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ST Rey Skywalker/Daisy Ridley Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

Page 427 of 427
  1. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I’d actually argue Kylo doesn’t change in TLJ, actually; his presentation changes, but part of the problem is that he’s as static as Rey.

    On a note that’s a bit more motivated for me...

    I actually *did* want Rey to go through Luke’s story in a pretty detailed way - to have her struggle be one of resisting the dark side, ultimately successfully, even when she discovers a family connection to the key villain weighed against/exacerbating to be even worse hatred she has for him. It may be a “basic”, predictable, formulaic plot for Rey, but I think it would have worked better, and its central issue in execution (since ultimately Abrams tried implementing something like it in *one* film rather than across three is this:

    Rey needed to both HATE Kylo in a constant, almost unending way across all three films, and be his clear SUPERIOR in the Skywalker story.

    If you had those two things, then you can both competently copy Luke’s story - but also elevate Rey’s story beyond a mere copy of Luke because of Kylo, ironically.

    The main issue, greatest potential and eventually fatal problem regarding the Skywalker Family story is Kylo being so repetitive of Vader without Anakin - he was always going to get a story shaped and propelled to massively significance by that family tie... and in fact, it’s notable how the sheer enthusiasm TLJ fans had for his story arguably shows that they had no real interest in Rey Random by comparison, and how much some of that “Rey Skywalker would be a bad idea!” was bull**** since they so immediately favored Kylo because of his family.

    That’s a story derailing problem for almost all Rey stories... except for one where she’s related to him directly through the Skywalker bloodline, because then *she* takes the mantle for the family story overall, and because it would reinvent the story as being “Which legacy matters more to a family torn between dark and light? The monstrous shadow of Vader, or the light of Luke?”

    That’s a story that can feel like a natural follow up to the tales of Luke and Anakin, which uses Kylo well, and has some resonance across decades of storytelling; audiences have a bigger reason to care about Rey *and* Kylo is their story, fate, and conflicts are tied together about the Skywalker family.

    Sadly, what we got was the semi-predictable output of Abrams’s mystery box being answered by Johnson rejecting the only really workable answer; a trilogy story that is convinced it must focus more on Kylo than Rey, but inevitably realizes it has to kill him at the end.
     
    godisawesome , May 13, 2024
    #10651
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  2. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Yeah, I've seen the movie. I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

    Yep core to the movie. Well developed. Important. I am not debating that.

    Yet, held up to the Star Wars films/series/media that came after, The Force in the first Star Wars was/is minimal in comparison. That's not a slight. It's a necessity. It was/is genius. ANH still serves as the best entry point into the SW franchise and a big part of that is how efficient the use/explanation of The Force is.

    That said, I will repeat that the depth, the nuance, and the mythology of The Force really didn't start to take a firm hold and rapidly expand until ESB and beyond...
     
    jaimestarr, May 14, 2024
    #10652
    godisawesome likes this.
  3. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I feel the Holiday Special is the best way to see get a peak at how Star Wars was interpreted by the audience before Empire came out. Lucas had very little input in the holiday special so its basically written by people replicating Star Wars based on what they see and know. in the story Han is off with Chewy as expected, they started as a duel so of course they would go back to that. Luke is fixing his ship because he is a proper pilot now after the first Star Wars. Leia is doing princess stuff because princess. You get this cartoon with Boba Fett which is a little mini adventure and is about the 3 of them on an adventure. This is not a force related adventure that would become expected after Empire.

    So when you look at how Lucas translated the first Star Wars movie. Yeah the force aspect is not fleshed out or at least to the point where people knew what he was trying to say with it.

    After Empire, you got into the dark side, the light side, fear is bad, do or do not, etc ect.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2024
    Daxon101, May 14, 2024
    #10653
    jaimestarr likes this.
  4. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Totally agree with that. One of the reasons why ANH works so well, and is/was so accessible, is the amount of information given to establish the fictional world. There’s just enough exposition in ANH, just enough detail to give the audience an insight without bogging them down in the politics or socio-econmic elements. It’s brevity is what works to pull audiences in and become engaged in the concepts/situations. It’s a really quite sophisticated piece, IMO, when broken down. However, yes, it’s TESB that starts to develop all the concepts.
     
    Darth PJ, May 14, 2024
    #10654
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  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I guess this is one of those pov things. I think ANH tells us a lot about the Force and how it works in that universe. It's not just explaining the magic, it's the explanation of the Jedi who wield it, how one can be seduced to the dark side, the Empire that took over from the OR. It's a rich tapestry of exposition going on. And most of it is done in the first 20 minutes.

    On a minute to minute basis, yeah, Empire probably has more force screen time. But ANH lays that foundation so that the weird magic stuff makes sense within universe. So much so that a talking frog wizard teaching Luke about this magic feels .... believable and makes total sense.

    The Force in ANH is the meat and potatoes. (Along with the Empire, the Jedi, the history) It's not something just added to the plate to make it look pretty.
     
    DarkGingerJedi, May 15, 2024
    #10655
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  6. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That's sort of the secret to the OT's success, and likely the main reason why ROTJ tends to be seen as a clear "third place" if still immensely popular conclusion; ANH was a massively successful foundational film, then ESB elevated the series into creating the Space Opera genre that it hadn't been yet. It's a one-two punch that most franchises never touch.

    And I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but I sometimes think that there's a minor conflict between fans-turned-creators who prefer ANH for being an exceptionally efficient and well put together pseudo-standalone that's a throwback to adventure films versus fans-turned creators who prefer ESB for finetuning and perfecting the formula so much it had greater psychological and spiritual impact and made the "lore" a proper "mythos."

    Normally, the two can complement each other... but sometimes as in the ST, they can end up conflicting, particularly if the "adherents" both approach it from a super-shallow way. Ironically, I'd argue that Abrams seems a bigger fan of what ESB made the series, but is of course too shallow to know how to really set it up with his extremely ANH-copied film, while Johnson seems to be a bigger fan of ANH but seems to regard that film as so shallow he can't do a proper ESB-level film even when he thinks he should.
     
    godisawesome , May 15, 2024
    #10656
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  7. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I agree. It's the core to the movie. Calling it a "garnish" was not the correct terminology.

    Yet, Star Wars is about so much more than The Force and the teacher/student dynamic.

    Consider: Not as much time and energy and focus is devoted to teachings of The Force in ANH as compared to, for example, Mr. Miyagi 's philosophy/ teachings in The Karate Kid. Or boxing/training in a Rocky movie.

    You can have Star Wars movies without The Force and it will still be Star Wars. The film(s) and franchise are about so much more than The Force. You cannot have a Rocky movie without boxing.

    Does this make sense?
     
    jaimestarr, May 15, 2024
    #10657
  8. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Abrams has neither the intellect or cinematic creative talent to make anything resembling ANH or TESB. I'm not even sure he thinks about these films at a quarter of the level we would (although I'm sure he loved the films as a 7 year old). To use a Beatles music analogy... it's like someone thinking they can replicate the song/recording of Help!, by using a similar guitar sound, whilst simultaneously not understanding the importance of its melody or lyrical content... or thinking that 1967 era Beatles can be distilled down to the sound of a sitar. It's that level of disconnect/misunderstanding of the subject matter that the likes of Abrams frequently demonstrate.
     
    Darth PJ, May 16, 2024
    #10658
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  9. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    This is partially agree with you on. Andor is absolutely some of the best SW recently and it has no Jedi/Force story. (That we know of thus far lol). I just argue against the point (that Daxon originally mentioned) that the force is undeveloped in ANH or not central to that story.
     
    DarkGingerJedi, May 17, 2024
    #10659
    jaimestarr likes this.
  10. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Now I want to do princess stuff because princess.

    Oh and I agree — ANH is the best entry point.
     
    DarthHass, May 21, 2024
    #10660
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