ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

You’re right! Because tangential arguments never occur in threads. You got me!


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There was nothing in TFA that made Rey out to be a fangirl (get ready, Ender gifs incoming). Nothing. Knowing basic history and thinking Skywalker was a myth doesn't make her a fangirl. She didn't know any of it was real, so she obviously didn't know that much about the Skywalkers.
I'm confident JJ is not going to make Rey's arc in RoS revolve around her being a fangirl. That's a hella weak arc to begin with, and she should have at least a little self esteem by now.

 

I thought the context of our debate was pretty clear but w/e.

 

I think it’s funny that many here liked or loved Rey and her character in TFA, but I guess apparently only because they thought she’d turn out to be a Skywalker or Solo later on. And now that it’s looking like she’s neither in TROS, they’re turning on her character not just in TLJ but in TFA too.

To me, It’s hypocrisy at its fullest

 

Look at you reading nefarious motivations into people's opinions on a general level while totally ignoring stated reasons for those opinions. And this while insulting people for their opinions on a fictional character. That's cute, and so very internet of you.

 

naw I liked Rey/Finn/Poe in TFA but to me RJ ruined them and every character in TLJ with bad writing and out of character actions from Rey. Sure I prefer if she's a Skywalker/Solo but even just judging this based on the 2 movies put out, weak sauce.

 

More like, how very perceptive of me.

 

@ForceGhostPrincessLeia

Ask and ye shall see receive. However, I’ll hide them in the spoiler tag for anyone who doesn’t want to see them.

I couldn’t care less about any of JJ’s original intentions because we are well past those now and the IX leaks indicate he has the good sense to build off of VIII’s ending developments anyway.

It’s about where the narrative is moving toward for IX and I absolutely expect that she will know who the Emperor/Darth Sidious is and that him being the last living member of her family will be a nightmare for her as a result. If you instead expect her, after all of these moments below, to instead be like, “Who? What did he do? Oh really? I’m related to him? An Emperor you say?” then that’s your prerogative.

Spoiler

Grandpa offering up an arranged union for Kylo Ren to trick him since he knows he wants her.

Keeping them unrelated to better maintain the Reylo setback elements that are there.

Rey’s parents really being junkers who are dead in a Jakku desert.

The grandchildren of the PT working together at the end.

Kylo Ren killing Hux for betraying him.

More mind bridge action between Rey & Kylo Ren.

Kylo Ren mask off back half of film again.

Rey Palpatine lightning!

Finn joining Poe for some bromance B-plot fun.

More Leia force action and bonding with Rey.

Kylo Ren fighting the Knights of Ren to help Rey.

Kylo Ren sacrificing himself to stop Sidious to help Rey.

Rey healing Ben.

Rey Palpatine reveal leading to more manipulation on her issues that Kylo Ren and VIII exposed.

Dark Side Rey vision.

Bendemption.

Rey’s weakness being reinforced as mental as I said.

The journey back to Ahch-To to ensure it rises in story prominence.

These exciting developments built off of VIII are what matter as we head into IX making VII an intro to the characters strengths and who they were before this journey began and not much more so that VIII & IX can really get more into the totality of who they are as characters now. Especially the grandchildren of these two:

 

She looked badass versus the Praetorian guard. I’m never worried about her combat skill or survivor instincts in battle or in scavenging. The bigger battle is within her and I couldn’t be more excited to see her win that battle despite the manipulations of her grandfather and Kylo Ren.

 

Funny, TFA Rey wasn't really in danger of being manipulated by anyone imo. Even in TLJ, she didn't fall for Kylo manipulating her. Snoke is dead so can't manipulate her again, and one would think she learned from that failure. So why would she be vulnerable to manipulation now?

 

In this galaxy he’s the greatest manipulator of them all. He’ll have her weaknesses pin pointed and tell her anything to get what he ultimately wants.

 

Because Rey's weakness is her internal struggle for an identity and knowing her parents. If Palpatine, the most evil guy in all the galaxy, turns out to be the one person who can fill that void, I can see why Rey would feel conflicted. Not so much her wanting to join Palpatine as much as her wondering if that makes her a bad seed if she was descended from him, especially since we've seen her embrace the dark side rather easily on multiple occasions in both previous films.

What Luke and Leia never really grappled with in the OT was the fact that one of the most evil men in the galaxy was their father and how that could influence their own nature and self-identities. It never made them look at themselves differently as much as it made Luke suddenly look at Vader differently and consider him worthy of redemption then. But there was nothing about Luke fearing the inevitability that Vader's darkness could be in him as well until the throne room scene in ROTJ. Dark Empire did a good job of really fleshing out that concern and the parallels it has to TROS makes me even more excited for Rey's story.

 

Maybe I lack imagination but I have a hard time seeing a scenario where a Palpatine blood relation impacts Rey all that much.

If she’s some kind of experiment then maybe she thinks she’s a monster that’s not worthy of love?

If she’s his grandfather then ok? Why is that such a big deal? He’s obviously not the people she remembers that left her behind.




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Except Rey already dealt with all of that. Every bit. I don't understand why anyone would expect her to become an imbecile over Palpatine. She already knows he's bad. She already knows she's special and has chosen to do good with her powers. Suddenly she's supposed to go through a Sandy-wearing-leather-smoking-cigarettes-but-with-killing-the-galaxy phase? That's not who she is, and she already confronted her identity issues. Twice.

 

I mean MSW leaks have Rey asking Luke about palps's weakness doesn't sound like anyone who wants anything to do with old sheev.

 

Act 3 requires her to overcome her biggest test to her weaknesses. That biggest test now comes from family. I mean, I had a rough idea of how it could possibly play out that I hammered up on my phone but obviously with polish and more thought and setup they could do far more.

There are two dark side plays for her to be manipulated from Sidious. One is him going into his false sincerity routine and pretending he’s truly changed overtime and now understands the value of family.

The other is to try and enrage her. Either could work if done well.

For for the purposes of this one I’m just pasting what I did on my phone before to highlight some manipulation points he could aim to hit with false sincerity. I’ll spoiler tag it.

Spoiler

Quick attempt at how I could see the Sidious manipulation playing out in IX...

REY: This ends now.

SIDIOUS: Leave us.

(Servants leave)

SIDIOUS: You have no idea how long I’ve waited for this day...

To be... with family again.

REY: Don’t even try it. I came here to end you. To end this.

SIDIOUS: And I believe you. I can feel your anger growing. Anger is something I’ve known all too well. For years that’s all I had. But do you know, Rey, what’s even more powerful than anger?

(Rey refuses to answer)

SIDIOUS: Family. The Skywalkers taught me that.

REY: You know nothing of it! All you’ve done is destroy families.

SIDIOUS: History is written by the victors of course. However, families in our Empire thrived. They were safe. Protected.

REY: They needed protection from you.

SIDIOUS: Quite right, Granddaughter. For that is precisely the reason I sent your father away.

REY: Liar!

SIDIOUS: I don’t lie, Rey. Not any more. Your father was a kind boy. He deserved better. I couldn’t control my powers, you see. Oh, I thought I could. Thought I’d figured it all out. Thought I could use the Dark Side to protect the galaxy... But in the end... the Dark Side used me. Your father wasn’t safe around me back then. Can you imagine what it feels like to not know what might happen with your abilities?

(Rey now does)

REY: Prove it. Why should I believe you? About any of this?

SIDIOUS: That dagger you hold was your father’s and you know it.

(She looks at it once more and know this to be true)

SIDIOUS CONT’D: It’s the one thing I gave to him to protect himself with. Ancient. I thought that if he ever learned the power of the dark side as I had we’d meet again. Little did I know that same dagger would be a target of theft and lead to his and your mother’s deaths.

(Rey drops it to the ground. The thought of that enrages her and the room shakes)

Your father was not like me, Rey...

However... you... are.

We were destined for this moment, you and I. Both our lives leading to this. It’s all become clear. What my purpose is. Where our empire failed. It needed family. It needed someone like you. Someone who understood what the people need and how to keep them safe so that no one has to endure what you did. I’ve changed Rey. Learned so much. We can stop the First Order. Stop Ben Solo and end the mistake I made with Darth Vader that lives on in him. Won’t you let me help you to end this, Rey? I beg you. Let’s do this together. Then you can make the galaxy precisely as you wish.

(Ben Solo enters room)

BEN SOLO: Rey! Don’t listen to him!

SIDIOUS: Not a step closer! Stay away from her! I won’t let you harm her any more!

(Turning to Rey)

SIDIOUS CONT’D: Rey, he cares nothing of family and only of power. He wishes to use you to kill me as he did Snoke.

BEN SOLO: Rey, it was him who sent Ochie to kill your parents. Only once he realized your power and what you could do for him did he care about you. He tried to offer you to me so that we would rule together.

SIDIOUS: Preposterous. I said no such thing. We can end him together.

REY: SILENCE!!! Both of you!!! Neither of you can be trusted! Neither of you will change! And neither of you have what I’m looking for. Not any more.

(Rey ignites her saber)

SIDIOUS: Very well.

(Sidious raises his hands and both Rey & Ben levitate and turn sideways. Both fight this but cannot.)

SIDIOUS CONT’D: However, that is not the case for me. You two both have precisely what I’ve been looking for my whole life and now that power is mine!

(Sidious begins using their power to rejuvenate himself and by the end he looks healthier and as he did in ROTS)

 

That's a fair point.

I think taking everything together, at that point Rey was throughly disillusioned with Luke and very cut off from her support group, for lack of a better word (Han was dead, Finn was elsewhere, and I don't think she was that close to Chewie) and she was constantly getting Force Skypes from Kylo. I think there was the potential to get there from all that, even if Rian Johnson didn't quite stick the landing on that point. IMHO, I'm willing to accept it (esp. since we get to the Force vision right away, which is Rey's main motivator for going after Kylo and that does make sense), but I will admit that I'm only just willing to.

 

I thought you were all about Rey Kenobi and the grandchildren of Anakin and Obi Wan...

 

Kylo Ren comic is out - got a nice Solo smirk going on it too

 

If all this stuff, this connection between Kylo and Rey is the damn dyad, what will be the deal with Rey after Kylo dies?

I do see a danger in making a character too dependent of the villain. Just as with Harry after Voldemort dies...