ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Finn being a former stormtrooper will make Kylo realize that he too can break from the First Order. Once he does that Finn and Kylo will fall in love.

 

It’s...a monster hugging a woman who looks nothing like Rey...

 

But there is NO way to portray THIS particular relationship in a healthy way, given what has already happened on screen. Should SW focus on an entirely unhealthy relationship as #goals just because other movies put that trash out there? Is romanticizing an abusive relationship appropriate for a family film being released in 2019? I know some people think it's okay, but I'm not one of them. Yes, there is material out there that that was produced 50, 30, 5 years ago that should make people cringe and necessitates being viewed with recognition of problematic moments or themes. Society evolves, and we *should* know better by now. And since I know it's coming, just google Stockholm syndrome.

Um...because he's a bad guy and she's a good guy. There's nothing inherently romantic about that.

I've posted a lengthy analysis about his fascination with her in TFA elsewhere on this thread. Every single incident indicates that his "fascination" seems to hinge on his recognition of her. Considering their ages when she was left on Jakku, I sincerely hope we can agree that that recognition isn't of a romantic nature.

The one from when he forced himself into her against her will? Or the one Snoke created against their wills? Or the one like Luke and Leia shared?

Uh, what? If you mean that he broke the force barrier in her mind when he violated her, that's not a positive. If you mean she started experimenting with her newfound abilities out of necessity so she could escape from the restraints he put her in, that's not a positive. I honestly don't even know where this statement is coming from or what it's supposed to indicate.

There is no "new information" that makes anything Kylo has done to her even remotely acceptable in retrospect. Full stop.

Yeah, not convinced. If he's lonely, it's entirely his own construction. She's lonely because something horrible happened to leave her alone on Jakku as a child, and Kylo tried to make her even lonelier by killing her new people. Not a foundation for a relationship.

Snoke's punishment? No sympathy. Call to the light? Then just answer it and stop being a monster. No sympathy. Choosing not to kill Leia? I have never, EVER, considered killing my mother (or father, for that matter), do I get a prize for that? No sympathy. Inner conflict? Again, just stop being a monster already. Oh, you really want to be a monster? No sympathy. Leia wanting him home? That makes my heart ache for HER. No sympathy for the monster.

Yeah, we know RJ sidelined Finn completely. But pretending there wasn't a setup in TFA comparable to the setup for Leia/Han or Leia/Luke in ANH is indeed ignoring Finn's character in TFA. When that's done in favor of a clearly toxic and abusive ship, it's noticeably insensible.

Again, no new information could possibly excuse his past actions. They might be able to explain his fall, but he is still responsible for the atrocities he has committed.

It's so hard to be a woman. I fall madly in love with every man I see running barechested on the sidewalk. Oh, wait, it's JUST the ones who have abducted and tortured me and killed their fathers in front of me. Whew, dodged a bullet there!

 

This 'concept art' was fake, right?

 

Yeah and again, when JJ was talking about a romance in the ST before TFA came out, there is actually no evidence he was referring to Reylo. You have continued to decline to give any evidence besides referencing stuff that happened after TFA, which JJ explicitly said deviated from his vision.

In June 2013, JJ said there would be a central love story in the ST. The Art of TFA book starts in January 2013 and there is already concept art for Sam. In May 2013, Sam is a stormtrooper. The villain looks like Vader.

I think it’s real, and like a monster carry, it’s not romantic. It’s disturbing. It’s scary. She looks miserable, just like Rey looks miserable when Kylo is violently and intimately assaulting her mind. Traditionally, violence against miserable women is not romantic.

Edit - actually, I’m flipping through the art of TFA book right now and I’m not seeing that image. Clearly it was made after AD was cast and that girl looks nothing like Rey. I bet it’s just a random sketch that has nothing to do with the movie.

 

Concept art leaked before we had TFA, then it was never included in the book. It isn't created by fans.

It literally recreate a pose from photoshoot that's romantic.

 

no its in there keep looking

 

The one with AD is romantic. The one in SW world depicts a monster and a frightened girl. Total change in tone not going for romance, going for stalker.

And it’s not in the Art of TFA book, so it’s pretty irrelevant to the plot of TFA. That book shows the evolution of the story. Clearly that image didn’t make the cut.

 

Some people justify Reylo by comparing their relationship to old Gothic novels, and how those often deployed the trope of the dark, disturbed aristocrat who is guided towards the light by a love interest, often, a woman from the lower class.

But just because this trope is part of literary history doesn't somehow justify it ethically for modern use. Well, if the trope was thoroughly critiqued in modern narrative, then it could be subverted in a helpful way.

What we've seen though in TLJ is that Rian Johnson plays with the trope in a way that's much much too much like traditional Gothic uses. And that's why it's so nauseating.

 

The original photo might evoke some semblance of romance. The concept art does not. The woman in the photo doesn't look like she's being held against her will. She looks like she wants to be held by her partner. The woman in the art, looks much more melancholy and in despair. She actually has a much more sorrowful expression. It looks like a monster is about to take his catch back to his lair, and she has given up all hope. She looks like his victim. Not his love interest.

This is what the art reminds me of...

 

I already did quote things that might lead to something which could go either way but you seem to believe that I'm pushing for a romance when I clearly stated I wanted Rey to remain single but that I also believe that romance is also possible with Kylo or someone else. You don't want to think about the possibility that Rey and Kylo could end up together hence why you keep bringing up Finn, no matter how many time I quote them. So let's try again and before that let me clarify my position on this subject: I quote those because Rey and Kylo's dynamic is at the core of the ST which could mean they could end up either being in a platonic or romantic relationship (only if he redeems himself which is highly probable to me) and why I do not think this is a familial relationship.
https://www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/

https://www.fastcompany.com/9033123...and-building-bad-robot-into-a-hollywood-force

-JJ Abrams, The Force Awakens Commentary

-Maz and Rey, The Force Awakens

-Star Wars Databank

 

You gotta a page number? I can’t find it, and if it’s there, it’s not indexed as being Kylo Ren or Rey.

The above quotes with JJ emphasize RJ doing his own thing without planning with JJ. Obviously after JJ saw TLJ, his tone changed sharply.

In terms of this quote about the movie, he’s not talking about romance. You have to leap to conclude that. He’s talking about a scene that Rey isn’t in. He’s referencing these two plots finally meeting. Our antagonist learns of the protagonist. Commentary that’s actually explicitly romantic would be when JJ said DR played Rey as falling for Finn.

Again, not romantic. You’re assuming that. She’s the protagonist. He’s the antagonist and he’s violently violating her in this scene where they first meet. Of course they will have an interesting relationship moving forward. Normal, mainstream fiction literally never sets up romance in this way, and JJ literally says nothing about romance here. If you want to see it, more power to you, but this isn’t evidence of romance.

These aren’t arguments. I don’t get what your point is. I don’t assume romance in an abductor, the literal antagonist of the film, stealing a person against her will. I don’t even think that’s rational.

Again, nothing to do with Reylo. Still haven’t presented evidence.

She literally gets it from Finn in the film. This is evidence for FinnRey. Have you even seen TFA?

Great, what fairy tale romance is violent like Reylo? If you go for beauty and the beast, I will laugh, because there’s a big difference between the two. Now I’ll make a modern fairy tale FinnRey parallel - Frozen. Anna married her Finn at the end. That movie made bank and it reflects modern female protagonist fairy tale preferences.

Yeah, it’s super hot to see your torturer has a pretty face. Or, like in Frozen, the evil hot prince doesn’t get the girl because the modern girl doesn’t like psychos.

Wait you mean they set it up for the protagonist and antagonist of the trilogy to face off later?! That totally must mean they’re headed for wedding bells!

Correct, mutual loss because the villain just murdered HAN. You remember him, he’s a good guy that doesn’t murder people in cold blood.

Again, no clue what your point is. None of this says anything about romantic Reylo. You’re just proving my point that Reylo arguments are built on people seeing what they want, not what’s actually there.

1. Monsters that monster carry women don’t get the girl, so even if this is a romantic attraction on his end it means nothing;
2. “Mysterious” =/= romantic. Attraction isn’t mysterious.

See above.

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SW databank is meaningless. That’s clearly been influenced by TLJ at this point. We were talking about JJ before TFA even came out.

 

The concept art is not a photo. It's vizualisation of idea, nitpicking expressions is pointless. It has Phantom of the Opera vibe, with that mask and pose. Recreating a photo of actor who was famous for being niche romantic lead before SW and was casted without audition.

 

Nailed it.

Funny, most of this explicitly points directly to a familial relationship imo. And what's left just shows Kylo is a pos.

Fwiw, let's look at who the "prince" and "princess" of the OT are: Luke and Leia.

Oh, Phantom of the Opera comparison, that makes reylo sound...better? J/k, it doesn't.

 

I gotta go look and it won't be its suppose to be Jedi killer and Kira (Rey's proto form )

edit yeah its not in there it must of came after that photo shoot but looking on like it still doesn't seem like fan art

 

It’s not indexed under Jedi killer either. And Rey is indexed as Kira, so I already checked those.

Edit - hey Phantom of the Opera isn’t a romance either, at least not with the monster. You have to point to the sequel nobody cares about that was largely derided to get there.

 

It's comparison of concept art relevant to discussion about when and what romance was planned.

 

Concept art that’s not in the published book that shows the evolution of the story. There’s literally nothing in this book that points to Reylo. I guess I never noticed before because I never cared to look.

The closest you get is a dark side force behind Darth Talon.

The room Kylo tortures Rey in is literally called “the torture room” lol. Great romance set up there. Rey is in the torture chair strapped down with that heading.

 

u get sheev's throne room and exploring the ruins of the Death Star so atleast theres set up for sheev being a idea overall all like kk has said but thats irrelevant to if reylo was intended

 

I think he's basically saying the same thing phrased differently

Finn is part of her belonging and clearly it's not enough or the story would already be over and yet we still have one movie left. She still has something missing. Clearly, the creative really cares about Kylo Ren's fat and his relationship to Rey. You're again fixated on the romantic aspect of this relationship. Every time someones mentions it, you automatically assume we're talking about romance when I clearly stated there are other ways to look at it.

I guess we're cherry-picking now? Whether you like it or not, TLJ is part of the official and JJ will have to take it into account for IX. By the way, all of those databank entries appeared right after TFA came out. Kasdan was the one who created this "mysterious connection"—whatever the outcome of this (romance or otherwise) remains to be seen—so no, it wasn't TLJ nor the databank which invented it. LFL wants us to speculate on its possible meanings. It's role is to describe what the movie showed. For me, this connection is mostly spiritual, the Force is the one bridging them together so it could have something to do with the will of the Force. I can also see how it can be interpreted as them being soulmates or something similar hence the "energy they recognize in each other".

It's also the Force which separates them both on SKB and in TLJ. There's a big emphasis on them being linked by the Force, her awakening is linked to KR's growing darkness "Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise". There's also an emphasis on the importance of balance. Apart, they are two lonely people and when they joined forces, they were like in sync, one supporting the other when they needed it. That's what I think the endgame is about, to bring balance together.

 

Totally disagree that these are saying the same things:

They actually sound like complete inverses to me. "Another direction" =/= "in the direction... that is very much in line with what we were thinking." One says the same direction, one says a different direction. One occurred before JJ saw the movie, and then he said the opposite after the movie, once he came back on board to make another one.

In TFA, the movie JJ was talking about because it was the one he was making at the point in time he talked about romance and at the point in time he gave commentary to it, Finn is the belonging Rey finds. He isn't part of it in TFA. He is it. That's the entire point of Chewie telling Rey that coming back for her was Finn's idea, and then Rey jumped into his arms. All she wanted was for someone to come back for her, and in JJ's film, Finn did. That was the culmination of her belonging arc in that film.

I don't know why you're talking about anything but romance seeing as the topic we engaged on was what romance JJ was talking about when he talked about there being a central romance in the ST way before TFA was released.

I'm not cherry picking, I just remember the topic of the conversation we were having. I answered the databank stuff anyway, I just got bored of repeating myself because it's irrelevant to what JJ was talking about in 2013. But again, "mysterious connection" =/= romance.

 

Well, I’m with you in that the databank is meaningful.

Although I will note that Snoke was speaking of correlation - not causation. After all, Rey - like all FS people - was born FS, and Luke certainly did not become FS due to Ben’s fall.

Whatever “balance” is, it will be brought about “through” the Chosen One - Anakin. ie, his relatives.

And Rey and Kylo are equals. Two sides of the same coin. They inherited the dark and the light.

Hm.

 

MODified: NSFW/Language

Spoiler

 

It’s very simple really. After TFA, most people rightly assumed Rey and Kylo were brother and sister, or cousins. The reason for that was her story, her animating question was “Who is my family?” not “Who is going to be my boyfriend?” They were both made to look and act about the same age, and Kylo’s evil acts were played out as juvenile and emotionally painful, because he’s supposed to be a kid. They’re both kids.

Then Rian Johnson decided that story wasn’t edgy, so he had Kylo aged considerably, and turned him into a dead-eyed psycho. Rey was too assertive in TFA, so he made her confused and emotionally vulnerable. That wasn’t enough though, so he decided to flip her search for family into outright daddy issues by making Luke a disappointing dead beat. She needed to be so isolated that she’d get seduced by the first guy to tell her she’s pretty. The campfire scene is just dumb, like she’s getting hypnotized by a snake charmer.

Searching for continuity between the ST is a fool’s errand because it just doesn’t exist. Johnson went off reservation because he didn't care about continuity. They’re two different stories by two different people.