Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)

Hopefully we can put something to bed here that's running on about three threads right now.

If Obi-Wan is superior to Darth Maul because he won the duel, then Obi-Wan is superior to Anakin Skywalker because of the results on Mustafar. You can't say, "Obi-Wan got lucky, it was a fluke. Normally, Anakin was the superior fighter and just had a bad day" and then say, "Maul lost to Obi-Wan, therefore he wasn't as good as Obi-Wan, despite the fact that Darth Maul was clearly winning the duel".

It's like this: say boxer A is just absolutely hammering boxer B for every round, outsticking him, jabbing, hooking, moving, has better stamina, is barely breaking a sweat, not losing his cool, making every shot count, bobbing and weaving rather than absorbing, etc. Boxer A lands the critical overhand right. Boxer B, eyes swollen shut and hazy with blood flowing from his cut eyebrows, swings a wild haymaker as he's falling to the mat and knocks out boxer A. Boxer B has won the fight.

There's a rematch in one year. Who are you going to place your thousand-dollar bet on?

If you say that Boxer B is the superior fighter because the result is everything, regardless of the fighter's performance, you must acknowledge that Obi-Wan is better than Maul. You must also acknowledge that Obi-Wan is, unquestionably and absolutely, better than Anakin Skywalker, despite Midichlorian count, what Mace says, what Sidious says, even what Lucas says.

But if you say that Boxer A is the superior fighter, and that Anakin Skywalker was better than Kenobi, you must also acknowledge that Darth Maul is a better fighter than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

You can't have it both ways.

 

I think it depends on how you decide if someone's a better fighter. Sabre skills, or ingenuity, or skill in the Force, etc.

I would say that both Maul and Anakin are better technical fighters when it come to the straight out lightsabre fighting. However, it should say something that twice, Obi-Wan has come out the winner despite that. It's not really a fluke if it happens more than once. Obi-Wan seems to be the best of the three at figuirng out how to save himself from the brink, and how to use the situation, whatever it might be, to his advantage.

While both Anakin and Maul out-fought Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan out-thought them both. I wouldn't say Anakin and Maul are the superior fighters while Obi-Wan isn't, nor would I say Obi-Wan was better than the two of them. They all have their strengths that apply at different times, and in rematches, I think either matchup (Obi vs Anakin or Obi vs Maul) could go either way. The winner is not clear cut in either direction.

 

Vader was far more powerful than Obi-Wan, yet Obi-Wan won. Maul was equal to Obi-Wan with Kenobi holding his own and forcing Maul into a retreat(which he never did with Vader.) Maul was more skilled with a lightsaber than Obi-Wan, but was inferior in terms of situational awareness. Vader was more powerful than Obi-Wan was superior to Vader in that specific match up even though there were many opponents that Vader could defeat and Obi-Wan couldn't. It's not black and white.

 

I don't think he was far more powerful. Although he did have the power of the dark side.

 

I don't think far more powerful is consistent with the film though Vader is supposedly on Palpatine's level which would make him far more powerful.

 

Since the films are just that, films, with fight sequences specifically designed to entertain the audience, rather than depict a realistic fight (ie, Grievous logically has no defense against a Force user, yet, fight takes longer than the 5 seconds Kenobi needed to simply crush his armor) we have to look at other factors. Darth Maul was played by a martial arts expert, Ray Park. Ok, Lucas cast someone who was actually capable of doing cool things. Why do the OT duels look weak in comparison? Because none of the actors were trained properly to give a well choreographed duel, and Lucas didn't understand how much better those duels could have been if he had the technology to make them so. In other words, the films do not necessarily accurately portray skill levels, if based on duels alone. Had the PT come first, in 1977, 81 and 83, those duels would look like crap, and the OT's duels would be the ones using the CGI, and employing better stunt choreography.

There is plenty of other evidence to solve the debate though, not the least of which is the creator of the entire Star Wars galaxy, the one who created all of the characters involved, stating that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is pretty much the end all be all of Force users. We have the statements from other characters acknowledging Anakin's power, including Sidious, who would have first hand knowledge about the skill levels of Maul, Dooku and Anakin. We have a Jedi swordsman in Mace, acknowledged to be one of the all time greatest, in the novelization say that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever. We have Sidious openly stating that Anakin would become "greater than all of us". We do not have any statements from Sidious claiming that about Maul.

But, if you want to go the results route, we can do that too. Maul, in the films, kills Qui-Gon, which is a great start, but then blows it against Obi-Wan big time, bringing his career as a Sith to a very abrupt end. A Sith Apprentice losing to a mere Padawan is simply unforgivable.

Anakin/Vader meanwhile, at age 18, gives Dooku a good run before losing. A loss that he avenges in ROTS, where he states that he has grown twice as powerful since the last time they fought...and, once Anakin taps into the dark side, its hard to argue with him. Once Anakin taps the dark side, he dominates Dooku. Then, we have the Jedi temple. While the actual fighting inside is not seen, it is implied that Anakin killed numerous Jedi Masters, Knights, and Padawans. While the actual death toll isn't known, by age 21, Darth Vader already has multiple Jedi notches on his belt to Maul's one. He then has an epic duel with Obi-Wan, his master, who knows all his moves, instincts, and drives him back and back, until making the same mistake Maul did...underestimating Obi-Wan. However, unlike with Maul, Kenobi was a Master, fully tuned with the Force at the time, and had the advantage of knowing exactly how Anakin fights. Kenobi wins because he has personal knowledge of Anakin's fighting style. Without that, Anakin/Vader mops the floor with him. Kenobi defeats him, leaves him wounded, for dead. Then, after he gets into the suit, Vader continues to hunt surviving Jedi, adding more notches to his belt. He also eventually avenges his loss to Kenobi as well. Did Kenobi intentionally lose, or did he see the curtains on the wall, and knowing he was going to lose anyway, choose that moment to provide an escape for Luke, Han, Leia etc? Could Kenobi have beaten Vader in ANH legitimately? I am gonna say hell no. Either way, both of the two duelists that have a win over Darth Vader lose their lives in the rematch. When all is said and done, Darth Maul can claim one victory over a Jedi, while Darth Vader can claim multiple victories over Jedi, and not counting his own internal battle, he manages to kill two Sith Lords too. Not too shabby.

 

Anakin certainly seems to think he's more powerful than Palpatine while talking to Padme on Mustafar. But is this actually the case? I thought Lucas had said that Palpatine was the strongest Force-user in the saga. Anakin may not know the full extent of Palpatine's power.

 

I see what you are saying; I guess I see these "lucky" outcomes as "the will of the force." So really... If there's a duel, the one who wins is the one who furthers the force's agenda... heheheheh

 

Well, other than one man.

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I know that Gillard said that Vader was a 9 like Palp, Yoda, and Mace as well as that Lucas has said his injuries were why Vader was no longer as powerful as Palpatine. I do think it makes Obi-Wan's victory look strange though.

 

All the dialogue in the PT about Anakin's extreme power is phrased in the future tense. And Lucas' statements in the commentaries also refer to Anakin's potential.
In the novelization ( which is EU ), Mace does not say that Anakin is the "most powerful Jedi ever". He says that "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive" ( I'm not even sure that he's including Yoda in that statement ). Later in the same book, Anakin refers to himself as "one of the most powerful Jedi", a less hyperbolic claim.

 

I thought that was just lightsaber-skill level.

 

It is, but if the skill difference between an 8 and a 9 as Gillard says it is that would be a huge advantage for Vader.

 

I stand corrected, LOL...although, you could argue that in this case, it was Luke avenging his loss to Vader earlier...But, you can't hold a dad accountable when he realizes his kid is finally better than he is at something...

 

A good topic Sith_Rising, and I concur with your points. You really can't have it both ways. I personally think its pretty obvious who the winner on average would be in a fight between the three, which is Darth Maul. The screenplay makes it obvious, as does the simple fact is that all Sith Lords have their niche, Maul's is lightsaber combat.

Also, the Starwars PREQUEL CHRONICLES, written by Sansweet states that Darth Maul was second only to Sidious in lightsaber combat. You can't get more official than that.

 

You can given that Lucas has said

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."

and Gillard has said

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi".

and

"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."

 

And if I may add that in the Novel for TPM, Qui Gon's opinion of Maul was that the Zabrak was the "best he'd ever seen" in terms of light saber skills.

Maul gets bashed because he didn't say much.
But when ur as good as he was, who needs to talk?

One other note, Maul's bio states that he "mastered" more than one form.
That means he didn't just learn saber skills, he excelled.

 

Maul was definitely a skilled saberist but he comes up short when comparing with two saberists who have mastered every form, one who created a new form, and one who is the Chosen One.

 

If you are implying that Mace had an advantage over Maul because of Vaapad, then I disagree. Maul mastered Juyo, while the Jedi believed it to be incomplete. Maul used Juyo in the opposite way that Windu did. Windu wanted the darkside to pass through the user, while the Sith would not. IMO, at teh very least: Maul on Juyo = Mace on Vaapad. Too similar for me to call it any other way.

 

I don't even think Maul's skill with Juyo alone was equal to Mace's with Vaapad. Overall given his Teräs Käsi and Jar'Kai knowledge possibly, but even then I just don't see a Vaapad using Mace having much trouble with Maul given that every advantage of Maul's would also be working against him given Vaapad's "superconducting loop." The main difference I see between Vaapad and Juyo is that Juyo is a just an incredibly potent saber form while Vaapad lets Mace use his enemy's strength as his own.

 

My favourite word on these boards is "obviously", a good second is "clearly." I find that I use them too quite frequently

Nothing is obvious or clear. If it was, then Maul would have won over Obi-Wan, and Anakin would have won over Obi-Wan. IMHO, Yoda would also have won over Sideous... (but that's another discussion)

Now, Obi-Wan was less skilled than Maul - I think most of us can agree on that. It also concurs with what Yoda says about the dark-side; that it's quicker, easier, more seductive... At a young age, which Maul and OBW were at in TPM, the dark-side would give them an edge. When they mature, the dark-side should play less of a role. Remember, it is when OBW thinks clearly and lets go of the dark-side that he defeats Maul. It is the exact same that happens in his duel with Anakin.

The difference between the two duels was that OBW and Qui-Gon most likely thought they would be on top of things. They weren't. When Qui-Gon died, OBW went ballistic. He came out a 110%, actually driving Maul back - but Maul proved too skilled. In his duel with Anakin, OBW fights much more calculated. He knows that Anakin is too good to stand toe to toe with, so he constantly backs, defending as few others could. It was good tactics, and wise. And I'm not so sure that OBW wouldn't beat Anakin again...

Force power-wise, Anakin doesn't appear to be much more powerful than OBW, which the power-duel shows. Maul is more unknown as he doesn't use the force much. Interesting to notice though, that Maul had to use the force to take out OBW...

 

The novelization of TPM was written before the other two films, where we would see who was the best and who wasn't. Maul was good, but there were others who were better. Maul did win the fight, but he lost the war due to his arrogance.

 

OB1's victory over Maul was mainly due to 1 big factor: Maul's arrogance. Not skill.

His Victory over Vader was basically the same. While Vader was stronger, his arrogance led him to making a stupid mistake that OB1's experience allowed him to take advantage of.

Both Maul & Vader were better fighters. Though OB1 did hold his own. but in the end of the day, it was the mistakes that they made that allowed OB1 to win.

 

I am still confused about this quote. Is Nick Gillard saying that Anakin was a level 8 before Anakin turned to the dark side or is he just saying that choosing the dark side will make you a level 9 if you are a level 8?

 

Yes.

 

Thanks!