PT Qui-Gon Jinn: Agent of the Dark Side?

That’s why I stand with the view Darth means Dark Lord. Its a lot easier to say Darth Vader than Dark Lord Vader.

 

A version which was not aired - instead the actual version was. Not even a "deleted scene", but an alternate, unused script.

Imperial minions always use Lord, never Darth. Even Palpatine uses "Lord' not "Darth" in most conversations with Vader or Maul. Only those high enough to think they can order him around, use just "Vader".

Needa: "I will assume full responsibility for losing, and apologise to Lord Vader"
Ozzel: "Lord Vader, the fleet has moved out of hyperspace and is beginning to-"
Motti: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader"
Tarkin: "Vader, release him"
Tarkin: "I'm taking an awful risk, Vader."
Palpatine: "You have done well, Lord Vader."
Palpatine: "Lord Maul, be mindful."

Rebels and Jedi always use Darth, or just Vader, and almost never Lord:

Obi-Wan: "You can't win, Darth."
Leia: "Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold."
Luke: "Vader's on that ship"

Among Jedi, only Yoda calls Sidious, Lord Sidious, once, but not to his face.

Possibly "Lord" is too respectful a title for the good guys to use to enemies they despise, and "Darth" too informal a title for minions to use.

 

Legends is a source, the Darth title was explored in Legends only.. you can’t ignore Legends to even discuss it.

 

Irrelevant, it's information that was established in the script that was simply not used because of the plot, not because it isn't true or because it's something else.

So what? Why are you assuming that disproves my point? Are you even understading what I'm saying? Darth Vader, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus are Sith Lords. Hence why they are named Darth and why they are referred to as Lord Vader, Lord Sidious, Lord Maul, Lord Tyranus when called by their title of Lord.

Again, irrelevant. Using "title + last name" or "first name + last name" varies with the circumstances. Just like how people are adressed in the real world varies with the circumstances. It varies depending on what they are saying, to whom they are saying and how they are saying.

Same as above.

Darth is a forename, not a title.

Of course I can ignore it, and Legends is not a source. The source is George Lucas, who actually invented the Sith and the name Darth. He knows what it is and what it isn't.

 

And "Singh" is used as a surname and a middle name - but it's closer to being a title than anything else:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singh

As a surname or a middle name, it is now found throughout the world across communities and religious groups, becoming more of a title than a surname.[6]

Just as Singh means "lion" it's possible that Darth may mean "dark lord."

Hence, avoidance of using "Darth" and "Lord" at the same time - redundancy.

 

Doesn't really matter what "Singh" is and how it's used. "Darth" is still just a forename of the Sith while "Lord" is their title. There's no avoidance, it's simply not how one usually adresses in a formal manner people with a title, specially the title of Lord. It's not "title + first name", it's "title + last name".

"Darth" does come from the word "dark", but that's just the inspiration, not it's meaning. It doesn't mean "dark lord" either.

 

According to Legends it does, according to Newcanon it does, and George Lucas has never actually stated what it does mean. So nobody can say for sure that "it doesn't mean dark lord".

This is why guessing at "Lucas's headcanon" can be a bit pointless when Lucas hasn't stated something unambiguously.

It's "King Charles" not "King Windsor".

Or "Kaiser Wilhelm, not Kaiser Hohenzollern".

"Title & surname" is not a hard and fast rule.

 

It's a name. It doesn't mean anything. Like Greedo doesn't mean anything. It's inspired by the word "greed", which does mean something. And that meaning informs the character. Like wise, "Darth" comes from the word "dark", but doesn't mean "dark". All Sith are dark lords. Dark Lords of the Sith. Sith Lords.

There's nothing ambiguous about it. He flat out wrote that it's a forename. And that never changed. And there's no "Lucas's headcanon". That's an oxymoron. He's the creator.

No, that's why you can't jump to the conclusion that just because it's never said "Lord Darth Vader" that "Lord" and "Darth" mean the same thing. Because they don't and they aren't.

And I was very careful with my words, hence:

"There's no avoidance, it's simply not how one usually adresses in a formal manner people with a title, specially the title of Lord."

"Lord" as a title usually goes with the last name, not the forename. You can go sweep the internet for exceptions all you want, the reality doesn't change.

 

so uhhm...

I wonder what Qui-Gon's Sith name would be

 

Darth Jinn, Jinn is an evil spirit in the Middle East. Jinn is Genie, but they are tricksters, and wicked.

Wait.. that’s Qui-Gon’s last name.. he is a Sith!

 

Jinn are all over the moral spectrum in folklore and religion - Ifrit/Efreet seem to be a more sinister variant of Jinn.

So - Darth Ifrit or Darth Efreet?

 

He would be Darth Shade. That line to Padawan Liam was a clue all along...

 

Darth Ifrit, freet looks too much like feet.

 

I think Qui-Gon was more of a grey Jedi than most would admit. But that's part of why I like him. I like the EU Qui-Gon because he balances that moral ambiguity so well and yet comes out wise and experienced. He was my favorite character in Cloak of Deception.

 

My Gray Jedi Master @greyjedi125 is inclined to agree, and am I usually.

However, Jedi beliefs were that when a Jedi dies they become one with the Force and lose their individuality, personality, and unique soul. Now some could argue that was a dogma that was wrong like, “once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny,” and Force Ghosts show that being One with The Force means the Dead who really are part of Living Force everywhere in totality, can travel wherever The Force is.

Qui-Gon’s training under Dooku is curious. For Lord Tyranus was clearly delving into the dark side while still training Padawan Qui-Gon in “Justice,” Qui-Gon seems to resist the dark allure, but he then becomes obsessed much later with Anakin being The Chosen One, when Ani not only becomes Darth Vader, but wipes out much of the Jedi at the Temple and trains Inquisitors to hunt down Jedi. Qui-Gon’s faith brought forth an Agent of Evil.

 

Qui-Gon met Serenity some time before the Naboo blockade, who put him through the trials like Yoda, which is what lead him to Anakin. Anakin wasn’t destined to turn. He made a choice.

Regarding Lord vs Darth, the OT end credits list Vader as Lord Darth Vader. I believe Maul was the same way.

 

Daritha or Darth means “Dark Lord” Lord is a shortening of in galactic basic. It can mean Emperor in Rakatan, but it is generally accepted as meaning dark lord and lord by extension.

 

Lucas didn't give two anal expulsions about that. He probably didn't even know that was written.

 

Lucas is not god of lore, lore evolves. But if you must habe Lucas’ blessing, he gave consent to EU which shaped the darth/ daritha title more fully and which Disney despite KK’s claims of starting a new, has been kept in tact.

 

Lucas was the last word on everything. The EU had no bearing on his work. And currently, newcannon has been contradicted by new material. See the finale of TOTJ. Lucas specified what was in the end credits for the films he worked on. Lord Dark Lord of the Sith Vader makes no sense.

 

Lord and Darth are interchangeable, you can say Darth Vader or Lord Vader, because Darth means dark lord or lord for short. Its like if I want to call someone Bishop or Overseer, Bishop & Overseer mean the same thing; one requires some more churchy knowledge to grasp, the other does not.

Daritha/ Darth in EU has not been contradicted in the NU. “If it ain't broke don’t fix it.” Lots of EU stuff is coming into New Canon, Ulic Qel Droma is canon now in stain glass, Force Healing, Force Maelstrome, and more are all EU brought into NU & NC: Darth being Dark Lord or Lord, short for Dark Lord of the Sith is carrying over too because it makes sense.

 

Nobody invented the word "Darth" you can find it all over in some Baltic Church books in the 1700s/1800s. It was the way some of the Baltic German scribes wrote Darte (which is basically, in more English terms, Dorothy ).

 

That maybe, but Darte is not close to Daritha or Darth in spelling. The current canon is it means “dark lord.”

 

No, he even taught Yoda and others how to force ghost. Ironically, the path to immortality of a more free sort ended up being a light-side only thing. Sith and such could only become haunts.

 

Ahem Darth Marr became a Force Ghost because though he was a Sith Lord he believed the last line of the Jedi Code, “there is no death, there is The Force.”