ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

I very much doubt that Rey will be pulled to the lure the dark-side. This is the final movie in the Skywalker Saga, there are tons of other characters in the movie besides Rey, Kylo and Palps. Unless they want to make this movie an eight hour epic, such "will she won't she? will be as exciting as watching the international cross stitching championships.

 

But you know they want Rey to be challenged towards her own dark and light side. they just left it till the last film to really get into that stuff. perhaps abit too late. even if we know how its gonna go down. Rey still needs that challenge.

 

What do you mean the seduction will be there waiting for you to fall? It's not an entity? It's not your shadow constantly following you. It's just something you desire. If you choose not to want it, you're no longer in danger of being seduced. You keep making seem like it's this "thing", who wants to trick you for as long as you live.

Why is force lightning dark side? Lightning is a naturally occurring phenomena. Up until the Sith have used it selfishly, and aggressively as a means to inflict damage, or to kill someone. Why if Rey uses lighting to help someone?

Is Yoda doing dark side because he contains Dooku's lighting and throws it back at him? Is Ghost Yoda doing dark side because he burns a tree to shock Luke?[/QUOTE]

 

This is what I'm confused by - you're talking about Luke again, but Luke and Rey aren't the same character. You keep starting in on why Rey doing a thing is dumb by describing a thing Luke didn't do. They're not the same person. I don't get this leap.

They're being framed as such, absolutely, and have been throughout the story. Han as her surrogate father in TFA. Luke as her teacher in TLJ. And now Leia as her teacher/mother in ROTS.

I don't understand how her denying Palpatine and not giving into whatever self-doubt a connection with him would cause erases the theme of family, especially if she's choosing to be part of the Skywalker family as an alternative. Especially in contrast with Kylo, who WAS part of the Skywalker family and chose specifically to abandon it for the sake of pursuing his grandfather's ambitions as fed to him by Palpatine.

 

I agree that you don't have to compare her to Luke. A lot of the decisions she decides on don't make sense on their own merits.

 

I don't see why they'd have to go that route though, there is nothing wrong with showing inherently good people being morally opposed and detatched to the dark-side. That shows the strength of a hero. And why Luke is one of the best Protagonists in cinematic history. I don't really need angst in my fairy tale set in space. There is no reason why she should even be tempted at this point. As you say the time for that has long passed, to have her conflicted in this final movie will reek of too many writers wanting different things for one character and as a result the character -any character- becomes far less interesting.

 

The theme for what this saga has been about is relevant to Rey's trilogy within the saga. Luke's redemption of Vader is fundamental to that theme. Rey's theme being about how evil family must be nothing but escaped and erased undermines that theme of the saga. It's very straightforward.

Han isn't a Skywalker. He's a Solo.

Luke didn't teach her S, and she lied to him and attacked him.

A person isn't a surrogate mother automatically by teaching someone something. They have to actually develop that kind of bond narratively. You know who has actually been "framed" as having a familial relationship with Rey? Finn. You're erasing him, something this trilogy and many fans of this trilogy have not shied away from.

Because it's not about family at that point. It's about the Skywalkers bizarrely getting the special privilege of blanket forgiveness for mass murder in a set of rules that applies to no one but them. Vader's redemption only worked because his son loved him and that was something we could understand. Rey forgiving mass murder in a stranger but not her own family doesn't support the theme of family. Kylo isn't Rey's family. He's her tormentor.

 

The point of the PT was to show that even something as simple as jealousy could lead to the dark side. hense the no attachment rule. you can get angry or reckless and be lured on the dark side. presumbaly then will you feel the desire.

Star wars lore i guess.

And Rey doesn't use it to help anyone. she accident destroys the ship she is trying to move out the way with the force.

I think this is meant to be different. using and defense is different. defense never attack.

Because its been a star wars trope. even Luke was challenged by the dark and the light.

 

well yes when Vader taunts him about Leia, sure. Then he quickly snaps out of it.
Sounds like that is Rey's moment in TROS with the lightning. It won't go further than that Isuspect.

 

But your interpretation of Rey's theme is really reductive? And again, seems to be suggesting that it obliterates the larger themes and prior character arcs if it plays out in that very reductive way, and I'm confused by why you're making that leap. It doesn't make sense. Her choosing not to try and redeem Palpatine doesn't mean "evil family must be nothing but escaped," and even if it did - pursuing the notion within this family-oriented story of what happens when a family member is beyond your help is worthwhile, and this angle is a good way to do it, especially when you add Kylo's dark mirror to the mix: If she's denying a Palpatine lineage due to how completely far gone he is, specifically to join the Skywalker family, and through that action is helping Kylo rejoin the family as well, as per the wishes of his mother, and father, and uncle: then how is that underlining the notion that "evil family must be nothing but escaped and erased." Her choosing a healthy family and helping save a blood-member of it despite his evil deeds FEEDS the overarching familial theme you're championing, it doesn't nullify it.

I simply don't agree with your rigid interpretations of what family is in this movie, what it can be, and what it represents, and I think there's an inherent contradiction in your interpretation of how the overarching theme of family can be represented. If Rey's denying Palpatine proves that "evil family must be nothing but escaped and erased" undermines the saga as a whole, how do you square that with believing Kylo is unforgiveable and unredeemable?

It's a no-win situation you're clinging to. If a blood-line Skywalker family member gets redeemed, it's bad, because he doesn't deserve the redemption due to his being a genocidal fascist mass-murdering abuser. But if a non-blood-line character JOINS the Skywalker family and helps save an actual blood-line Skywalker while denying galactic evil, that's... also bad?

It's internally inconsistent. I don't understand what solution to this story you're looking for.

 

Again, I'm talking about the saga's theme and how Rey's story fits into it.

Are you unironically calling the Skywalkers a "healthy family"? lol I think we are at a cross-roads. You're on Venus, I'm on Mars. Or something.

Kylo isn't blood related to Rey Palpatine. Your point makes no sense.

 

By the way, i really dont like how Skywalkers were turned into pre-destined "Hitlers" by ST.
Anakin became bad guy not because of lineage. It was the chain of tragic events mixed up with personality traits. Thats why his fall felt like the fall of a human being. He was a guy who became evil because bad stuff happened to him. Its his choice.

And Ben, given the lack of context, looks like being born a Hitler. Which is ridiculous joke of a writing. Especially with Han saying "There is too much Vader in him".
No, dumbass, there is no the gene of genocidal maniac in human beings. Its just nurture, character's choice and chain of bad events.

And not only that - look at how SW writers double down on an absurd concept:
https://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-comics-december-2019-solicitations/

Darth Vader isnt some sort of genetically modified violent creature. Its just a name. Do you really had THAT lack of creativity on your character's motivation that you need to literally bring iconic villain as a source of said character's reasons to being evil?

It really triggers me they have to root Kylo's motivation into Vader's figure, especially in such dumb way as some genetic heritage.

The same comes to the Skywalker's family overall. They werent genetically modified to be evil. At least, there is no info on that. Stop cover character's bad deeds with some lineage bs. Let them do bad stuff on themselves and answer for that.

Thats bull**** writing right here.

 

Well there is another leak that suggested she attacks Kylo and nearly kills him because of the dark side pull. she then retreats, takes Kylos ship and hides herself away.

I dunno how that leak fits in with the new one. its all very chinese whispery right now.

 

And? When has Rey been jealous? How did someone graduate to become a Jedi? How did Obi-wan become a Knight? It wasn't just killing Maul. It was his ability to resist the darkside that finally proved he could be a Jedi.

What happened when Luke - who had plenty of attachments - 'touched' the dark side in ROTJ? He pulled himself back. In that very moment he learned not to be possessive, etc, etc, and learned how to resist the tempation to quickly become angry, etc etc. He proved himself to be a jedi. Which is what yoda said earlier in the movie. Once learned, you now have that in your tool belt. You know how to resist it. It's not something you forget the next day, because the 'Seduction" came back at breakfast.

So? Rey isn't mastering herself yet. Doesn't mean she's being seduced. Sounds like she's following the same path every young Jedi in the saga goes through. Stepping closer to the dark side in themselves, until they finally defeat it. Or...know how to resist that urge.

And remember, once a Jedi, there were only 20 who had fallen or left the order. So it seems like once you accomplished the task of knowing how to resist those base emotions that lead to dark side, you were on the right path of knowing how to do so for your life. Certainly not like "Seduction" follows your around everyday waiting for you to fall to the dark side.

Was Yoda defending himself from that tree? Seemed like Yoda attacked a tree just to scare Luke. He even laughed as he did it. Bad Yoda. Evil Yoda.

 

well yea there is also that, but I will have to see it to see how it is done.
Not to take this thread off topic but I strongly endorse the opinion Obi-Wan tapped into the dark side to defeat Maul in TPM. Not because it was the only way he could win (though it probably was for him at that particular time in his life) but because of anger at his masters defeat. But nobody I've seen either in fandom or out of it bats an eye at that.

 

The message seems more like: if you are a Skywalker, then you can be complete garbage and you still get a free ticket to redemption because family, if you have another name or lineage and are complete garbage, then...you are complete garbage and need to be killed asap (probably twice). Even though at the same time ironically "only a Palpatine is the bestest hero ever in the story of Skywalker failure".

The Skywalkers are diminished and yet still meant to be exalted at the same time. Which doesn`t work so well because they are so diminished, they don`t deserve exaltation in the narrative. It shows pretty well why wanting to have your cake and eating it, too, just doesn`t work.

Trying to hand-wave it with some purple prose of how the Skywalkers supposedly took Rey under their wings and it makes for a beautiful theme of found family when at best Leia has a real relationship with her but Rey never really needed training or was always more or less Princess Purity doesn`t help, it just makes me roll my eyes.

Exactly. Since when is "Darth Vader" part of DNA now? What is this, Jurassic World? Is Ben Solo the SW version of the Indoraptor or something?

 

It's ridiculous to say that Rey calling herself Skywalker is about Leia at all. That's basically saying that Leia's "found" family (the Organas) are irrelevant. Only her bloodline matters.

 

This seems really un-generous though. How is that the lesson being taken here? Do people honestly think the message of these first two films is intended to tell people that you can be Kylo Ren and things will work out for you? Was the message of the OT and the PT "being Darth Vader will work out just fine?" I don't see that as being the lesson being picked up by the majority of filmgoers, nor do I see that lesson for myself in my own viewings. Being Kylo Ren seems like it really sucks, and while I pity him, I don't think he deserves redemption, or a romance with Rey, or anything particularly good to happen to him. However, I also feel like "deserve" often doesn't have much to do with notions of "redemption," that redemptive acts are more about the goodness in people that allow for such acts to even be possible. Anakin's "redemption" works best in Return of the Jedi because it's a reflection on Luke, not because Anakin "deserved" the redemption. He frankly doesn't, and nothing that happened in the Prequels, not even the added prophecy, made that case. If anything, it worsened it. But the redemption works on an emotional level anyway because the question of "deserve" is muted in the light of Luke's efforts to allow it to even be possible. It's not really a "reward" for Anakin. It's a reward for LUKE.

Again, there's a lack of generosity here. I don't know where "purple prose" is coming in (unless you're criticizing my post, but I don't think it was very purple, LOL), but so far as the films go: The Skywalkers did take her under their collective wings. Han did, Luke did, and Leia did. It's all right there onscreen. She's not "Princess Purity" at any point in those instances, and the Skywalkers are also not anywhere near a perfect family. But they're definitely a healthier alternative to NO family, or worse, a Palpatine-centered one.

So again, that brings me to my prior question: If denying evil for the sake of choosing a healthier alternative, if leaving your harmful, poisonous family behind and choosing to join the better alternative is bad... but helping the bad member of that alternative family see the error of their ways and rejoin his predecessors in the light is also bad - what's the solution you guys are asking for? What is the endgame you're moving towards?

Because I don't see a whole lot of ways out of the inherent contradiction. If Skywalkers are bad, and Palpatines are bad, and Kylo is unforgiveable, and Rey is stupid, what's the answer, if the answer isn't the one Abrams appears to be moving towards, involving the prospects of adoption, forgiveness, and acceptance.

 

I think from a corporate standpoint such a thing wouldn't even have crossed their minds.
Although I do see your point, the casual fan and most movie audiences wouldn't even know Leia Organa is a thing (despite ROTS making it obvious as obvious can be) Disney is about profit, and that means pleasing the people that go to the movie theater and create numbers for the box office.

It's only us SW nerds that hang round a SW forum every day that would say or even think "hey hold up! what about the Organas!! "

 

Why does Rey have to save Satan? Because that's what Palpatine represents in this universe. He's not a noble warrior who got corrupted. He just .... IS. He's like a cosmically malevolent force.

Luke saved Vader because he sensed the conflict in him. And he knew, via Ben, that he was once a good man. Can't say the same for good ol' Palps.

 

The sole reason Kylo Ren is most likely gonna be redeemed is because of his lineage so yes, things work out for him better than all the other evil guys in the movies because of who he is. Heck, that is even the prevailing argument why he deserves/needs redemption: because of who he is.

Han and Rey got along fine, Luke was nothing to her and apparently she has a good relationship with Leia. Still not remotely enough that I buy into her wanting to join that family but I fully believe that is how JJ will play it. My reference to purple prose was what I predict will be in the movie in that regard. Some cheesy, shallow and (for me) thouroughly unconvincing stuff.

What is the answer? Well, at this point none really that can be reached. I don`t believe any satisfying conclusion can be reached now. I consider the damage too great for that. What I believe is happening is that JJ will try to please everyone and anyone via compromises but that is gonna fall flat, for example I think Rey just taking the Skywalker name at the end is supposed to be a little band-aid for ReySky fans but I already predict that not working. In its own way it`s worse than proudly saying "screw you, she isn`t a Skywalker".

While I agree that general audiences won`t think too deeply about it, I think everyone noticed that never once in any movie Leia was ever refered to as "Leia Skywalker". Noone knows her under that moniker in pop culture. She is either known as Princess Leia or maybe as General Organa and now apparently "Master Leia". But even for randos, it feels weird if you take the name in someone`s honor that they never had.

 

Fair point

 

But do you honestly believe that's what THE FILM is saying? That Leia, when she asks Han to talk to him - and that Han, when he does talk to him - is trying to get him back because things should just "work out better for him?" Do you honestly believe that's why Luke tells Leia nobody's really gone, and why he apologizes to Ben for failing him? I don't agree with that interpretation of the film's messaging at all. I also don't agree with this:

Which reads like going out of your way to minimize the shorthand that all these movies provide for friend-and-familial relationships. Luke hung out with Ben Kenobi for all of a day but nobody questions the depth of that mentorship. Aside from the fact that time never would permit it, the films have never gone in for novel-length establishment of relationships. They're all quick hits that establish the connections enough to build on them as the plots progress. Han and Rey didn't just "get along fine," she considered him a father figure (Kylo pulls it out of her head) and he apparently wanted her to be a daughter figure (he offered her the gig). Luke was literally a myth come true to her. That she was disappointed in the reality of him doesn't mean the connection wasn't established through their time together. It doesn't get erased by that conflict.

If that's not enough establishment (certainly enough to have worked when contrasted against similar relationships as established in Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi between Luke, Leia, Han, Ben, and Yoda) and the definition of family is now being considered too loose to legitimately count (as was happening upthread when the idea of Rey joining the Skywalker family was derided due to Han's last name being Solo, Leia's last name being Organa, the Skywalkers being tainted by the darkside, etc) what level of establishment were people expecting? What alternative was supposed to have been provided?

If you think the whole prospect is legitimately hopeless from a storytelling and a character perspective, I guess I just... don't get it. If there's literally no way for the premises as presented to be considered valid and their execution to turn out even remotely positive, in any way... what's the point? Where is all this going?

 

To the contrary, by all rights she should celebrate (discreetly, of course, because Leia). There is not one reason Kylo dying would be a bad thing for his victim, except in the most generic way that one feels sad when an SPCA commercial plays. I think she'd be able to handle it, and I also think she would be relieved to not have him force-stalking her like the leaks suggest.

It's absolutely a choice. Kind of the whole point of the OT and the PT.

Wait, now there are supposedly rules about force lightning but literally everything else in lore is flexible enough that powers can be spontaneously generated and established lore can be overwritten at whim? Which is it?

That's a really superficial read on Anakin's story. It wasn't just jealousy and anger, it was possessive love. Love is supposed to be a positive trait, but the possessive part is what led to Anakin's downfall. The jealousy and anger were a symptom of that, not the disease in and of themselves.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but the ST established the precedent of her feeling compelled to save Satan Jr. for no reason, so it does logically follow that she should similarly feel compelled to save Satan Sr., especially given that he hasn't done anything to harm her personally as Kylo had and that he's allegedly a relative.