Qui-Gon.. lies?

Perhaps they were as subconsciously taken with the idea of a Chosen One as Qui Gon was, simply more grounded in the reality that came with training such a boy. Yoda didn't seem adverse to the idea of the Chosen One actually existing, merely that he was already 9 years old by the time he was introduced in the series with some simmering, underlying mental reservations.

Well, that...and I imagine that while Qui Gon's methods were unorthodox, he was still respected as a good Jedi friend, Obi Wan much the same. If he was determined to train the kid with or without approval, there was little Yoda could do to stop him. The Jedi controlled those who sided with them, but they could not control people's right to use the Force. If Obi Wan was going to do it anyway, best for Yoda to simply make it easier and make it legal so there wasn't an even bigger controversy surrounding it.

 

Frankly, I don't see anything more dishonest in QGJ's actions than I do Ben or Yoda's.

ya know i agree with that, but it's not QGJ's actions that make me wonder about him.

i don't think he was close to walking the darkside path, but i do think he was very vulnerable to being sucked into it by compairison to the other two mentioned.

the reason i think this is his 'style'.

he's head strong, idealistic, rebelious to a degree, possibly arrogant(though i could be missreading him) and definately has a huge heart.

these seem like some of the same weaknesses palpantine exploited in anakin and probably dooku, that's a guess not a spoiler, but an educated guess.

i guess it is that style that in my mind links Qui-gonn to dooku and to me that makes him vulnerable.

 

i mean apparently he is not on the council for a reason. yoda mentions qui gon's defiance to obi wan. so just that there leads me to think something is up.

u know how i feel about his actions.

hes a liar and the lies are really not the same to me as obi wan protecting luke later on.

"just checking your blood for infections"

sure u can justify him not saying to anakin, hmm just checking your blood to see your midichlorian count, but really why not just say that...

but then..he does seem noble and

and in AOTC..Jinn in the afterlife tells anakin, NO dont kill the tuskens..which might be looked at in ROTS to have more meaning. it just seems an odd thing for him to be doing..that he has such a tight bond with the greates JEDI killer in all 6 movies

 

Long but again worth it...

serenity...
Thank you for responding so well to my original post. And wow I got lots of responses here!!
I love this. Some agree, some don't.
So I want to clear up what I am saying by Responding to serenities argument against what I've said. My responses start with a RE: Then draw your own conclusions.

First I want to clear up something.
Yoda was brought into the picture. And I really think Lucas uses him as the Example of what a Jedi needs to be and do. This is why he later trains young Luke. Someone said Yoda kept his identity from Luke. Yes. But Luke was brought to Dagobah to be trained, Obiwan told him this. Yoda was testing him as he tested Anakin before him. Seeing if Luke was trainable. He acted insane to see how Patient Luke was. Then he later revealed himself to him, and he was always going to. He brought him to his home to introduce him to Yoda. He never planned to keep his identity a secret longer than the time it took to analyze him. Then he spoke to obiwan "I cannot train him the boy has no patience."
Also it was said that Yoda kept Vaders identity.
NO. Luke never asked. Then when he did ask "is darth vader my father" he said "rest I must" he did not say "no". And when luke said he MUST know, yoda said "Your father he is." He did not run away from the will of the force. Luke was meant to know. And Yoda complied. Even though yoda was surprized he trusted the will of the force.
But back to Quigon:
you said: Alot of these need to be taken in context.
-He is kept off the Jedi council for being a rebel
Not his fault. And he seems plenty willing to take the consequences of thinking differently. This is hardly a way of measuring "deceit" when the council and other Jedi have been accused of being arrogant by Yoda himself and the insinuation that corruption may be amidst them.
RE: Not his fault? If the rule is to stop at a stop sign and you do not, who's fault is it? The cops?
Rules are to protect us from things and if a Jedi does not follow rules he is endangering himself and others. This is why he is kept off the council. As for arrogance, yoda is hinting to Obiwan that Obiwan is arrogant without saying it outright..because obiwan accuses anakin of being arrogant. Yoda never said anything about anyone else in particular he just said its becomeing a common flaw hint hint.
-He keeps his "own" rules
Most of which people would argue remain well within the realm of safe practice. I've seen nothing that significantly harms others.
RE: It doesnt have to significantly harm others, the actions may just harm QuiGon and Obiwan and later Ani because they all rebel. I dont agree it was safe practice for a Jedi.Maybe for another race, maybe for humans but not for Jedi who are led by the will of the force. They are given a special gift to protect.
-He seems to be a loner and misunderstood
Again, not a sign of deceit. More of a characteristic and societal conflict.
RE: But why is he in conflict? What is the background pull he has to disobey the rules given to him by Yoda and others? We never know.
-He lets obiwan refer to alien species as "what is this?" and that is a bit arrogant.
Yes, but he's also extremely annoyed with Jar Jar and in a foul, irritable mood in general about what's going to happen with Naboo. But I will give you this one. I wasn't particularly fond of how they treated him at first - but in Qui Gon's defense, he later saves Jar Jar's life, seeing the value in the Gungan's existence.
RE: Do you think Yoda would sacrifice his quiet mind and serenity for a foul mood and annoyance? That is dangerous for a Jedi..hard not to yes, but he apparently let his emotions rule then. Yes he later saves Jar Jars life but only because he says the gungan may be of help to him. He almost leaves
-He uses mind manipulation on the leader of the Gungans when the Gungans post no threat to him.. he just wants his way and quickly.
No, he resorted to what options he had left. People were going to suffer if he didn't get to the Naboo fast enough to warn them, an effect tha

 

I don't think Qui-Gon is skirting the Dark Side at all. Let's face it, not all lies are bad. For example, if you were living in Nazi-occupied Europe during WWII, and were hiding a family of Jews in your attic, you'd lie to protect them, would you not?

It's always been impression that at heart, Qui-Gon is just your old-fashioned bleeding heart do-gooder. He's a big softy for the little guy and hates to see anyone being bullied.

 

Tatooine_Gemini, I think you're reading too much into some things.

"-He seems to be a loner and misunderstood
Again, not a sign of deceit. More of a characteristic and societal conflict.
RE: But why is he in conflict? What is the background pull he has to disobey the rules given to him by Yoda and others? We never know."

What about the fact that Dooku mentions that Qui-Gon knew about the state of the Senate? About the greediness, the lies, the backstabbing? About the fact that the Republic was literally falling apart The fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side in recent years? The fact that he knew the Council to be overly arrogant and blind?
Yoda admitted as much to Obi-Wan at the end of the film, and mentions again the incredible arrogance of a lot of Jedi, even the older ones who should know better. "Too sure of themselves, they are."

"RE: And what is wrong with the truth? Anakin is not going to tell the town. Ive never said Quigon was malicious or mean or a sith or evil. I just am saying he walks a thin line and his ways are taught to Anakin and Obiwan. You see the trouble that comes from Quigons defiance later on. Obi ends up very arrogant and this hurts Anakin."

Nothing wrong with the truth, but for the fact that on this occasion, they were supposed to be keeping a low profile. They were on a Hutt-controlled world and if they'd gotten wind of a Jedi wandering around, they'd wonder why he was there at all. Cue a full investigation, they'd probably capture the Queen, and sell her to the Trade Federation. Even if they were defeated by Obi-Wan and Anakin, they'd tell the Trade Federation anyway just to get them out of their hair. It has nothing to do with trust or truth - rather prudence instead.

"The troops were there that means the war is on
andhe never tells Shmi her son is walking into that"

Oh, come on! That was hardly a war! It was a blockade of the planet, and then turned into an invasion. There were two battles, but it wasn't a war. Qui-Gon didn't even know that Padme had planned to battle the Federation until they were on Naboo, and when the battle did start, he made sure of his safety. You think he should've left him on Tatooine to rot instead of coming with him to become a Jedi? Leaving out for the moment the fact that he didn't know there would BE a battle!

"RE: I disagree. Its not harmless. Anakin was a Jedi and he basically knew it. Anni didn't. Anakin never knew but it would have been nice if QG was honest."

What evidence do you have that he didn't check for infections? Besides, Shmi was calling, warning Anakin to get to bed. He couldn't very well explain midichlorians to a child, giving him false hope of training to be a Jedi when Qui-Gon didn't even know by then if he could. That would crush Anakin. And he did tell him about midichlorians when on Coruscant. Oh, and Anakin is not a Jedi in Phantom Menace - he's force-sensitive. There is a massive difference between someone who is force-sensitive and can be trained as a Jedi, and someone who has been trained and is fully qualified. "Jedi" is a title, not a description.

"RE: No. Everyone else was a normal race of person and allowed to race. I dont know if the hutts would allow a Jedi to race."

Once again, he is NOT a Jedi! He is a child who has not yet been trained to take advantage of the power the Force gives him. All he has is advanced perceptions, and that hardly disqualifies him on the grounds of cheating. It only allows him to race with species who have many more advantages over him.


Yes, Qui-Gon walked on the edge, pushed things more than any other Jedi would. And yet, he remains a champion of the Light, someone who could see the good and use in creatures other Jedi, Obi-Wan included, regarded as pathetic and not worth their time. Dooku trained him, yes, but Yoda trained Dooku. Are you going to blame him for Anakin's downfall?

Dooku quit the Order because of Qui-Gon's death. The two of them knew of the corruption in the Republic, and in the Jedi Order itself. There's no wond

 

"hes a liar and the lies are really not the same to me as obi wan protecting luke later on."

That's a load of bull. Lies are lies, no matter what the situation.

So, Qui-Gon lying is a terrible evil, even to protect an entire planet's people from dying, but Obi-Wan lying is a decent thing to do?

Get a clue.

 

Rudeness is uncalled for.

 

Woweee... this thread IS going well! Love it. Love it Love it. LOL.

Thanks to the ones who answered my Topic here!!
....though I'm still not sure if I am getting across what I'm really saying. I don't mean to say AT ALL that Qui-gon was dark-side. I don't mean to say that he did what he did for bad intentions. I don't mean to say that he himself was to blame for what anakin later chooses to do. I only wanted to point out that Qui-gon did lie. And yes he did cheat. And he did a few things that as you all say.. are in the GRAY area. I understand that to be human is to make mistakes and to not be perfect.. but like Anakin says when Padme says "to be angry is to be human".. he says "Im a Jedi, I know Im better than this."

I wanted to respond to some of your posts...
Thank you AZHREI for opening my eyes to what Quigon knew about the government.. and thanks Quinastasia for what you posted too. Thats what these boards are for!
you wrote:
I don't think Qui-Gon is skirting the Dark Side at all. Let's face it, not all lies are bad. For example, if you were living in Nazi-occupied Europe during WWII, and were hiding a family of Jews in your attic, you'd lie to protect them, would you not?
RE: Yes I would. Extreme circumstances.
But I am not a Jedi. Being a Jedi gives you a few more options. And they are to trust teh WILL of the force over their own opinions and feelings. It is a strange way of life. They are not human like us.

It's always been impression that at heart, Qui-Gon is just your old-fashioned bleeding heart do-gooder. He's a big softy for the little guy and hates to see anyone being bullied.
RE: I totally agree. That is also how I see him.

Post HistoryAzhrei
Tatooine_Gemini, I think you're reading too much into some things.
"The troops were there that means the war is on
and he never tells Shmi her son is walking into that" Oh, come on! That was hardly a war! It was a blockade of the planet, and then turned into an invasion. There were two battles, but it wasn't a war. You think he should've left him on Tatooine to rot instead of coming with him to become a Jedi?
RE: No, I don't think he should've left him to rot instead of coming with him to become a Jedi. But I do think that there would be ANOTHER way. Going by what I've learned is written about the way of the force.. there is no stopping or escaping your destiny. But there are wrong choices. My point was that maybe Qu-gon should have been more patient with Anakin, maybe he should have waited to see what the force would do. He himself said once in the film, "another way will present itself". He knew the force would lead them. He did not have to cheat, lie and lower himself to that level in order to accomplish what was going to be done. Ani would be trained. It was his destiny. He was the chosen one. Period.

As for the chain of MENTORS leading up to Anakin falling into the darkside...
Yoda taught Dooku.. Dooku fell to the darkside.. Before he did he taught Qui-gon, Qui-gon became a rebel of the order and did not want to be a part of the council, Qui-gon is slain by a sith. Before that he taught Obi-wan. Obi-wan tries his best to comply with the order more than his mentor and his mentors mentor.. but in the process becomes a bit arrogant. Even Yoda hints at this with him in conversation. Obi did not fall to the darkside, and he does not rebel. He is not making the same mistakes, and he is meant to teach the chosen one. Who wouldn't be arrogant? But this all teaches Anakin. Ani learns about the force from Qui-gon and his methods FIRST, and then obiwan steps in.. but Ani already is a rebel and does not quite want to listen to obi. We see this VERY CLEAR in ep2. He has his own ways just like Qui-gon did. And so.. with Palpatine telling him to "trust his feelings" and know he "does not need guidance".. he is destined to fall. The rebeliousness of Qui-gon and the overprotectiveness of Obiwan do make it very easy for Palpatine/Sidious to flatter Anakin and lead him astray. Very easy.
Ani needs to be

 

But Qui-Gon Jinn did gamble with a ship that was not his own.