Lit Reading or Re-Reading The Dark Nest trilogy by Troy Denning

She prolonged the pregnancy to hide and delay it. Thus creating more doubt as to the paternity and buying time to claim she didn’t know who the father was(given a lot of the Hapan nobility seemed to think they might have been the father, so no one tried to kill Allana).

I don’t hate TK as a character, and I do realize she had to operate within a very dangerous political context. (I also cycle through profile pics every few months).

What I find distasteful about the whole affair is Jacen was unable to ever actually be Allana’s father. So much so Allana didn’t even realize that he was. He couldn’t tell anyone, and he couldn’t even be a presence in her life regularly.

I don’t think Jacen resented TK at all for that, nor did he ever not love or resent Allana(far far far from it). I do think it was still a very horrific situation to put Jacen in.

 

Coercion, which is what she does "sleep with me to get what you want" can and is a form of rape, espcially if we take into account; 1, the power imbalance of the scene and; 2, the culture of Hapes where men are treated as slaves, with shock collars.

Speaking legally one could very easily argue that Jacen was forced by TK to have intercourse (which is raped), she just did it using the social power imbalance than a physical one. No different if a boss says "sleep with me to get a promotion".

Hapes culture is horrible and TK continues it, at ever opportunity she makes the choice to join and then continue it, she choose to be queen, she choose tell Jacen "if you want my fleet sleep with me", she then choose to have his child, a child which was in constant danger and who could never have a real relationship with her father.

Just to be clear I DO hate TK as a character same with Allana and Hapes in general.

 

"Sleep with me and get promoted" is a little different from "Sleep with me or you'll get fired". One is a form of bribery, the other is a form of coercion.

Plus Jacen's not in Tenel Ka's "chain of command" anyway - he's not a Hapan but a visiter to Hapes - it would be more like the CEO of company A winning a contract with company B by sleeping with company B's commander. No "inherent imbalance of power from commander to subordinate" there.

 

I got that "sleep with me and you get your fleet" as mere banter between the two of them, where TK coqueted a bit with her royal power. That also, because Jacen was very shy to approach her directly. She gave Jacen enough signs that she was interested in him as a human being - as a man on an equal base. And honestly, I doubt that Jacen went for Hapes just because of the fleet. He would even have slept with TK without getting all the ships with their crews. Sometimes I wondered if the fleet thing wasn't but a mere pretext for Jacen to visit her.

 

Exactly @Sudooku its kinda their roleplay foreplay lol! Mocking their otherwise public duty driven personas in dialogue while their thoughts are entirely one step further already!


PS: I love how the book trilogies titles totally fit lots of characters in the books. Many Joiner Kings, Unseen Queens, and the like as Dark Nest is psychologically interesting as previous old Legends topics discussed at length already. Not just the Killik conscious/subconscious paralell, but also what the characters do consciously and subconsciously, what drives them, etc. that's why they can say one thing, but totally not mean it verbatim like in this instance when its more roleplay mockery.
Revisiting other dialogue and characters in the same light should be interesting and enlightening!

Even the later gambit with the nobles of Hapes at first sight implies Tenel Ka would have to have slept with each of them to have all think it could be their kid... while looking deeper, that is improbable and unlikely and she more likely used quite some Force tricks, Mindtricks, Dathomiri illusion powers or some doppelgangers to fool them into thinking that. Lucky she has some Mairan friends ever since YJK, eh?

But putting your political rivals into an Embrace of Joy (rather than pain lol) is a debateable tactic as well and not very Jedi. After these fools already cut off limbs to woo her, they sure are weakminded and susceptible to Mindtricks. But if it works...

As for other Hapan business:
While I am happy that Hapes is canon for Disney, too, already, I still wait for hapan characters to appear and see how they differ. We already know they had maybe no closed borders in Disney canon for Aphra modded her Ark Angel in the Cluster with their help.

 

Power she would have had to maintain constantly. Force illusions cannot be sustained casually. I think its beyond any doubt she intentionally slept with a number of Hapan nobility to create doubt and uncertainty. Everyone knew Allana was Tenel Ka's but no one knew who the father was, every jealous and ambitious Hapan noble would always wonder "is it mine?". This gives TK plenty of time to solidify her position and possibly take a consort in the future, she could tell Allana's was his. (Though Denning doesn't go into her long term plans).

As for TK and "sleep with me and get your fleet"-yes its coquettish and no its not rape, if Jacen had said no TK would have been unhappy but would have been unable and unwilling to force the issue. Yes they are consummating feelings they've had for over twenty years. So as far as that is concerned, there is no malice but TK chose to have a child, and then chose to put Jacen in a position of constant stress and secrecy.

Sooner or later, even ignoring the SGCW and Lumiya(assuming those things did come to fruition) Allana would grow and TK would have probably lied to her about who her father was, or told her it was Jacen and then to keep it a secret. Its notable Jacen had to always sneak into the palace-with only a few people knowing he was there. So Jacen's daughter would have grown up either believing a lie, or been unable to actually meet Jacen as her father.

I cannot begin to describe how horrific and miserable such a situation is.

 

Idk, it is Troy Denning. Maybe it was literal lol

 

I honestly don't think it was banter. Jacen went there needing a fleet and TK said "Sleep with me to get it". It is a gross exploitation of her position of power.

Denning thinks women sexually assaulting men (and boys) is romantic, see THAT scene.

Both would get you pulled up in HR and both are an exploitation of power. There isn't much difference.

Given that he is her place, surrounded by her forces and asking her for a favour they are very much NOT on equal footing, there is a major power imbalance in her favour. And what does she do? she exploits it to get what she wants, dam everyone else.

 

"Whether it's a life imprisonment/decades in jail/death penalty crime or not" makes a huge difference.

 

@AusStig ,
AFAIS, Jacen did not sue TK for this years later before a court and he also didn't give dramatic interviews about that to the Coruscant Report or to Fasald Ghem. So I assume TK's innocence and that it wasn't that grave transgression from her side.

 

Best as I can tell, all of the Wook's references to Hapes and the Hapes Consortium in canon come from questionable sources - D'Agostini, FFG, etc. Proceed with caution.

 

We would have never have guessed!

I do think you've read wa-ay more into that scene then there actually is. There is nothing in the text to suggest that she wouldn't have lent the fleet even if Jacen had not spent the night. "I don't want to be your paramour." -- "You're not. Paramour's are playthings." (paraphrase). If nothing else, this section would be 'You're asking a lot, but I need your help, too.'. We could consider it a quid quo pro, I suppose, but the Trump administration really tilted what that means now. I am in agreement with @Sudooku in that Jacen was probably going to end up on Hapes anyway.

Correct. At no point is Jacen under threat either tacitly or implied. Furthermore, I'd argue that Jacen knows he can get other military assets there eventually, but also knows that Hapes is A) Closer (I think....don't have time to pull up the map) and B) not spread all over the galaxy. It will be easier for the Hapan Navy to re-task a couple of ships right now than it will for the Alliance Navy. And let's be clear...it IS only a few ships. We've made more of this 'fleet' than it is. Han and Leia encounter the Hapans enroute, and only a few ships are mentioned.

If I am reading this correctly, you're thinking that Tenel Ka would have her palace guard attack if Jacen doesn't agree? That seems extremely unlikely...she had already told the guard to stand down. And is REALLY misunderstanding the relationship the two of them had at the time.

@The Positive Fan: I find that I can't really rely on the Wook for anything more than basic geography at this point.

 

I bang this drum perhaps a little too often but between the lack of development on many canon articles and the sourcing issues, Wookieepedia is simply not a great research tool right now as far as canon goes. It's unfortunate because it's still a fantastic resource on the Legends side of things, and you can clearly see what could be.

 

Tenel Ka had concluded at one point Jacen just saw her as a friend. I think she’d have been unhappy if he refused but I don’t think anyone is claiming she’d have attacked him or something.

What myself and a few others are criticizing her for is having Jacen’s child in a dangerous environment that forbids him from ever having a real relationship with his child.

 

Both are crimes though. Bribery is a crime and in the case you cited it would also be a boss abusing their power.

Male rape victims often don't report due to shame and fear of being mocked.

Yes. I think she would have them attack him and knock him out if he did not agree.

They have no relationship, she is someone he used to know in highschool who now wants to take his sperm and make a child. They only went on one mission during the YZW and then never spoke after it. Jacen had moved on.

She has lived as queen of a culture where men are said to be genetically inferior, she has enforced the laws that disenfranchise men. She cannot accept Jacen as an equal, she might say it but her actions and inactions show that she doesn't mean it.
@Darth Invictus

I am claiming that she would have him attacked. Because I think she absolutely would. She doesn't care about Jacen, she wants her first crush, not the man he became.
I think she is a horrible near human, who exploited Jacen and then created a situation where her child would be full emotionally dependant on her. If any one here watches archer, it's what Malory did with Sterling.

TK is not a moral person, she is dictator ruling over an oppressive, racist, sexist, xenophobic state.

Edit: Actually TK asking for Jacen to sleep with her as the condition to get the fleet is a REALLY bad look for both of them. For Jacen it makes him a whore, for TK it makes it look like she is lead by her libido or can be brought off easily with sex when making state decisions.

I wonder how the families of those killed in the battle of Qoribu would feeling knowing they died for the Queens libido.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Qoribu

 

Someone should cut back on reading NSFW fanfics I guess... or stop projecting. It gets ridicolous by now and annoying. Whatever is really underlying such a reading of these scenes in question should be adressed outside of SW I think. I am not one to ridicule rape or any such situation, but I rather want such trauma to get worked out outside of fiction that got nothing to do with it. And even if you disagree, which is ok, lets agree to disagree and not derail a good character discussion by negativity please. Criticism has its place, but I think I am not alone with this feeling that this is beyond critisism.

These are hardly questionable sources. They are official sources and I know for a fact that authors working on the mags are working with LFL when adding new stuff, not adding stuff themselves. Especially the Build the Falcon, etc. mags authors I know some personally have added a lot of new lore that is fully Disney canon and was vetted by LFL when they proposed an addition that made sense.

Even FFG, while as an rpg not having game stories fully canon, does operate with lore and an underlying universe foundation that fully is canon. As with computer games, the paths may differ, but the stuff in it exists in canon. Besides, wasn't it on the new maps, that may not tell about its culture but certainly its existance.

First, thx for clarifying some earlier statements and agreeing to the no malice on Tenel Ka's part.

As I said elsewhere before, if she slept with some, and I still doubt it was all of them, then that is fine as well as Jacen and her may have a kinda open relationship with benefits outside of it. We never hear or see this on page, sure, but it may be and is something not uncommon in the real world, even if blasphemous to more traditional minded fellows.
As for illusions or mindtricks, they do not have to be maintained constantly. We do know that mindtricks once done, stick, as some deathstick seller went home to rethink his life even after Kenobi was gone. Also illusions can be made permanent without constant upkeeping, Fallanassi did that in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, leaving them behind where they had been. So maybe Dathomiri know something similiar I guess.

As to the what if scenario for the parenthoods future I can only say that I do not believe she put him in such a bad place, nor that any such arrangement would have been held up longterm. It may be naive, but both hoped to have time together as a family one day once this one final duty is done... but duty ended up followed by duty and new chaos and then all detoriated and that was not their fault or doing.
That you extend the arrangement to initially keep a secret to forever is indeed sad if that would have happened. Fact though is, we can't know as the future took a different turn with the secret spilled and Jacen and her falling apart for different reasons sadly thx to the Sith.

But as everyone insists on his/her reading of the pages, I guess we are turning in circles somewhat and may rather try to find some quotes that proof something or deliver new insights to the discussion.

Now, I think Dark Nest is a breaking point for Jacen as well as Tenel Ka. Both see their past and how it kept them apart, briefly consummate their love, and then return to their duties, but both are shaken, both want to not keep going as they did before and rather want to change that dynamic to a permanent family time. Yet they both are unwilling to let go of others needing their help, yet start to slowly break free of that cycle. But in the end it was too late sadly.

Tenel Ka started to show initiative and gain support outside of her grandmothers followers her family had banked on for so long and especially after Jacen fried her brains, she was free of being blocked by her and could make a name of her own with her own support. Pitty Jacen mindwiped Ben and had to keep him along as an apprentice to complicate things again.

 

I think they had a relationship already, though it maybe had been retconned only lately by Troy Denning (he had always loved her). For me this is a typical rekindling situation: You like someone, but you never are alone with that person. Then some time is passing and suddenly you meet the person again, more, you are alone with the person and the spark, what had been mere ember before, is incinerated.

I also see very high context language here, when they speak. You always have to think about a double meaning and both seem to enjoy this in the novel. Just recall those phrases in Spanish pop songs "Matame" or "Devorame" like in MALA by Tekashi69. It is not meant she really is asked to kill him and to swallow and digest him later as a canibal, but those meanings are often played with in a romantic manner.

 

We get it, Stig...you don't like her, her regime, or the Consortium. I have some of the same issues with Corellia -- I loathe their hyper-militarism, arrogance, and near-constant threats of secession. But your arguments are really just projections on how you feel. For me, Hapes is an interesting take at what a matriarchal society might look like, and makes us examine our default patriarchal views.

I agree that she probably slept with a few of them...the ruse won't work if she doesn't...and I think that actually fits with the matriarchal society. How many 'knight-in-shining-armor' bodice-rippers have been written where the guy has more 'experience' and the woman is relatively okay with it? That's the society we have. Hapes would be the same in reverse, I think, where the women are 'expected' to play around. Jacen, of course, doesn't find out about any of this until he meets Allana...but he also understands that he is in no position to complain. One: it's already done and he can't change it. Two: he understands a bit on how the Hapan political scene works.

I agree that both of them really thought they could make this work a bit later. In fact, I think the rationale that Tenel Ka didn't announce Jacen after the Battle of Hapes was super thin. She had more to gain domestically by announcing him then she had to lose by offending Skywalker. Indeed, he had already kicked her out of the Order, so he had absolutely nothing to fear from the Jedi. By announcing Jacen, who had JUST helped save her regime, and probably stopped a wider civil war, it would have allowed him to stay on Hapes. I'm not sure what I hate more: that Denning makes Tenel Ka politically stupid in this scene, or that it still makes her look like she has to get 'Master' approval to do anything.

 

Can confirm the power of rekindling. I had a friend I knew in college, we hadn’t spoken much in years but kept vaguely in touch, and one day I decided to accept an invite to her son’s 3rd birthday party. Stayed after to help clean up and now our daughter turns 11 next month and we celebrate our tenth wedding anniversary next year.


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That is from the Text. The Hapes are racist, sexist xenophobes. It also is not interesting, since there is no discussion or change, Hapes is bad and it is treated as both bad and fine.

Denning never wrote her as a good leader, he can't see to write a good leader and what he thinks is a good leader is bad.

 

Yes Hapes is in many ways racist and bad towards men. I agree reforms should have happened earlier with Tenel Kas parents already but didn't. And i agree one should not overlook that when using Hapes as fleetjunkie ressource merely by writers. But inuniverse most is Taa chume's fault to block and delay.

But that is more an author issue than an inuniverse one where most changes would be offpage and could be read many ways. Even if maybe, we do not know, Tenel Ka changed laws, local Planetary governments might still stay traditional and slow down adaption. Happens in the real world too. Allstons FotJ novel at least shows hapan men on Dathomir at least and changes to Dathomir what is officially hapan, too and easier adapts than the rest of the cluster.

Even CoPL had hapan worlds as diverse when presenting thenselves with gifts. Some were worse to men than others. Like the male cyborg warrior Army world. And luckily we never see Tenel Ka make use of such.

So there is hope.



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Hapes gets WORSE for men after TK takes over, during NJO there are other male leaders aside from Isolder. By LotF, when TK has full rulership, there are none (and her believed ally uses a shock collar on men she explicitly has sex with and doesn't seem like something she would hide). She presides over this decline in rights, either she is compliant or complacent.

Also Hapes hate 'aliens' and TK makes no effort to change that or open the nation to outside investment or interactions.

 

Well sexual kink needn't be oppression. But can you find the exact quote for me? Maybe some allies are indeed terrible but if so, that may be inherited allies from taa chumes reign that were allied yet not pro reform. In need of allies you take what you can get, even if suboptimal. No ruler can change everything without support.

And Tenel Ka is hardly worse besides absence does not equal there is none. Could be just left offpage like so much else. There are many examples where Hapes is changing, too, even if preserving a unique local culture despite adaptions to fit into the wider galactic community. They just need to figure out how to preserve the good without the bad and overcome that and hardliners starting a civil war over exactly what she wants to change actually. That alone shows she is trying to, but maybe not enough or not enacting harsh enough on rivals with fleetinfluence.

I see a lot of game of thrones paralells here in several regards.


PS for all: I think we should in that regard discuss Taa chume and her life. What are her motivations, her choices?

In COPL she seeks a wife for Isolder, yet is known to assassinate plenty and tries to later repeatedly anyway. She opens Hapes to the outside and NR, tries to get Leia, yet is anti-Jedi and traditional for a Hapan not wanting changes or Jedi rulers or outsiders. She isn't just a mommy that wants her son happy but does comply to a lot he demands. And he in his younger days defied her a lot even as per his Smuggler times to find his brothers murderers despite that making her proud and name him heir to the throne after all.

Likewise after COPL, when Teneniel recieved training in royal and galactic affairs before the marriage and pregnancy, Taa kept the reign until she was ready, then even was ever a presence and de facto ruler in their stead whenever the couple had to hide from assassins or traveled abroad. Despite her implications in murder she was never accused or removed, or could not be even by Isolder.
Later she tries to educate and influence Tenel Ka during YJK and later as Queen following her moms death, too.


I think, Taa chume is a contradiction. While lying and manipulating, her actions do not make sense for someone that would simply be evil or powerhungry to keep the throne. She actually cares about her lineage, and wants it to continue beyond her, after her. But she is dissatified with any choice presented and keeps killing or trying to kill any such failing her expectations, falling short of being like her.
She knows Hapes better than Isolder, Teneniel or Tenel Ka. She knows the consequences of reforms, impending civil war, etc. and tries to avert that at all costs. But she too has a major problem, which is why she in the first place had to open up to the New Republic. She did not want Leia, even tried to assassinate her. But she needed the NR or else she would not have gone to these great lengths for an alliance between both, even if she let the NR believe they needed them more than otherwise.

Hapes had innerpolitical troubles before 8ABY already and Taa tries to settle those via, as nations often do, solutions outside ones own borders. We never learn what exactly these troubles or motivations are but as later troubles show for Teneniel and Tenel Ka, we can take some educated guesses.

Taa chume lost influence or support and needed to gain the upper hand again. Maybe she needed the NR alliance to get GFFA tech to technologically stay superior to her rival noble houses that may attempt a coup on her and her allies otherwise. In addition, Isolder as a male heir worried the nobles and they needed a female hair she could not produce, so she seemed weak in their eyes as a mother, as well as potential for marrying Isolder was highly sought after by other houses that wanted the throne. To deny them that, not just by assassinations, Taa wanted him married off outside the cluster or rather engaged, not actually marrying Leia who she intended to kill, too. Longterm though she needed a solution, either a suiteable wife for him, or produce a different heir/daughter herself, which seemed unlikely.

In the end, trapped in her own manipulations and the truth about murder that Isolder discovered, she had to agree to the NR alliance and marriage between Isolder and Teneniel. She tried to rectify that with murder again surely, but for a short time Isolder could manipulate his mother. Would he spill that she murdered his brother and other potential wifes, Hapes would boil into civil war. Lady Elliar, Isolders first fiancee that got murdered was of some other noble house probably and they would want blood once finding out Taa is behind the murder. So Isolder promised to withhold that information if Taa grants him Teneniel as wife and to hand over rule to her/them.
She saw the troubles that would bring, but had to agree first. Spared a hapan murder trial that would have her dethroned and either other nobles start a coup or civil war, or have Isolder's wife take the throne, she tried to prevent a delayed chaos to the cluster due to a "Outsider / Jedi Queen" and failed to assassinate them repeatedly, but managed to prevent reforms beyond superficial law changes and more options for men to escape rather than live freely closer to home.

Later Tenel Ka inherits this boiling pot of a cluster, knowing that Taa and her allies are needed against the innerpolitical enemies. Facing Civil War or Coup due "Outsider Jedi Queen" opposing noble houses, revealing Taa now as murderer would only bring more houses to their enemies side and weaken their position sadly. Thus burning Taa was not an option even then. And only slowly did Tenel Ka gain own allies and friends inside the cluster, with it taking time till they might outweigh the rest without Taa's allies. It was a long game, and one meant to boil over into civil war inevitably, but this Game of Thrones play would be neverending, not even by Jacen frying Taa's brain. As the consequences are out of control beyond her manipulations already for quite a while.


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I don't have the book any more but:
(it is from the mid/late part of the book after Han and Leia drop Sing off and pick up the Hapen woman and are traveling) Leia says "I used to use a shock colare but it just made him drool" "That might affect his performance in... Oh your joking... I sometimes forget the rest of the galaxy is [more accepting] attitude towards men". The woman, (an enemy of TK, but I don't think she is an 'open' enemy) sees nothing wrong with shocking someone for disobeying, only warning that it might affect their performance, likely sexually. That is utterly horrid, it is literally how slaves were treated in SWTOR. That she feels no shame shows this isn't something considered shameful in Hapes.

None of them are mentioned. The Heritage Council, seem to hate her just because. The wook says they don't want to be a part of the GA but I think they also don't like her being a Jedi? Either way they make no mention of equal rights or foreign influence (or their people getting killed in these books, "No blood for bugs" seems like a good slogan). To me that says they aren't happening. While it is possible all the men with power are off-screen, that none are mentioned, even as an idea, says to me they don't.

Do you have any examples of Hapes being part of the greater galaxy?

The only parallel to GoT is to season 8, where everyone is dumb and everything is rushed.

 

Men wearing collars isn’t a “sexual kink” in a genuine matriarchy. It’s either enslavement or a sign of their subordinate status.

As it is, I don’t think TK’s moral foundations and political ambitions really factored into the writer’s planning I doubt they cared that much.