Qui-Gon Jinn's huge mistake with Anakin

When Obi-Wan became the only guy to kill a Sith in a thousand years, he shot to the head of the class. Hardly any one else was as qualified to take on a padawan. But some guys are better at doing stuff than teaching it.

Obi-Wan indirectly referred to Anakin as 'another pathetic life-form.' He sensed the boy was dangerous. But he wanted to honor his master. So, with the Council's acquiescence, he did train Anakin, and it went well for a long time.

Later, visiting from the blue-glo beyond, Ben said that he thought he could train the boy as well as Yoda, but he was wrong. Maybe it was because of this overconfidence that Obi-Wan failed to understand Anakin well enough to protect him and the galaxy.

So, Qui-Gon needed somebody to train this prodigy. His apprentice has just killed Maul and Qui-Gon's got fifteen seconds left. Obi-Wan is a good choice. But if Qui-Gon could have survived, Anakin would have been better off. He cared for Anakin more than Obi-Wan did.

 

And maybe, against all odds, Obi-wan did train Anakin well enough to make the right choices and Anakin just didn't do it.

Why was it his job? If you have 15 seconds to make a decision maybe you shouldn't make it. Life is for the living and dying words should be selected with the utmost care.

I don't know, maybe, maybe not - but we can say without a doubt that Obi-wan sure would have.

Yes, it's not like Obi-wan sacrificed his entire life for Anakin or anything...

 

Okay, again, points numbered 1-7.

In point one, you're just making it a case of Obi-Wan and Yoda versus Qui-Gon, and I could simply make it a case of Qui-Gon versus Yoda and Obi-Wan. I could easily say Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't want Anakin trained, but they weren't listening to the Force, because Qui-Gon told them he should be trained. If the Force meant for Anakin not to be trained, why didn't Qui-Gon feel it? As much as Qui-Gon was against the council's decision that Anakin not be trained, Yoda was against that same council's decision that he be trained. Remember, the council eventually came around to the idea that Anakin should be trained.

As an aside to our discussion with no bearing on what you or I have posted, I've never heard anyone say Yoda was not doing what was best because he disagreed with the council, but I always hear that Qui-Gon was not doing what was best for that very reason.

For point three, I really can only answer with pure speculation, since Lucas doesn't seem to elaborate on the idea that Anakin didn't need to become a Jedi. The next most likely option after Jedi is Sith. I don't know that you do, but I accept as fact that the Sith brought about Anakin's miraculous birth. They knew he was out there somewhere, and whether they did create him or not, what do you think Palpatine's reaction would have been to the report from the Jedi that a young boy who may have been born of the Force is just biding his time on Tatooine? Palpatine would have shown up on Tatooine with bells on. Do you think he would have stopped at manipulating a chance cube? I can't paint a rosier picture of events with Anakin fully indoctrinated into the Sith at a young age.

On point four, how can you say Obi-Wan suffered any more than Qui-Gon or that Qui-Gon suffered any less? While dead, Qui-Gon watched the boy he championed take steps to do all of those things you just described, and then he watched him do them. And if you think Qui-Gon wasn't suffering in watching those events happen (let's not forget he was completely unable to do anything about what he was seeing), then your indictment of Qui-Gon is far greater than what you've said so far. Again, I wouldn't defend someone who felt no suffering in that event.

On points five and seven you talk about waiting and meditating, not following knee jerk reactions. You're incorrect in stating that you believe Qui-Gon's asking Obi-Wan to train Anakin was his greatest mistake. Yes, I'll show an extreme amount of arrogance (and I'll admit to it) to tell you what you think, and I'll duly accept any complaints you make toward me on that issue. Apparently, you believe Qui-Gon's biggest mistake was his entire philosophy. Acting, not thinking, living completely in the moment was everything Qui-Gon was as a Jedi. He would worry and puzzle over the future as soon as up was down and down was up. It just wasn't going to happen.

As for whether or not Yoda and Obi-Wan warmed to Qui-Gon's philosphy by the sequels, there is a great deal of evidence that they did. Obi-Wan's first line of diologue in TPM was about the future, and Qui-Gon admonished him. All throughout TPM if Obi-Wan or Yoda spoke odds were great it was about the future. Qui-Gon didn't care one hair in his beard about the future, though that is not to say he didn't act decisively in the present. His first words in TPM were to lecture Obi-Wan about the here and now. His advice to Anakin was "Remember: concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." I can stop here since you've already said Qui-Gon is rash while Yoda and others go over things at length. Let's look at the original trilogy. Every piece of advice Obi-Wan gives Luke is not to worry about the future. In ANH, Obi-Wan says Luke should let go of his conscious self and act on instinct. I can't see Obi-Wan in Episode I saying "Just wing it. You'll be fine." And Yoda in ESB: he admonished Luke for always looking to the future, that he never had his mind on where he was and what he was doing. All while Luke was preparing to face Vader, Obi-Wan and Yo

 

I didn't say that I'm positive that the Force didn't want Anakin to be trained, I said I'm of the opinion that Obi-wan was not meant to be the one to train him. If Obi-wan wasn't getting "The boy is dangerous" from the Force, where was he getting it? Are you of the opinion that he was just making it up? Then, that indicts him as a poor mentor choice for Anakin right there.

Always in motion is the future. Much changed between the two decisions. Yoda didn't say that he didn't want Anakin trained after Qui-gon's death, he didn't want Obi-wan to train him. I think, at that point in time, Yoda was being pulled towards the training but that stupid promise stood in the way.

All right - let's have this discussion. I'm willing to believe that QG was doing what was best when he insisted Ani be trained but the manner in which he did it was disastrous. First, he should have listened to Obi that maybe the Council would turn Ani down and ask that Ani be excused from hearing the decision. That would have saved Ani from starting his career w/ the Jedi under a cloud of resentment. With Ani absent when QG "kicked Obi to the curb" - he also wouldn't have set up a sibling rivalry dynamic between the two that lasted until Ani's knighting ceremony. ("You're no Qui-gon Jinn!" NICE.)

I do not accept this at all. Why wouldn't they know where he was? If this was so - why not snatch him from birth? Maul was trained from birth. The Sith were unaware of Ani's existance until Qui-gon brought him forth. You don't have to be a Jedi to make a difference - look at Bail; look at Leia.

Well your supposition is that Qui-gon made no mistakes (a point on which, I'm sure, QG agreed); therfore, he had no reason to experience the self-reproach that Obi did. It was this self-blame that, I believe, was Obi's biggest torture. As it is w/ any "parent." Besides if you look at life span, Qui-gon had 60 relatively good years and died a noble death (not at the hands of a "loved one.") Then after death he "suffered" through the 23 years of "darkness." Obi was 38 when his world fell apart, and 59 when he died; he lived almost half of his adult life in acute regret.

I believe there has to be some balance between the two. You cannot live only in the moment (Qui-gon) nor can you live worrying only

 

You're still sidestepping my point. If Obi-Wan and Yoda believe something diametrically opposite of what Qui-Gon believes, they are no more necessarily correct than he is. I'm certain Obi-Wan was sensing danger from the boy through the Force, just as I'm certain that same Force was telling Qui-Gon that he should be trained. They're not mutually exclusive. Obi-Wan was sensing the future; Qui-Gon was looking at the moment.

I concede the point that Yoda was not arguing that Anakin not be trained but that he was arguing Obi-Wan not be the one to train him. But we don't know what Yoda's vote was as to whether or not Anakin would be trained.

I'll allow that we won't be able to get past this point and that this very point may prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this, but if you'll allow me, I am enjoying this conversation, so I'd like to continue.

If Yoda was destined to train Anakin and Qui-Gon messed that up, yes it was a mistake.

Lucas said Yoda would have been able to train Anakin without his falling. Does ability equal destiny? Are we destined to do all that we are capable of doing? I have it within my ability to commit murder, but I hope that means I am not destined to commit murder.

Let's assume Qui-Gon's last words were, "I regret that I have but one life to live for my country," or "But it was so artfully done," or anything other than asking Obi-Wan to swear to train Anakin. I don't picture Yoda being the Jedi to step forward to train him. The first Jedi I see stepping forward to train Anakin would be Obi-Wan. He knew Qui-Gon's greatest wish--possibly his greatest wish in life--was to have Anakin trained as a Jedi. Would the council have agreed to allow this? Obviously they would, because they agreed to allow Obi-Wan to train Anakin otherwise. Was this a good idea? Well, Anakin becomes a black hearted tyrant responsible for the death of untold numbers of innocents. Who would be the second Jedi to step forward to train Anakin? I imagine the second most likely Jedi to step forward to train Anakin would have been Master Dooku. Why? Well, the same reason grandparents often want custody of grandchildren when their parents die. They're watching after their legacy. Would the council have allowed this? At this time, Master Dooku was a respected Jedi, was trained by the most respected Jedi, and trained a respected Jedi who was himself training a respected Jedi. Would this have been a good idea? Well, Dooku became a blackhearted tyrant responsible for the death of untold numbers of innocents.

And let's look at the council Yoda kept on who is to be trained. Did he want Anakin to be trained by Obi-Wan? No. Was he correct in doing so? Well, see the blackhearted tyrant reference above. I have to give the little green guy his due here. Did Yoda want Luke to be trained? No. He had to be convinced by Obi-Wan. Was he correct in not wanting to have Luke trained? Well, Luke brought Darth Vader back to the light (despite the fact Yoda and Obi-Wan both didn't think it possible) and Anakin ended the Sith and balanced the Force. H

 

Qui-Gon put too much faith in his apprentice. Obi-wan was only just a Jedi Knight when Qui-Gon asked Kenobi to train Anakin. Jog my memory: Did Jinn want Obi-wan to train Skywalker, or just for the boy to be trained? If the latter, did Obi-wan misinterpret Jinn's request? But to the point, I think that Obi-wan wasn't ready to train an apprentice, and an undisiplined apprentice at that. Qui-gon should have just wanted him trained, not by Kenobi.

 

i wonder though, if QG didnt find him, would palpatine have?

 

Now that we have common ground, said ground looks like a great place to set the ring back up.

You are saying Qui-Gon's view that Anakin needed to be trained with all expediency should have been (at least) tempered by Obi-Wan's view that Anakin is dangerous, yes? I can make the example of a doctor treating a patient. If the patient has a compound fracture, that bone needs to be set. The doctor knows that in setting that bone, immense pain is going to come to the patient. That pain isn't a message that the bone shouldn't be set. The doctor shouldn't puzzle over whether or not he should set the bone. On a slightly happier note (or at least bittersweet), I could look into the future and tell you that great sadness will come when your child leaves home, but it's not a premonition that he shouldn't leave. If you were to successfully raise your child in such a way that you felt no sadness and loss when he left, I'd argue that you failed in the worst way.

Again, I could bring up Anakin's self-fulfilling visions. The Force showed him the future, and in worrying about that future in the present, he caused that very future. If Anakin had lived in the present, he would have realized he was a dashing hero in the early prime of his life with a sigh-inducingly cute little brunette on his arm, a valiant right-hand 'droid, two little knights in the oven, and a universe full of oppportunities for the future Greatest Force User in the Galaxy. It's this looking to the future that makes me think Anakin was very much more the legacy of Obi-Wan and Yoda than the legacy of Qui-Gon. In that respect, Anakin's greatest failure was not meeting Qui-Gon's example, which I think we would both agree was his ideal.

I would have missed any sarcasm had there been any. I was already fairly certain--if presumptive in thinking--there was a shared joy of the fight.

Obi-Wan himself says in Return of the Jedi that he thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda. I think highly enough of Obi-Wan that I would only be a hair slower than you to say Obi-Wan was being a little hard on himself, though I wouldn't lay the blame on his oath to Qui-Gon. But I would quickly point out that Obi-Wan thought the entire thing had been one colossal failure. It's because Obi-Wan is not an arrogant man that he realizes Qui-Gon has more experience than he has. Now you mention Obi-Wan isn't arrogant but that he won't go against what he perceives the Force wants of him. I could say the same of Qui-Gon. I see Qui-Gon as the one Jedi who completely eschewed self for the Force. Did Qui-Gon want Anakin to be trained or did the Force want Anakin to be trained? The only people worried about his training were wary of pain, a material matter. It could be argued that Obi-Wan never fully gave his all to the Force until that last horizontal slash. At that time he finally followed Qui-Gon's example. My boy Qui-Gon, even in life he was a luminous being. It's only speculation, but I imagine that was his ticket to eternal life: he was already living the ideal when he died.

 

Qui-Gon Jinn's dying words were that Obi-Wan train the boy. I argue that his dying request was that the boy be trained. Only the council's dawdling had him convinced Obi-Wan would be the only one capable to doing it. It's therefore my opinion that if Obi-Wan respected the words of Qui-Gon in demanding that it be him to train Anakin, he was walking all over the intent of Qui-Gon in not accepting if Anakin had an opportunity to be trained by another.

 

Yikes, double post.

 

DING!

OK but let?s make it not one doctor but two . (This is a good one for me ? my best friend is a doctor. ) The surgeon (QG) is saying ? ?We must operate now , that arm is broken!!!? The internist (OBW) is saying, ?But the patient is unstable; his electrolytes are out of balance and he has an infection.? Wouldn?t it be wise to wait a bit and not rush into that operation??? Yes, the arm may suffer but the patient will live.
As for the child example ? yes, good point. But what if my 15 yo wants to leave now? He feels ready but my instincts scream, ?No, wait!? Wouldn?t I be negligent letting him go?

Yet it was Yoda that gave him the really good advice to be very careful when sensing the future. I think you do the little green guy a disservice here. Again, if they?re supposed to ignore all warnings of the future from the Force, then what are they given for? Is it cruelty? Are they not to be used but with great caution?
It was ?living in the moment? that damned the Jedi, if you ask me. They needed to see beyond that kriffin war and the ?separatists? but they were so caught up in the drumbeat of the now ? the tyranny of the urgent as I call it, they missed the big picture.

Umm, nope. The ideal is to integrate the two as Obi learned to do at the end.

Not, ?As well as Qui-gon,? I notice. Yes, I think once Obi took this task on he was blind to a lot of the problems. I think he really thought, once he was in the thick of it, ?I understand Ani. I know what?s best for him.? And he takes responsibility for that blindness. But I still hold that what set his feet on that path was that ?oath to Qui-Gon? and nothing else.

I never said that I was sure that Qui-gon was wrong in thinking Ani was to be trained.

The one?? Please point out to me one instance of Obi doing anything for himself. Of course you?ll say he did things for others not just the Force but he was completely selfless. And I still think QG?s problem was not his dedication to the Force but his insistence that only he felt it.

Not pain ? DANGER. Big difference. Obi wasn?t afraid to suffer; he was wary of rushing into a disaster. (Until he was blinded by love and devotion.)

Please explain, otherwise I see this as a really low blow to the guy who dedicated his entire life to the Force and had spent 20 years, alone, in a desert, looking after the Chosen Spawn?s offspring.

 

Ram, I know why he did it. I just don't think it was his place. It was trying to "reach out" from beyond the grave and control life. It was time to let go and trust in the Force.

And I agree w/ every other point you made. I don't lay everything that went wrong at Qui's door. But just as I won't let those people off the hook for their bad choices, I won't let QG off the hook for his. He still made a colossal error in judgment when he demanded that Obi train Ani.

 

YAY!!!

 

So, with the Council's acquiescence, he did train Anakin, and it went well for a long time.

Obi-Wan wasn't even thinking about what the Council wanted. When QJ was dying, Obi-Wan agreed to train Anakin, in hope of bringing less pain to QJ. Obi-Wan is an honourable man, so either way, I believe he would have trained Anakin. But, unlike his Master, he would do everything in his power to convince the Council first.

But if Qui-Gon could have survived, Anakin would have been better off. He cared for Anakin more than Obi-Wan did.

No, that is wrong. Obi-Wan did not care for Anakin when he first met him, but as soon as he took him as his apprentice, you can immediately tell the change in character. You can't say Obi-Wan didn't care for Anakin, he loved Anakin, as a son, and as a brother. Perhaps even more than Qui-Gon ever could.

 

Jedi_Momma can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she is saying that one choice that was meant to have been made after Qui-Gon died was preemptively unmade by Qui-Gon's dying wish. Based on Lucas's statement that Yoda would have been able to train Anakin without him falling to the dark side, she believes Yoda was meant to train Anakin. Even if a person doesn't believe the statement meant Yoda was the one destined to train him, the opinion could be slightly modified by saying merely that someone other than Obi-Wan was meant to train Anakin but Qui-Gon's dying wish preemptively unmade that destiny.

Unfortunately I don't remotely have the time to pop in for more than a moment (probably won't for a few days). I just wanted to lend a well meant hand to a much respected opponent.

 

Byronic_Jedi, You have summed it up well and might, I add, your impeccable manners and gift for reflection are rare indeed.

 

hey guys, i'm looking at byronic jedi and jedi momma specifically...

you were on about obi-wan's and anakin's relationship. so maybe for the time being you'd like to look here into saga journal to find this essay... Brothers and Sons: Lack of Communication in the Relationship Between Anakin Skwalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

mabye it was the force will to make Anakn.the force did this because it wanted Anakin to fulfill his deatiny this way.

 

Ram, I know why he did it. I just don't think it was his place

Maybe. Then again . . . maybe not. Maybe it was the Will of the Force told Qui-Gon that Anakin needed to be trained. I certainly don't think that trying to get Anakin into the Jedi Order was the "huge" mistake you had made it out to be. Joining the Order did not mean that Anakin was definitely fated to succumb to the Dark Side. In the end, the choice came down to Shmi and Anakin, who both wanted the latter to become a Jedi Knight.

But also remember - Obi-Wan did not have to carry out the promise he had made to Qui-Gon. Nor did the Council have to agree to train Anakin.

 

I don't think Ani joining the Order was a disaster at all - it was putting Obi-wan in the mix that was ill-fated. And I agree - Ani was not fated to fall.

No, Obi-wan didn't have to make the promise. Once he made it he was honor bound to see it through. And I agree about the Council.

 

Yes, it was honor bound, but, no, he did not have to carry out his promise. No one but him and Qui-Gon knew about that promise and so it would of been perfectly unknown. But of course, Obi-Wan being the selfless, honourable young man he is, he stuck to that promise. But of course, we can not know for sure where Obi-Wan's loyalties lie more deeply. If the Council had refused Anakin's training, would Obi-Wan have the courage to still train him, or would he be disloyal to his Master?

 

Should you let a 9 year old choose his job? I mean when I was 9 I wanted to be Barbie ir a member of the Partridge family. Both not great choices. Glad I wasn't stuck with them. Anakin realized that he loved Padme and that a Jedi's life may have not been for him. He said it in Ep. III to Padme when he was talking after rescuing Palps. "I'm tired of all this deception...I don't care if they know we're married." In my estimation if Jinn would have taken Ani back to see that his mother was happy and freed by Lars years before she died Ani could have put closure on it and things would not have turned out the way they did. I feel in Padme he was looking for a mother figure (It's kind of Norman Bates"y" if you think about it...yuck)

 

I don't think so at all. He shared his feelings, and his dreams with Padme even when he and his mother were happily (for a slave) living on Tatooine. He cared for her, and he even made a promise that he would marry her someday. I don't think even nine-year old boys feel that marrying your "mother-like" figure is right.