seen of Theed, it is mostly built with stone. The buildings are stone, the stairways are stone, even the handrails are stone.

Where am I going with this?

The "cool metal" railing.

Is Darth Sidious on Naboo or Coruscant? We know that Palpatine is on Naboo, he attends the celebration the next day, but it seems that Sidious is described on being on Coruscant. (And yes, I haven't ruled out there being both metal and stone railings on Naboo, but that just stands out of place with the rest of the architecture.)

Now you see why it interests me. If Sidious is indeed on Coruscant, as perhaps, described in the book, then he cannot be Palpatine.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

Nice thoughts Durwood... But is that dramatic effect for the audience or for the story? Or both?

I think the drama works because the audience is let in on something that the main characters don't know about.

It's like Alfred Hitchcock once said about creating tension. If you tell people that a bomb is under the table then it immediately goes off, there is no tension. However, if you tell them there's a bomb under the table then go on to talk about baseball, it creates tension because people know it's there but you are acting oblivious to the fact. So dramatic tension can be created by letting the audience be privy to information that is with held from the protagonists.

In other words, we feel tension for the main characters because we know what is happening or is going to happen yet we are powerless to remedy their ignorance. So while revealing that Sidious is in fact Palpatine may not be a surprise to everybody (though this thread is evidence that even that's not cut and dry) we can emphathize with the main characters and have the viscereal experience of their shock and surprise.

It is for these dramatic reasons that Sidious and Palpatine have to be the same person. There's also the reason I stated earlier that if Palaptine is just a clone, a mindless puppet of the Emperorer, it really neuters his character in the first two episodes and kills the dramatic impact of the films.

What would be more fun: to go back and watch the films knowing that Palpatine is a master manipulator, playing the Jedi right under their noses or that Palpatine is just a mindless clone, a character of no consequence in the long run? Clearly the former is the most desirable, and I bet Lucas agress.

 

I have an insight on something that I came across in TPM novelization. Yes, I know that novelizations are not canon...

Not to mention that most of them are trash literature and poorly written. The proof you offer could be nothing more than sloppy writing on the part of the author.