PROOF: Palpatine IS NOT Sidious. (lengthy proof)

HEY! I like Terry Brooks! Don't insult his writing! ..of course, he normally writes purely fantasy....but I digress... As a novel, I thought TPM was a much better book than AotC.

 

"What would be more fun: to go back and watch the films knowing that Palpatine is a master manipulator, playing the Jedi right under their noses or that Palpatine is just a mindless clone, a character of no consequence in the long run?"

Whatever gave you the idea clones are mindless? Have you ever read the Dune Chronicles? And as for no consequence -- well if he can manage to manuever himself into the position of Emperor, I'd say he wasn't of no consequence and in fact, was a dangerous extension of the Sith Master, himself.

I do not view the possibility of Chancellor Palpatine being a clone of Sidious as a poor plot device. In fact, it adds an additional dimension to the story and a believability that wouldn't be present otherwise. I realize, at this point in the story, Lucas is trying to show the mechanics and causation of the jedi purge, but I doubt he would destroy several decades of data on force powers just so Palpy could hide immediately under the noses of the jedi. It seems rather ludicrous, in fact. It would, however, be believable if the real sith master were not present but "represented" by his clone.

 

Listen to the audio commentary on the TPM DVD. When Sidious first appears Lucas says something to the like of "There's the Emperor" and goes on to explain that the wanted to introduce him in the same way he was introduced in ESB.

So all we really need to find out is whether or not Palpatine is the Emperor.

The databank at TOS makes it quite clear that the Emperor and Palpatine are the same person: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/index.html

That's all I have to say.

 

You're right. That database entry makes it unequivocally clear that the mild-mannered Senator from Naboo is the very same person that rules the galaxy and zaps Luke with Force lightning.

Enough. Together we can end this destructive conflict and restore order to this forum.

 

Holy crap!!! I can't believe people are still arguing about this. He's freaking the same guy. And I haven't read all the posts, but if you have said, well what about their different names, then look at Count Dooku. He is called Lord Tyrannus by Sidious...

 

The keyword in this instance is "Emperor". Chancellor Palpatine is NOT the Emperor, yet. Who knows what will happen between AotC and ANH. See, Lucas never says, "Chancellor Palpatine" or "Senator Palpatine" is "Darth Sidious." You will only find instances where it says "Emperor Palpatine" is the "Emperor" or "Palpatine" is "Sidious" or "Emperor Palpatine" is "Sidious", but never does it mention that the current identity of that manipulative politician we all currently know as "Chancellor Palpatine" [or knew as "Senator Palpatine", is indeed the same person as "Emperor Palpatine." And remember "From a certain point of view"? Nothing is quite what it seems in these films.

Now I could be ALL wrong about this, but the fact there are enough holes at this point to raise suspicions, makes me wonder. There is also the discrepancy in force powers that begs an explanation. How could a Sith Master, no matter how powerful, hide under the noses of the entire Jedi Council for many, many years without so much as one slip-up? Do you honestly believe Lucas is going to portray ALL the jedi as that inept and insignificant in comparison to the Sith Master? Perish the thought!

-Undomiel

 

How could the Chosen One not know Leia was a Jedi in waiting? How come the Jedi didn't know Maul was going to attack at Tatooine or at Naboo?

Yoda: I sense the dark side in you.

Beware the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate, you will.

Palpatine could do that. I think it has to do with your emotions. We can't take stock in the eu, because Lucas always adds something to his stories. Yoda could feel the anger, hate and agression in Dooku. But Palpatine kept control of his emotions. Same with Maul. The Sith remained hidden for a 1,000 years. None of them knew that a Sith Lord had been able to control the Senate or erase Kamino. We've only seen the Skywalker line and Obi-wan detect each other.

Also consider,

Vader: My son is with them.

Palpatine: Are you sure?

Vader: I have felt him.

Palpatine: Strange that I haven't.


Palpatine didn't feel Luke, but Vader could. Yet, Palpatine could feel Luke through the Force during his training on Dagobah.

 

Will somebody please explain to me why the starwars.com site lists Palpatine's height as 1.73 meters and Darth Sidious' height as 1.78 meters? Clearly, they are different people physically unless this is an egregious oversight.

 

Ok, I have something that may or my not prove that Palpatine=Sidious. I read in this thread or another, I am not sure, that TPM DVD mentions something difinitive about Sidious=Emperor Palpatine.

On TPM DVD audio commentary GL states that he wanted to introduce Darth Sidious as a hologram because he wanted to maintain a thematic device that he first created in ESB. GL states that we see Darth Sidious the same way we saw HIM in ESB, as a hologram. That seems pretty clear cut and supports billydeewilliams duality theory.

Now we have these equations:

Senator Palpatine = Emperor Palpatine (GL and TOS)
Darth Sidious = Emperor Palpatine (GL on TPM DVD)

Using the math rule (I forget the actual name) A=B, B=C, then A must equal C. Right?

Therefore, if:
Sen. Palpatine (A)= Emperor Palpatine (C)
Darth Sidious (B) = Emperor Palpatine (C)

Then Sen. Palpatine (A) MUST equal Darth Sidious (B)

Follow that? Any holes?

 

If it turns out that Palpatine and Sidious aren't the same man, then I will very surprised. If they aren't the same man, then that could very well imply that Sidious is controlling Palpatine. But how could he do this?

Nay! Sidious is Palpatine. Namely because the fact that Sidious is seen on Coruscant in TPM and AOTC with Sith apprentices gives it all away! He's in control of the Senate as Palpatine, which Darth Sidious is only seen to us(the audiance), and very few others, but not the good guys.

 

Ok... people... stop it already.

Lucas has stated enough times that Sidious is Palpatine. Why can't you just take his word for it?

RB

 

THE DATABASE CLEARLY STATE>>>>>>>.....




There is nothing clear about the data base...IT SAYS Palpatine is the Sidious....SO YOU ALL SAY.....well thats the end of that .......Then it say that they are different hights....Why accept one piece of imformation as fact and not another ........open your minds








If Palpatine is a clone of sidious.....they are still the same person....Lucaas will not give this seceret away in the database....








Eg..The Database said Count Dooku was and Ex jedi who now lead the seperatists.....Not untill after the movie did it ever state he was a Sith Lord.




Lucas will not tell you Palps is a clone before the movie is out think aboutit.



You also say lucas sated that sidious and palpatine are the same person.....If they are clones this is true in more than one way.





open you minds....WITH YOU ALWAYS WHAT CAN NOT BE DONE

 

OK...
Just a few things to get us started again. Arguments based on sources other than the movies themselves should be discounted as second hand information. Like hearing an event through someone else mouth. Everyone who writes anything about star wars who isn't GL himself (and even GL until its on film before us in theaters)...is nothing more than a second hand source. Even the novelizations of the movies are filled with discrepancies. If you take an event and have four people witness it, you will get four different interpretations of what happened (just like our arguments here), therefore the only source that can be used to support or discount any theory is the actual events themselves. Period. Basing conjecture on the "theory" of "force emminations" is going outside actual events to information that is provided by someone other than the primary source. Where in the movies does it say that there must be some way to detect the force...nowhere, but there are several instances of a person not being sensed, that's a fact. Same thing with the 1.73 vs. 1.78 meter theory. TOS is full of information to enhance the primary source, ie the films. It is not there to replace the primary source. Plus most of that is just written by the "geeks" (no offense) so that people who actually care how tall someone is in a movie won't wet themselves trying to figure it out by counting pixels from the bottom of the screen multiplying that by the angle of the camera and comparing that to a table top height...blah blah blah blah. Anything in books taking place after ROTJ can be discounted entirely. GL may have "officially sanctioned" books that came later, but he in no way is bound to their information...at all! GL could tell everyone in any interview he gives that they are the same person (palp/sid)...until it is shot digitally and placed before us in 2005, we have nothing but speculation either way...(remember he wasn't sure in the original films if 1. Darth Vader was really going to be Luke's father, and if 2. Leia and Luke were going to be related). He can say whatever he wants anytime before the movies and you can look at it and say "that's nice". Until you see it...it ain't the truth...ie the primary source. Drop all the EU right out of this discussion...it has no bearing whatsoever...it enhances, it does not replace.

Just my thoughts.
-LL

 

Saurion-Fett- If GL won't tell us that Palpatine is a clone until EPIII, then why did he authorize an entire 3-part comic series dedicated to it? Not to mention allowing a action figure to be made.

 

Don't summarly rule out the EU because it isn't canon. GL has included TWO parts of the EU in AOTC. Who says he doesn't pay attention to it??

 

I don't dismiss it at all in fact on page 23 of this tread I wrote this...check and see if you want...

That is not true, when Dark Empire first came out GL was so impressed with the storyline that he purchased quite a few copies for friends and relatives as christmas gifts. He does absorb some of the material written, but he does not have to answer to it. That is a distinction that has been missed in the discussion of what is or is not canon. GL is the "Creator" of the Star Wars universe, he doesn't have to answer to anything but the laws he himself has set up. Many would like to see him stay true to everything outside the movies, but that's his perogative. He has said he writes these movies for himself primarily. He doesn't answer to you or me...thankfully. So if Sidious=Palpatine or not, is ultimately up to him, and what his vision of the Star Wars Saga is. Not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome...that is obvious, but I think he will pull it all together and we'll be surprised regardless.

EDIT: and I said it enhances the story...not that it should be ignored...but if you're going to theorize...go to the source not to other peoples work.

 

Sorry LarsLars, that really wasn't intended for you or anyone specific but more as a general warning not to dismiss it so quickly. I think that every little bit of info helps whether it is canon or not, the key is to sift through it and find the mete of the the info. I think that EU provides some extra "insight" into certain subjects.

 

My apologies as well Disco_dooku. I agree that sifting through everything can be helpful, but ultimately there is only one source that matters, the movies themselves. They're the highest authority on the Star Wars myth. They cannot be refuted, all other sources can be. And it especially interesting that people like to mention "discrepancies" in the EU as support for their arguments...they could just be mistakes. Any "discrepancy" in the movies causes us to come here and discuss them, and those are the ones that GL needs to address...not the ones elsewhere.

Here's an interesting thought too. If Palp does not = Sid and it's a huge secret why leave "obvious" hints on TOS, (height, different listings, etc.)? GL would want that one wrapped up tight as a drum I think. More like they're just errors and oversights on the part of the editors of the webpage. On the other hand maybe they are hints...who knows?

 

Maybe they are there to have us do exactly what we are doing now.....speculating. Keeps our interest alive.

 

I stand squarely behind the theory of both possibilities...Could be two people, might be one person. I am open to all theories, otherwise I will be disapointed one way or the other in 2005...and I don't want to be disappointed.

 

i visit http://www.supershadow.com a good bit (the author of the site is famous for getting the script for e2 early on and is friends with lucas-supposedly.)

it states in his faq that palp and sid are the same person. i suppose some would say it doesn't hold more truth than anything else, but i can't help but have *some* faith that ss knows his stuff its a great site too (for those who haven't seen it, check it out!)

 

To make an end to those 'the last scenes of AOTC happen on the same time'-discussions:

INT. CORUSCANT, SECRET LANDING PLATFORM - DAWN
The ramp lowers. COUNT DOOKU emerges and walks to where the hooded figure of DARTH SIDIOUS stands waiting. COUNT DOOKU bows.

EXT. CORUSCANT, JEDI TEMPLE - SUNSET
The beautiful temple basks in the red glow of the setting sun.

EXT. CORUSCANT, MILITARY STAGING AREA, BALCONY - LATE DAY
PALPATINE, JAR JAR, BAIL ORGANA and the OTHER SENATORS, with TWO ROYAL
GUARDS, stand looking down at the square below.

EXT. NABOO LAKE RETREAT, LODGE, GARDEN - LATE DAY
In a rose-covered arbour overlooking the sparkling late, ANAKIN and PADME
stand before a NABOO HOLY MAN.

Looks like Sidious had time enough to change clothes

 

The different heights are simple. It's part of the manipulation of the facts. That they are the same, but throw out some curve balls for those who don't know.

Also about DE. That was done simply for fun. It would have no bearing on what he was going to do. Whether or not Sidious cloned Palpatine, was not influenced by that, but by his notes for the PT.

 

Disco Dooku, your logic is correct. Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. There is no friggin' way that Palps is a clone or a twin, it just doesn't make sense. Every argument I've heard for them being two people has major holes in it. All of the real evidence points to them being one and the same.

 

Here, here.