ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Seriously, Han thinks that Kylo, who is going to surrender, needs to kill him and this is a good thing HOW? How does this do anything for Kylo? And answer without “as a parent.” What possible good for Kylo does Han killing himself do? What good did it do him? NOTHING.

All that argument does is give Kylo fans a way to say he’s less bad than Vader so everyone wants to save his sorry butt and therefore you should to. Take that argument and set it on fire, just like Kylo should be.

Also there’s the little matter of the producers denying it.

 

Ford probably had a contract that said if nobody else killed Han in TFA, Han would....

 

Yeah I’ve seen the picture. I personally don’t think those reactions match Kylo Ren walking up to them. That’s way too muted and he’s way too powerful. More like Hux perhaps. But you may be right. Again, what would Kylo’s aim be? Is he good? Or does he want the good guys to help him smoke a rival?

 

So was Vader, in all the "good Anakin" we've seen on-screen. EpI doesn't count, as we haven't seen Ben at 9 or whatever, for all we know he was a good kid at the time too.

Dad-killing, wife-beating/kindergartener-beheading, not seeing some one's-worse-than-the-other here. Especially given Ben at least displays some indecision, where grandpa's just "*deep breath* DIEDIEDIE".

 

Even if his motivations were purely altruistic, why would the good guys trust him? That's a major issue I have with this situation. They have to make the heroes look stupid to achieve it.

 

didn't say worse/better. said Kylo was unlikeable as a villain.

 

His motives can’t be altruistic, unless they gave us Kylo rejecting redemption quite dramatically for two movies in a row just to have him randomly change his mind and walk up to the Resistance a reborn man. That makes no dramatic narrative sense.

 

Well, yeah, if he randomly changes his mind, it wouldn't make dramatic narrative sense. But it seems far more likely that they'll give him a reason for changing his mind.

 

isn't that just following the ROTJ arc though? I mean yeah, different reason, but still.

 

Ergo my question - what is his aim in this scenario? Does Sheev returning and stealing his army suddenly cause his heart to grow three sizes?

 

Kylo killed Han, Han didn't do death-by-son to save afore-mentioned son's soul. Canon. "Ren ignited the lightsaber"

Kylo knows what Luke saw, ergo Luke saw something in the past. Not a thought, something horrible Kylo had done.

And on "sins of the father", cool, Rey related confirmed!

 

Maybe Kylo could get their help, beat Sheev, and betray them again. Then Rey and him duel to the death.

 

In which case the response should have been "I`m out of here, you freak, you are no longer family to me". Not "waaah, I`m gonna kill half the student, run to the current master of all evil and join the Facists".

I think Luke acted like a supreme idiot in that night and I even understand why Kylo hated him. But if Kylo`s one, second and only reaction was sociopathic outrage, that is his deal. Even Palpatine didn`t make Anakin fly off the handle in ROTS, that was still entirely Anakin.

Still, in the end, I don`t remotely get the argument of "if you liked Vader or if Vader`s redemption was okay for you, you absolutely also have to like Kylo Ren and want his redemption". This is not how it works. Vader is Vader and Kylo is Kylo and one can enjoy one or both but it`s not a natural if-then.

 

It will be interesting to see what is revealed in the rise of Kylo Ren mini series.

When did Snoke make contact?
Was it he who told him he was from Darth Vader?
How did he spin that to his cause?
What did he tell Ben about his other family and why he was sent away?
What are the Knights of Ren? How did they come to be?
What is their history?
What was promised to him?
What was he told he’d be joining?
How did the temple night play out?
How did the talks with the other students play out? Did he explain that Luke tried to kill him and try to say that the Jedi were the true evil and pitch them on being knights of a different kind?
Did things escalate to a battle?
What happened after that?

There’s a ton of interesting story to cover there if they choose to but it’s only 4 issues. Not sure what we will get. Charles Soule is awesome with dark content though so Kylo Ren as a character is in great hands.

 

Depends. In the extended material at least, isn’t Palpatine’s contingency plan post-death, pretty much just to blow up the galaxy.

As in, if I can’t have it, no one will.

 

4 issues but we only get issue 1 before tros so their might be something revealed in it that might be a good character thing for kylo going into tros but yeah soule will own the mini series. Hes one of the best writers currently writing for Marvel/star wars

 

The whole of TFA was structured to be a copy of ANH. we basically needed the put plans into a robot and sent him off stuff. then we meet luke... i mean Rey ect ect. they were tried to put luke in there at some point where he was gonna be the mentor figure of TFA. but they felt he overshadowed Rey and took him out.

And that can be done in many ways. obviously, as you say needing to take all parts of what came before in the last 2 movies into consideration too.

 

Yes that doesn't work at all anymore than the similar arguments put forward to "If you liked Anakin or Luke then Rey is the same" or "If you liked Sidious then Snoke is the same" or whatever variation.

 

Word. RJ's mistake was in presuming that turning Luke into an a-hole would automatically make Kylo's psychopathy sympathetic. That doesn’t follow. If you want to make mass murder sympathetic, give the bad guy a sympathetic goal and an ends-justify-the-means mentality. I don’t even understand the idea that a mass murdering of innocents temper tantrum is supposed to be complex or understandable.

 

If anyone can make Kylo more sympathetic it's Soule. Maybe there is indeed some as of yet unknown tragic past event that helps explain Ben's fall. If that's the case it should really be shown in IX too.

As it stands though I'd just as soon see him die falling deeper into the dark side. He's been repeatedly offered redemption and rejected it every turn, why would he suddenly turn now?

And, as far as comparing the two, one key difference between Vader and Kylo is that Vader had the Emperor manipulating him his entire life as a Sith. Kylo has now killed Snoke, his tormentor is gone. So, if we're to believe much of the reason Ben fell is due to Snoke's influence then why is he still being an evil ****?

 

But thats not how it works though is it. Kylo doesn't kill Snoke and go ohh what have i been doing?!!! thats not really a moment of clarity because snokes influence stays no matter what.

Infact wasn't that the idea with Starkiller? Vader had a secret apprentice from Palpatine presumably hoping at some point to over throw the emperor? and with Luke probably. you think Vader would kill palpatine and suddenly be good again?

 

Because the darkside isn't so easily tossed aside. Yoda says it in ESB ("forever will it dominate your destiny.") And while Vader did eventually come around, it's clearly not something you can just shrug off at a moment's notice. He might come around to the light side in TROS, but to expect him to kill Snoke in a grab for power and then suddenly say, "Oh, wow, Snoke's dead now... I guess I'll be good!" is unrealistic.

Edit: I see Daxon101 beat me to it!