ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

An argument very often used by anti-Reylo to claim that Kylo didn't kill Snoke to save Rey. RJ actually said that Kylo knew he would betray Snoke while he was with Rey in the elevator, not before Rey came on the Supremacy:

"In my mind, he walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke but he doesn't know yet exactly what the mechanism is and what his opportunity is going to be. But he's gone in there with the intent of, whether it's now or whether it's later or whenever it is, when he brings Rey in there, he's had that connection with her and what he says in the elevator... from that, in my head I thought, Okay, he knows he's going to do this but he doesn't know how yet and when he sees that opportunity with that lightsaber next to him and sees Snoke distracted and realizes he can give this an attempt, he goes for it."

So objectively, RJ's can be interpreted differently wether it's anti or pro-Reylo who read them: Kylo could want to betray Snoke only for his own profit, as he could want to betray him also because he knows he will hurt and kill Rey. Don't get me wrong: I personnally think his main motivation was is his own profit. He was sure that Rey would support him, so he took the chance. But he didn't purposelly let Snoke torturing Rey, waiting for his time to come. It happened exactly like RJ described it, and I think that Rey's suffering was a supplementary motivation for doing it. Daisy stated that Kylo thought he did the right thing for Rey.

 

I am curious as to what people think Rey and Kylo saw in their vision the hand-touch scene (I really hope they tell us in IX)

I liked how the Force themes played and we heard a crack of thunder when their fingers touched too

What Rey saw: We know she saw the shape of Kylo's future clearly and that she saw him turn - but why were tears pouring down her face when she saw it? Why did she instantly get angry at Luke and fly off so quickly to the FO flagship? She says "I'll help you, I saw it" Did Rey see herself with Kylo in the future in a relationship, did she maybe see their children? We're constantly told that Rey is looking for belonging and family... if this is what she saw then it would certainly be enough to bring her to tears at this moment.

What Kylo saw: The novel tells us that Kylo saw Rey's past and this is how he knows her parents are dead and that Rey has been lying to herself since she was a child. However another thing he says in the elevator is "I saw something too, because of what I saw, I know you'll be the one to turn, I know who your parents are" Rey gives him such a strange look at that point, like he has discovered her darkest secret. My theory is that when Rey's parents sold her to Unkar and we see their ship taking off afterwards, 5 year old Rey unwittingly uses the Force to pull their ship out of the sky to make them "come back." This causes it to crash and kills her parents. It would have seemed like an accident and as a young child maybe Rey created an alternate version of the truth in her mind to help her survive the trauma and explain what happened. Maybe Kylo sees her kill her parents and this causes him to think she would sympathise with him, but maybe he was not aware how deeply she had repressed the memory.

 

Until I'm proven the contrary, I think Rey had a partial vision of what would happen in the Throne room: she probably saw Kylo killing Snoke and her alliance with him against the Pretorian guard, but didn't see what would come after. I highly doubt she saw her future children with Ben Solo I'd also like TROS to come back on her vision, but for some reasons I doubt it will. It would be more interesting to focus on why she trusted Kylo before she had the vision.

I also believed in the possibility that Rey had accidentally killed her parents, but then why Kylo didn't tell her so if that's what he saw? "hey, you've killed your parents too, you're a murderer just like me, join me!". it would have been much more effective than the story he fed her with

 

She did confront him about Han's death. I think that's when she really started to have compassion for him. She originally thought Kylo was the one who failed Luke, but when Luke finally told her what really happened from his POV, she said Luke was the one who failed him.

Rey: Why did you hate your father? [Ren turns around shirtless] Do you have something? A cowl, or something you could put on? Why did you hate your father? Give me an honest answer. You had a father who loved you! He gave a damn about you!
Ren: I didn't hate him.
Rey: Then why?
Ren: "Why" what? [pauses] "Why" what? Say it.
Rey: Why did you... why did you kill him? I don't understand.
Ren: No? Your parents threw you away like garbage.
Rey: They didn't!
Ren: They did, but you can't stop needing them. It's your greatest weakness. Looking for them everywhere, in Han Solo, and now in Skywalker. Did he tell you what happened that night?
Rey: Yes.
Ren: No. He'd sensed my power, as he senses yours, and he feared it.
Rey: Liar.
Ren: Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be.

Ren: You're not alone.
Rey: Neither are you. It isn't too late.

Rey: You failed him by thinking his choice was made. It wasn't! There's still conflict in him. If he would turn from the dark side, that could shift the tide! This could be how we win!
Luke: This is not going to go the way you think.
Rey: It is. Just now, when we touched hands, I saw his future. As solid as I'm seeing you. If I go to him, Ben Solo will turn.
Luke: Rey... don't do this.
Rey: [shows Luke his father's lightsaber] Then he is our last hope.








I think Rey cried because she was so overwhelmed by what she saw, she really believed in it just like Anakin and Luke did, and that was her mistake: thinking turning away from the darkside would be this easy. Now, she know she can't "fix" him, he has to realize that he doesn't have to "kill" all his past, he could take learn from it so he could move forward just like Rey had to stop being in denial and to stop waiting for her parents on Jakku.



I don't expect to see children if they end up in a romantic relationship, at least not unless there is some kind of epilogue scene set some time in the future.
Honestly, I'm just hoping to see a mention of the living and cosmic Force in IX.

 

I'm more interested in what Luke saw.
Kylo is not a reliable narrator by any stretch of the imagination, Rey's had the force for what, two days at this point, and Snoke indicates it was a trap in the first place.
And motivations are important, but Rey is smart enough to know there are other available sperm donors in the galaxy. IF she's crying because she saw herself having a baby with him (which I personally think has zero chance of being what happened), it would be because he's literally the last person in the galaxy anyone should procreate with.

 

Luke told her that Snoke had already turned his heart but we don't know if he did reprehensible things before that. Did he murder someone? I agree the movie should have showed more of his motivations prior to his fall than just him thinking his parents abandoned him. Why does he worship Vader and what does he want to finish may be what we learn in TROS. Maybe it has something to do with whatever Vader is doing on Mustafar after his confrontation with "Padmé".

 

Well Ben was asking the mask to show him the darkness again. so what was this that ben was shown? how was he shown this? without a back story ben doesn't have much there beyond he is just an evil person.

 

In Rey/Kylo’s visions, I always thought they saw exactly what happened. Rey saw him turning on Snoke, Kylo saw her fighting alongside him. In their hubris, they both assumed that meant they’d succeeded in turning each other.

I don’t think there was any indication their visions went beyond what happened or else why wouldn’t they have fought harder for each other? Or left each other with some sense of ‘this isn’t over’? Instead we get Rey closing the door on him and Daisy saying she starts the movie with no sense Kylo can be redeemed any time soon.


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vader's Helmet probably did the same as momin's mask (Shows him Vader's fall like momin's shows his origin )

 

I forget the source but I think that Rey saw Kylo's future and Kylo saw Rey's past. However, they both also see what is possible in an alliance between them. I am not convinced that all Rey saw was them fighting together because then her error wouldn't be that she saw redeemed Ben in the future but it was one possible future; instead it would be she made a careless assumption. Her characterization works better the more she saw basically. It works better if it's the mistake of taking a Force vision as all-determining (a failure in reading possibilities into the future because the future is ever-changing) rather than just assuming that because Kylo and her share an enemy in Snoke they are on the same side regarding everything.

Regarding Luke, that's the one I don't need any further information on. Kylo Ren is horrible and has been doing terrible things and he has already destroyed much of what Luke loves. That is what Luke foresaw. The horror of what he is now in contrast to the boy he used to be is horror enough. I'm sure Luke 10 years ago would be horrified to learn in the future that Ben will become emperor of the galaxy, murder his own father, attempt to murder his mother, destroy the entire Jedi school, participate in the slaughter of millions, etc. I mean it is horrible enough to explain Luke's reaction.

 

This is what I assumed, but I also assume the scene was a late-addition and that's why we don't actually see their visions. We absolutely should have seen them of course. It's the kind of oversight that happens when something is being added late in the game to give motivation where there previously was none. If it was the cornerstone of Rey's motives, we would have seen what she saw to convince us that it made sense for Rey to feel she could succeed where she literally watched Han fail two days ago. The hubris was in Rey thinking she could impact Kylo more than his own loving, forgiving father, and this point is entirely ignored by the narrative.

The problem with them seeing nothing more than the PG fight scene is that wouldn't tell Rey that she has to embark on a suicide mission to get to that point. Rey could have simply concluded that it was destined for them to end up on the same side due to other circumstances besides Rey asking Kylo nicely to be good again. It doesn't necessitate Rey affirmatively putting her life on the line for Kylo, nor alone does it really even imply that.

 

xyzsvtabc: "[Marketing] talked about the culmination of the movie being a battle between Rey and Kylo."

Could be that culminating battle.

 

Interesting that the mask is on in this.

 

I have come to the conclusion that KyloBen is a complete well what's a good word for a emotional, needy, determined to burn his past person? I mean I think perhaps there is still good in Kylo, but he's so determined at this point in time and in TFA and TLJ to completely burn and bury his past, he has nothing left. He's like ah screw it.

It struck me that he still deeply loves his parents despite his dark side ways. I mean why would Snoke mock him with "You're no Darth Vader?"

In Anakin's 20 plus dark years he had no hope left for anything, until he found out about his son....I think DV/Anakin loved his son for Padme's and Luke's own sake which is why in, not a point of weakness as Snoke said, but in a point of strength he turned on the Emperor.

In Ben/Kylo's view he wanted to be as bad/evil/nasty as DV, so to do so, he "burned his past" aka killed his dad, who he loved, but thought, hey I can kill my dad I'll be powerful like my grandfather DV! It instead it backfired on him- gutted him, I mean why in the heck would Kylo be crying? He still loves his dad, but he wanted to burn his past more.

Then there is this.
"Rey: Why did you hate your father? [Ren turns around shirtless] Do you have something? A cowl, or something you could put on? Why did you hate your father? Give me an honest answer. You had a father who loved you! He gave a damn about you!
Ren: I didn't hate him.
Rey: Then why?
Ren: "Why" what? [pauses] "Why" what? Say it.
Rey: Why did you... why did you kill him? I don't understand.
Ren: No? Your parents threw you away like garbage.
Rey: They didn't!

Rey never got an answer, we the audience never got an answer, Kylo changed the subject and said something about "killing the past". Gah, no wonder I'm annoyed.

That being said, we better have a good solid reason for Kylo's dark side bit...else it'll make no sense to me.

Then there is Leia....I think she's the point of it all....from a father's love for a child and vs and now a mother's love for a child and vs. *sighs*

Rey is the new Jedi, new force user the one who will help "balance" the force...not that Anakin didn't, but maybe the force brought her to balance Anakin's line...dark and light and then grey and all that jazz.

I do want an epic lightsaber fight or something.....

Then there's Kylo's repaired helmet....he has no need for it...but he's determined on his path of darkness...hence the mask...but it also reminded me of "kintsugi."

By repairing broken ceramics it’s possible to give a new lease of life to pottery that becomes even more refined thanks to its “scars”. The Japanese art of kintsugi teaches that broken objects are not something to hide but to display with pride.
When a bowl, teapot or precious vase falls and breaks into a thousand pieces, we throw them away angrily and regretfully. Yet there is an alternative, a Japanese practice that highlights and enhances the breaks thus adding value to the broken object. It’s called kintsugi (金継ぎ), or kintsukuroi (金繕い), literally golden (“kin”) and repair (“tsugi”).

This traditional Japanese art uses a precious metal – liquid gold, liquid silver or lacquer dusted with powdered gold – to bring together the pieces of a broken pottery item and at the same time enhance the breaks. The technique consists in joining fragments and giving them a new, more refined aspect. Every repaired piece is unique, because of the randomness with which ceramics shatters and the irregular patterns formed that are enhanced with the use of metals.
https://www.lifegate.com/people/lifestyle/kintsugi

The force is broken in Anakin's line, Rey is going to fix it...no idea how, but she'll "fix" the force...she takes something old and broken and makes something new from it. Like Luke's lightsaber. Maybe she'll pass on the how to fix yourself to Kylo...if he asks...nicely...nah.

Or just the balance of the force itself.

• 

 

That's a really insightful analysis. I hadn't thought of Kylo's need to kill the past in that way before.

 

That is such a lovely observation and it would be a nice evolution of the theme of broken things in TLJ (the lightsaber, the helmet, the ship... arguably even dreams/visions).

 

https://skytalkers.com/2019/04/24/kintsugi-transformative-repair-a-meta/

 

I think people are reading alot into very vague statements. What Daisy considers 'satisfying' could be completely different then what many want as a satisfying ending.

 

I think "satisfying ending" has been a phrase they've all been coached to say, because Kathleen Kennedy also use this phrase a lot to describe the ending of the movie.
However it's a promise that the film can't possibly fulfill because you will never be able to satisfy everyone in this diverse and fickle fandom

 

If Daisy finds the end with Kylo "very satisfying", I doubt that pro-Reylo will find it "very satisfying". It's in this interview that she mentions her discussion with JJ Abrams (she says he was open to the actors' concerns). As I said before, I highly doubt that Reylo was ever central to the film and that JJ just changed everything to satisfy Daisy, but maybe he had them exchange a kiss in the last 5 minutes, and Daisy said: "please no"...

The whole quote transcripted by Sleemo:

So Daisy, you know, J.J. Abrams is back. Were you surprised by where he took your storyline with Kylo?

Daisy: Yes and no. I was surprised, because I had a meeting with J.J. like before the script had sort of become what it was, even though it was still moving pieces when we were filming—so I heard that and then I heard something different, and it was all sort of developing as we went. So I was surprised. But it felt, for me, very satisfying.

Like, in general, I think all the emotional stuff, like the whole film—it just felt really satisfying. Everything felt right. And J.J. is so open to everything that if you have a thought about something, you have a conversation, and you try other stuff.

Where do things stand between the two of you [Rey and Kylo] in IX, The Rise of Skywalker?

Daisy: The Rise of Skywalker. Um… Ah… [smiles] That will be revealed, I guess…

It will be satisfying?

Daisy: Yeah, it’s you know, it’s not like everything is hunky-dory and so there’s contention there, but it is explored in greater depth.

Oh it’s explored? In depth?

Daisy: [nods] In greater depth.


Maybe Reylo was developed in the first drafts of the movie, then Abrams heard all the concerns about it and decided to play it safe... All speculations of course... I still place my bet on an open ending, if Kylo survives.

 

Daisy Ridley: “[Rey]’s an ordinary girl who finds herself in extraordinary situations and she’s the embodiment of a strong and independent woman. Rey gets pushed beyond her limits and meets people and gets drawn into this great journey where she exceeds her own expectations and wants to do the right thing. She’s afraid at times but she learns to overcome her fears and face up to some very difficult challenges. Audiences are going to relate to her more in terms of her overall human qualities and character than her femininity.” “It’s important that more films are made where women are shown telling their own stories and that neither the female character nor her story is dependent on the male character. Rey has her own story and she’s doing her own thing in the film. We need to have more films where you have the female lead responsible for her own journey and where you see the story told more from her perspective.” “Absolutely not [will I become a sex symbol]! There are a lot of films where women are being oversexualised but this was not at all what happened in my case. I don’t consider myself to be a sex symbol and J.J. [Abrams] had no intention of treating my character that way.” (unknown date - before Star Wars: The Force Awakens released)

That was her attitude then and I doubt anything's changed.