ST Rey Skywalker/Daisy Ridley Discussion Thread

I can clearly see what the disagreement is… and it’s one of petty semantics that you keep having. You seem to have set an arbitrary criteria for what constitutes a “nobody”, and it’s one that does NOT align to Campbell and the hero’s journey. I’ve been very clear that it’s been used in this conversation because 1) That’s how Rey is *literally* pitched in the ST (before her reveal as a Palpatine)… and 2) It’s being used a shorthand to denote the archetype who lives in the “ordinary” world, lives a mundane life and who must take up the quest. What is it you don’t get about that???

It makes them *the* archetype that is living the *mundane* life in the *ordinary* world as per Campbell. That you can’t comprehend why that would constitute these characters being referred to as a “nobody” is the issue. I.e. the issue is entirely yours because you refuse to take it figuratively, and keep going on about Harry Potter being a famous wizard??? The point is that he is NOT seen as a famous wizard in the world he inhabits living at Privet Drive, in the muggle world, *before* he starts out on the journey/quest… just as Luke isn’t seen as the saviour of the galaxy back at Tosche station, or Anakin isn’t seen as a saviour in the slave quarters, or Perseus back in the fishing village in Greece…
What is it you’re not understanding???

You’re not listening. All those characters exist in the “magical” world. It’s how Harry is perceived in the “ordinary” world is what establishes his character archetype within the hero’s journey. That’s where his story starts. Same for Luke. Same for Anakin. I’m not sure why you don’t have the ability to understand this fairly simple premise?

Anakin is a slave. Living a slaves life. No one sees him as ‘special’ (other) than his mother, until Qui-Gon shows up. The only thing Watto ever says that’s half complimentary is “The boy's good. No doubts there, huh?” before proceeding to bet on Sebulba to beat him in the podrace. Watto doesn’t think he’s superhuman or ‘exceptional’… he doesn’t even say “one of the best”… he just thinks he’s a good podracer (as evidenced in the dialogue).. just like Luke is good at piloting his T16 etc. Also, you are aware that in stories such as these… that *specialness*, ‘bravery’ or strength of character etc, is typically shown/revelead as the plot develops right? So you’re just pointing out what every story naturally does… that’s the hero’s journey.

He is a relative “nobody” at the start. The inhabitants of Tatooine don’t see him as a god like figure do they? He’s a slave boy living in poverty on a back water planet. That Qui-Gon takes him under his wing and he is revealed to be the chosen one, and in turn, Luke turns out to be the son of the chosen one (or son of a famous Jedi Knight), does not run contrary to them starting their stories in the “ordinary” world, where they live mundane/ordinary lives.

With respect, I think that’s possibly because you don’t understand.

That’s kind of how the hero’s journey typically works.

Everybody is somebody… even you. A ‘nobody’ is figurative.

Why do you think it’s about them being *hugely famous*?

The journey is typically one of enlightenment.

Why wouldn’t Anakin and Luke be known locally? They weren’t hermits.

Fundamental to that journey is Harry Potter understanding who he is. And when that journey starts he doesn’t know that, he isn’t aware of any expectations, or destiny…he’s living a mundane life… same with Luke. Same with Anakin. That’s what their story is predicated on I.e destiny fulfilment. That they must traverse from the ordinary world into the magical, that there are revelations along the way, is all part of their eventual enlightenment. You seem to believe that these characters having a ‘destiny’, or having a destiny thrust upon them, precludes them starting their journey in a humble/ordinary place. It patently does not. The magnitude of their victory/triumph is relative to their origins. It’s why Luke was specifically depicted as he was in ANH. That was George Lucas directly leaning into Campbell… I.e. having Luke as the farm boy on a back water planet… you seem somewhat ignorant of that fact.[/QUOTE]

 

They are not understanding how THEY see the characters, is different than how the character sees THEMSELVES (or how society treats them) in their own story. They can't separate or even understand how those are different. And they refuse to budge on this misunderstanding. They believe that because THEY see these characters as important, and 'somebody' in their own lives, or in mass-pop culture, they have to be viewed that way in their stories.

And instead of even just disagreeing on the concept, which has been explained in great detail, and simplistically, or taking some sort of subjective route, they refuse to even except the terms or its definitions outside of how they think of them and can't budge on this matter, for what honestly seems like very personal reasons.

Another example, which Lucas used as inspiration for Anakin and his own fall. Michael Corleone. He's a war vet. He's somewhat known because of his medals and service. Where do we first meet him? At a normal American Italian wedding. A wealthy one. One with hidden rooms and deals going on behind the scenes. But we're introduced to this world, this exact way, because it is familiar to us in our lives ... so that when fictionalized crime stuff happens later we have a grounding to that fantasy and it feels all the more real.

But Michael, he's the most normal one of this family. His father has big plans for him. He knows his father has big plans for him. And yet, in his family ... he's the runt of the litter. he's the outsider. The smart one that isn't involved in any criminal matters. He's a nobody in the crime world. Not respected. Not even thought of really, which was his father's doing. And when he accepts his 'call to adventure', his older brother rejects the idea and laughs at him. He has to prove his status. He has to prove that he can rise up and be a somebody in that world. And he does just that.

Being a nobody is never literal. Ever. The definition never even mentions popularity. Its about how someone feels important or has authority over their world. It's always a figurative place, or state of mind that the character feels, given their place in society. And its' the most common starting point for all these stories.

 

Im not interested in seeing more about Rey the only interesting thing about her is that she is a Palpatine but i doubt they will explore that about her again i would have preferred to see a story 100 years in the future with new characters and antagonists something similar to Star Wars Legacy

 

You can do both, make stories for Sequel fans and 100-500 years later with Grogu and new characters.

 

I don't think her being a Palpatine is very interesting. It doesn't add much to her unless you buy that Dark Side-ness is in her blood, which TROS clearly wanted you to believe, but personally I dislike that idea. Force sensitivity may often be hereditary, but that shouldn't mean an individual choosing the Dark Side means their descendants will have a natural bent towards it. I didn't believe the apparent genetic draw would make any difference anyway; Rey is a very "pure and good" type of character.

The interesting things about Rey to me is her being a scrappy survivor from her background as a scavenger as well as her friendship with Finn, but those have already been completely wasted and squandered. Nothing about Rey stands out to me anymore except her yellow lightsaber.

 

Well we’re being led to believe they are not doing both. That’s the problem… and it’s potentially a huge problem for DLF.

The problem is that Disney made Rey’s lineage a ‘thing’… so whilst I agree it adds very little, if nothing, positive to her character, it’s still probably the only interesting thing about her (even if one doesn’t find it particularly interesting). Remove her being a Palpatine and she’s really a supremely banal and vanilla character… which isn’t a good place to be for the new films post the ST… as DLF are pinning the future of SW on the franchises most vanilla, bland and unpopular lead to date IMO.

 

Kylo was right. She has no place in the Skywalker story. Which is why JJ had to give her that name. Its too bad it was done in the most ham-fited and after-thought kind of way. As if they realized all too late their blunder and tried to put a band-aid on it.

 

Here is what you said earlier about what makes a character a nobody;

And you also said;

This bit here involves quite a bit of how other people see the characters. So even if the characters do not think they are anything special, if lots of other people do, then they could still qualify as somebody.
So the nobody bit is not just if the character thinks they are a nothing special.

Above you mentioned famous
If a person is really famous but is not aware of that, does that mean they are not famous?

Harry Potter is very much famous in the wizarding world.
Here is what is said in the first chapter of the first book.
"He'll be famous - a legend- I wouldn't be surprised if today was known as Harry Potter Day in the future - there will be books written about Harry - every child in our world will know his name."
This is telling us, the reader, that Harry Potter is a somebody but it also tells us that Harry Potter is a somebody to the other wizards in this world. So not just important to the narrative but also to other people in the narrative.
Yes Harry himself is initially not aware of this and Dumbledore explains why, that this much fame would turn his head. Better he grows up away from that until he is old enough to handle it.
But as soon as he enters the wizarding world, he is the center of attention. He gets treated as a somebody.

Is Frodo a nobody? He is fairly famous in the Shire, mostly because of his uncle Bilbo.
Even outside the Shire some people know of him. When Frodo and co leave the Shire and encounter Gildor and his elves, Gildor knows who he is. And Frodo can speak elvish, so knows a bit of the outside world.

RE: Anakin, he is aware that he is the only human that can race pods, if he is aware that he has no human father is unclear. If he does, he knows quite well that he is exceptional, out of the ordinary.

RE: Clark Kent. The comics have varied a bit of the backstory. Pre-Crisis, Clark took on the mantle of a hero, not as a man but as a boy and became Superboy. In one old comic, he looked to be about 8-9 years old when he became Superboy. And Pre-Crisis, Kal-El was about 1-2 years old when he was sent from Krypton and from what I recall, he did have some memories from there. So he knew he was from another planet.

In Superman the movie, young Clark knows he has powers and wants to use them and show off.
But Pa Kent says;

So his father assures Clark that there is a reason why he is here even if they do not yet know what it is.

Luke is bored with life on the farm and wants to leave to become a pilot. So I would say he has a goal and dreams and places he wants to go. I would not say he wants to know where his place is.
However his uncle is getting a bit in the way of him leaving.

You also defined nobody as;

But then you said this about Anakin.

So if, as you admit, Anakin IS important, then by your own definition, he is not a nobody.

And that is my main argument, if a character is treated as important by both a number of other characters and by the story/setting itself, then I do not think they are really nobodies.

The person that seems not to understand is you. Marty McFly, Peter Parker, Rocky Balboa are big pop culture characters and yet I have no problem seeing them as nobodies at the start of their stories.
Because that is how the narrative framed those characters.
I could add Sam Gamgee, Taran, Pug from the Magician books. The list is long.

So it has do with how the narrative and other people IN the narrative see these characters.
Harry Potter is made super famous from the first chapter of the first book and is known years before he even sets foot in Hogwarts.
Anakin is said to be the Chosen One, created by "God" to save the galaxy and other people knows it.
He has super human abilities even before he trained as a Jedi.
So they are not treated as nobodies BY the narrative nor by other people IN the narrative.

And I do not much like Anakin in the PT so your assumption that this is about any kind of "fan-love" is once again you making stuff up about my motive.
I simply do not think he is framed by the narrative as a nobody and other characters do not treat him as a nobody.

You have used an unwarranted hostile tone and needless condescension, which suggest that you are the one that takes this more personally.
I offer a mild disagreement that started this;

We could have had a friendly discussion about this but that did not happen.
So I see little reason to carry on with this as this is getting us nowhere and is very off-topic.

Bye

 

You don't even read your own posts.

He'll BE famous.

He's not at the moment. He will be famous in the future. But once again, this isn't really about fame.

For all of Harry's life, he's been told he was nothing. He wasn't told that he was a wizard until his adventure begins. And once again, it doesn't matter if the entire Wizarding World knows all about Harry Potter's past or origin. Harry Potter doesn't know this information. He doesn't know how important he is. Harry Potter lives a mundane life of no importance in the cabinet under the stairs because he was left on the door step, in hiding, out of the way, in Muggle-Land, so that he wouldn't be found, and wouldn't know just how important he was and it didn't effect him.

Why? Why would Dumbledore do this? Why would the story be set up this way? Because of another very special somebody child, who Dumbledore did tell how special he was ... turned out to the be most evil Wizard of all. Dumbledore wants Harry to turn out right. He wants him humble. He wants him safe.

Does this remind you of anyone?

In Star Wars, Luke is also clearly very important (I've said so). Luke knows he has a father named Anakin. But guess what? He doesn't know that Anakin was a famous Jedi. Nor does he know that Anakin turned into evil and killed everyone. Luke believes that Anakin was a nobody. Just a space navigator of no importance. Luke wants to escape that destiny. (Just like he wants to escape his father's real destiny too later on) He doesn't want to just be a farmer living on this unremarkable unimportant rock. Luke wants to be a somebody because he was raised as a nobody. On purpose. By guardians who didn't want him to turn out like his father.

Do you still not get it?

All these characters feel like nobodies because of the normal unremarkable world in which they've been raised. Usually ... on purpose. And usually, quite quickly, once they've accept the hero's call ... that world gets turned up side down. And they soon realize how special and somebody they really are. But only after they choose to accept it.

 

You keep mischaracterizing my argument while shifting the definition of "nobody" to fit your position.

I've consistently distinguished between character self-perception and narrative framing. My entire argument is about how the films present these characters to the audience through specific storytelling choices, not how they feel about themselves. I've never mentioned "pop culture importance" as my reasoning. I've specifically cited storytelling elements from the films themselves: Anakin's superhuman abilities, miraculous birth, and connection to prophecy; Luke's special lineage and the droids specifically finding him.

Your Michael Corleone example actually contradicts your own point. Michael isn't a "nobody" - he's the son of one of the most powerful mafia dons in America, introduced at a lavish wedding where people line up to ask his father for favors. He's wearing a military uniform (signaling his war hero status) and is immediately established as "the hope of the family." The narrative frames him as exceptional from the start - not as an ordinary person with no special background.

You're now redefining "nobody" to mean "how someone feels" rather than their actual status in the narrative. By this definition, practically every protagonist would be a "nobody" since most have moments of self-doubt or feeling unimportant.

The narrative framing of characters through dialogue, plot devices, and exposition is fundamental to understanding how stories position their protagonists. Star Wars consistently frames its Luke and Anakin as exceptional early int their appearances, which is different from true "nobody" narratives where characters remain ordinary throughout but prove their worth through choices alone.

 

/\
Being strong with “the force”, whilst living a mundane life in the ordinary world, is not mutually exclusive. That’s the bit you can’t seem to comprehend. If this were the case Luke, Anakin and Rey would not conform to Campbell’s concept of the hero’s journey (Rey is more accidental, as Abram’s/Kasdan are just imitating what went before rather than leaning into an idea)… and we know for a fact that Lucas was heavily influenced by Campbell when writing Star Wars. So rather than this perpetual pedantic posturing, why not put a case forward as to why you believe the monomyth doesn’t work as a concept? I’m sure you can google something…

 

Are we still on this.

I'm not shifting the definition to mine own. I'm using the definition.



You are the one making it up to suit your own POV, not I.

The narrative is that they are nobodies in their world. What don't you get about this?

Of course it matters how the characters feel about themselves, that's part of the narrative. Part of the internal POV they need to get over. It's part of the call to adventure and proving that they deserve this new adventure. Luke's POV feelings are so strong that he refuses the call at first. Refuses to believe what Obi-wan is revealing to him. That's why feelings matter.

The characters FEEL like nobodies, and that's is important because it usually dictates how they don't feel important or strongly desire to be more important than they have been. Because their world has made them feel this way. They are living lives of no importance. Stuck on mundane worlds or towns of no importance. Often, but not always, by design. Luke didn't want to be a farmer. He wanted a life up in the stars, with his friends, doing something far more important.

They don't know the full picture though. Or why they are stuck where they are. And then once their story starts they are offered a chance at doing something important, moving from the normal world that they have existed in and feel bored by, to the special one that they really belong in. During this process they have to accept that call, whether its from a mentor who knows who they really are, or on their own by sheer will.

By the end of the story they actually do something important, learn about their special talents in the process that always existed in them, or have to train to learn those special powers, and become important and have some authority over the world in which they live. If they don't accept that call, none of that happens and Frodo and Bilbo stays in the Shire. Luke stays on Tatooine and doesn't learn about the Force. Mikey stays in the Goondocks (or gets kicked out) and doesn't find the treasure or grow up.

And again, it has nothing to do with actually having special powers, though, as you keep brining up for some reason. (Because you don't seem to get this, of course and are simply yelling at me for not allowing you to make up definitions that suit you) All of these protagonist types have special abilities that make them special, deep inside. Its there waiting to be discovered. Whether its the Force, or Magic, or intelligence, or bravery, or brutality, or whatever.

But the characters don't know this yet. They are ignorant to this part of themselves and that world that they desire to belong to. They don't exude these special traits just yet. They have to find it in themselves as part of their journey.

They all go from being powerless to powerful. From ignorant to learned. From not knowing themselves, to knowing their true selves. From being nobody to someday in the larger world that they desire to be a part of thanks not just because of their last name, or because a special mentor has a plan for them, but because of the actions they take during that adventure.

But please. Please demonstrate how in the narrative that Luke feels important and has power or any authority over anyone or ever the Force, in his first 18 years of life. You keep bringing up examples and proof that already occur after their adventure starts. That's not how this works. We're talking about how they start. Not the middle.

And lastly, thanks for proving that you don't actually read my posts because I spoke about Michael Corleone being part of an important family, and YET, he's the outsider. He's not important. He's just a nobody in that crime world. They literally know of him, of course, but that's not what nobody is about. It's figurative. It's how he feels or they they view him. He's not thought of, because his father purposefully set him aside outside, somewhere safe. Just like Dumbledore purposefully set Harry aside, and outside of the wizarding world. Just like Ben sets Luke aside, so that he's not part of this just yet. The movie in the first scene purposefully makes the family seem like many others. An American wedding. A family event that we all know. It's familiar to us, almost mundane, even though there's backroom deals happening. And Michael is not like this family. He seems bored by it all. He shrugs. He doesn't know all the details or what's really happening in those deal rooms. He even states this outright so that everyone in the audience gets it. Well, almost anyway. He doesn't feel important in that side of the family. His medals and service mean nothing to THEM. This achievements matter not. But that changes half way through the movie when he steps up, accepts the call, and then takes over that side of the family business.

Now....as for Rey. A copy-paste job of Luke, she too feels like a nobody. Living on an unimportant world, far from something important.

She too FEELS unimportant. Like a nobody. (that 'like' means figuratively, because I know you love to confuse words) She feels like she was thrown away by her parents. Ditched for reasons why doesn't know about yet. Which is why she fantasizes about her parents being....important somebodies. "Classified, really? Me too, big secret." She imagines them being important people, on some top secret mission, because that will mean her life, and her current circumstance is also important. It means she's a somebody and she was abandoned for an important reason.

And this is all before she even knows what the Force is, or that Luke is more than a myth or bedtime story.

However, RJ conflated the concepts. He mistook Rey's own fears and projected them onto the audience in a meta way. And then has other characters tell her she's LITERALLY a nobody in THEIR story, which doesn't really work because we've been following Rey for 5 hours at this point and know she's important, and she knows she's important. (And hell, she never really cared that her parents were famous, just wanted them back, and to feel important to them) We know she isn't a nobody anymore. She knows she's not a nobody any more. She's already trained with the Force. What RJ does is doing what you are doing. Not understanding the concept, or more interested in making it about something you want to see.

 

@DarkGingerJedi


You're fixating entirely on character emotions and in-universe social status, while ignoring the narrative devices that shape how audiences perceive these characters.

Your challenge to "demonstrate how Luke feels important in his first 18 years" is a straw man. I never claimed Luke felt important before the story - I've consistently argued about how the narrative frames him for the audience once he appears on screen.

Yes, feelings matter in storytelling, but they don't override the narrative framing that signals a character's significance to viewers.

Your claim that "it has nothing to do with actually having special powers" contradicts your own examples. The special abilities of Star Wars protagonists are precisely what the narrative uses to signal their exceptional nature from the start.

The examples of Frodo/Bilbo and "Mikey" from Goonies actually highlight the difference - those characters are introduced as genuinely ordinary people without predetermined significance. Their narratives don't immediately establish supernatural abilities, special lineage, or cosmic prophecies about them.

Your distinction between "before the adventure" and "after it starts" is artificial. The adventure begins in the first act, and the characters' exceptional nature is established almost immediately through specific storytelling choices.

"Refusing the call" is a standard hero's journey element that doesn't make a character a "nobody" in narrative terms. The call itself often comes precisely because the character has been framed as special already.

Your Godfather example still works against you. Michael is introduced as exceptional from the start - son of a powerful don, war hero, "the hope of the family."

Regarding Rey - you're actually making my point. The meta aspect didn't work because the narrative had already established Rey as exceptional. The "nobody" reveal felt forced because it contradicted the framing that had positioned her as important.

Lastly, once again, you've shared the dictionary definition, again this illustrates my point. Let's apply it to Luke and Anakin:

"A person of no importance or authority."

From the moment we meet Anakin, the narrative establishes him as important through:

• Being the only human who can podrace (extraordinary ability)
• Having the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded
• Being conceived by the Force itself
• Being the subject of an ancient prophecy

From Luke's introduction, the narrative signals his importance by:

• Revealing Obi-Wan has been watching over him his entire life

• Quickly establishing his father was a legendary Jedi

Now, if we want to talk about in universe social status and importance ...these are matters of perspective. Luke may seem like a "nobody" to many, but to Obi-Wan and Yoda, he's one of the most important people in the galaxy - the son of Anakin Skywalker and a crucial hope for the future of the Jedi. Similarly, Anakin may be a slave on Tatooine, but to Qui-Gon and the Jedi Council, he's potentially the Chosen One. The narrative deliberately shows us these perspectives to signal their significance.

The films frame both characters as having inherent importance from their first appearances, contrary to what a true "nobody" would be by this definition. Their social status might be humble, but the narrative immediately signals their exceptional nature and importance to the audience.

This is fundamentally different from stories about characters who start as genuine "nobodies" with no predetermined significance and gain importance solely through their choices and actions.

 

With respect, you’re actually highlighting your own issue I.e. a failure to understand how the *hero* is established within story, with a rather binary understanding of the word ‘nobody’, and how Campbell typically defines the tenets of a ‘hero’s journey’….

That the audience are attuned to the notion that the protagonist has some untapped talent/power or ‘speacialness’ is typically how storytellers establish their heroes… The Campbell concepts are intrinsically tied to the storytelling of mythology and how characters attain *mythical* status in and out of universe… Your mistake is believing that, for example, Bilbo Baggins and Luke Skywalker are not conforming to the same hero’s journey… because Luke is the hidden son of a famous Jedi, whilst Bilbo is not. And that’s an incorrect assumption on your part. This is about characters inhabiting an ordinary world, living an ordinary life (within story) and then undertaking an ‘extraordinary’ quest and becoming enlightened/transformed through that process… regardless of any hidden origins, untapped abilities etc. etc.
Both Luke and Bilbo meet this archetype as set out in Campbell’s concepts… as does Anakin, as does Harry Potter, as does Mikey from The Goonies. That you need/want to establish your own criteria for ‘special’ or preordained ‘specialness’ being a stipulation or separator is really your own issue, and one that does not align to the ‘hero’s journey’… so I’m wondering why you’re fixated on this?

Are you suggesting that Lucas is not leaning into Campbell’s concepts? Are you suggesting Lucas didn’t use the concept correctly? Are you critiquing Campbell/the monothyth concept itself? Otherwise it sounds like you’re just trying to obfuscate and claim a parity between the OT/PT and ST that was never being contested.

 

This response completely misses my point and what Campbell's hero's journey is actually about*.

I've never said Star Wars doesn't follow Campbell's monomyth - of course it does! My argument has always been about how the films frame these characters for viewers from the moment we meet them.

*The hero's journey doesn't actually require protagonists to be "nobodies" at all - Campbell himself analyzed tons of myths where heroes have divine parents, miraculous births, or prophesied destinies. The "ordinary world" in the monomyth isn't about being an ordinary person; it's just about starting in a familiar setting before the adventure kicks off.

There's a pretty clear difference in how stories can introduce heroes:

1. Characters shown as special from the start (through lineage, abilities, prophecy)
2. Characters who are genuinely ordinary, with no predetermined significance

Both types can absolutely follow Campbell's framework, but they're different storytelling approaches. Star Wars consistently uses the first approach - showing its protagonists as inherently special from their first scenes.

This isn't me making up "my own criteria" - it's just basic story analysis. And I'm not claiming anything about "parity between OT/PT and ST" - I'm pointing out how all three trilogies introduce their heroes in similar ways that signal they're exceptional from the beginning.

 

Special people can be nobodies.
Special people can become somebodies.
Special people can choose to stay home and continue to be nobodies.

Being a nobody has nothing to do with being super special (through lineage, abilities, prophecy). It has nothing to do with the definition of the word, or the mythic narratives that Campbell examines.

Luke knows nothing about his special powers, his father, his family, the Force, the Jedi. None of it. He's stuck on a rock far from the excitement of the galaxy that he yearns to join. He doesn't want to be just a farmer. He doesn't want a mundane normal life. That's the life he's being presented to him and he doesn't want it. And when given the chance, he realizes there's nothing there for him anymore, nothing to hold him back, and he chooses to leave with Obi-wan.

Luke is presented as someone who feels like a nobody. He hasn't done anything himself yet. He's special, obviously to the SW saga story, but not by the life he's lived for the first 18 years of his life which has crafted exactly who he is. He has been protected from his truth. On purpose. Because a nobody hides better than a someday. Living on Tattoiine. As a farmer. All while his friends go out and have exciting adventures. But once he chooses to accept the call, he realizes through his journey of self discovery exactly what the truth is, what his special abilities are, what his family lineage was all about, and what actions he can take to being ... a somebody. The opposite of where he started out.

Simple.

 

Ultimately, we're using "nobody" in two completely different ways. You're talking about social obscurity - Luke being unknown, living on a remote planet, and unaware of his own importance. I'm talking about narrative framing - how the story presents him to the audience from the beginning.

These are fundamentally different concepts. A character can be socially obscure (unknown, not famous) while still being narratively framed as inherently special (through lineage, abilities, destiny). Luke and Anakin are perfect examples of this distinction - they live in obscurity but are immediately established as inherently exceptional to the audience.

I understand what you are saying...and agree to a point. Yes, Luke doesn't know about his powers or lineage at first - that's part of his character journey. But the narrative immediately signals his significance to the audience through specific storytelling choices.
Within the first act, the film:

• Shows Obi-Wan has been watching over him his entire life
• Reveals his father was a famous Jedi
• Demonstrates his immediate aptitude with the Force

These aren't storytelling choices that frame Luke as a "nobody" to the audience - they're deliberate signals that he's inherently important from the start. The narrative never allows viewers to see him as truly ordinary.

The same applies to Anakin - from his first appearance, he's established as having powers no other human has, a miraculous birth, and a cosmic prophecy about him.

You seem to be defining "nobody" simply as "not yet famous" or "unaware of their own importance," but that's not how the term functions in narrative analysis. Character self-perception ("feeling like a nobody") is different from narrative framing (how the story presents a character to the audience). Luke may feel unimportant, but the narrative immediately frames him as significant.

This isn't about whether "special people can be nobodies" in their own minds - it's about how Star Wars consistently frames its protagonists as exceptional from their first appearances through specific narrative devices, which creates a different kind of story than one about a true "nobody" who rises without predetermined significance.

While Luke and Anakin superficially resemble the "everyday hero" trope through their humble living situations (moisture farm, slavery), the narrative immediately establishes them as inherently exceptional through bloodline, prophecy, and unusual abilities. Their journey isn't about becoming special - it's about discovering the specialness that was always there.

 

Thanks for this, I've literally been in a coma for 2 weeks, but a close friend has been keeping a vigil beside my hospital bed and reading out all these replies to this thread. Finally I woke up, punched him in the face and shouted "Please stop reading this out to me. The audience know they're somebody because we're watching it! But the people around them within the story don't know that and see the person as a nobody in the grand scheme of things - whats so difficult to grasp?". Thank you for bringing me back.

 

Again... and this is where I become a little cynical of this kind of debate... as we've gone over this same point several times, and have (from my perspective) been circumscribe/clear.... but again:

"Nobody" is/was a term specifically used to frame Rey in the ST... that's why it's being used here. "Nobody", in this context and in terms of referencing Campbell/the monomyth, is shorthand for the hero whom inhabits the ordinary world and lives an ordinary/humdrum life... until they take up a quest that takes them into an extraordinary/supernatural world. This applies to Luke, Anakin and Rey as much as it applies to Frodo, Harry Potter or Perseus. I mean, do you think Rey, at any point in the ST, was really being framed as a "nobody" as you seem to understand it?

Your distinction between the 'ordinary' hero who is "genuinely" ordinary and those whom have hidden abilities/powers/lineage is unfortunately moot. Campbell and the monomyth do not make that distinction... that the hero lives in the 'ordinary' world is the point. That they live an 'ordinary' life, until the call to arms, is the point. Now of course there's a conversation to be had about how characters (within popular fiction) such as Bruce Wayne, Iron Man et al fit into the monomyth; and they can all broadly adhere... but as I stated earlier, this is an argument of your own making.... and as such it's an irrelevant one and is one that seems more designed as deflection rather than how Star Wars leans into Campbell... IMHO. Now I'm not accusing you of consciously creating a distraction, I'm stating it is working as a distraction... to the point that I bet you'd struggle to even remember what the original point was???

I'm not sure where that has been contested, and why it would need to be pointed out? It's a given, and it pretty much applies to every hero throughout fiction. It doesn't really matter whether the hero has hidden or innate powers (Luke/Anakin/Rey), or whether those powers are bestowed, gifted or accidental (Peter Parker/Bruce Banner), they still fulfil the same role/function yes? Even Bilbo Baggins had innate skills that Gandalf could see, and needed, for the quest. Same applies to Jim Hawkins in Treasure Island or David Balfour in Kidnapped (the difference being that the abilities are not usually of supernatural design in stories set in the 'real world', but are more connected to strength of character and moral fortitude).

My only further comment on that would be that Lucas leaned into Campbell by design, whilst messers Abrams and Johnson are probably far less cognisant of/interested in those factors... and their characters are more a result of following an already existing template/standard created by Lucas, which is one of the contributing factors as to why (IMO) the ST characters don't particularly jive and are bland (outside of high level concepts such as *defected stormtrooper*).

 

Except as I have pointed out to you, Harry Potter was hugely famous in the wizarding world long before his journey stared. His fame started to rise when he was just a baby. "The Boy who Lived."
So there a lot of people around Harry knows that he is super special and do not see him as a nobody.

Tony Stark was famous before he became Iron Man, Bruce Wayne was quite well known before he became Batman.
In some stories, the main character is already known, a somebody and THEN they go on a journey.
Why is this so objectionable?

Anakin was recognized as a somebody very quickly because he could race pods and that was impossible for humans. Once Qui-Gon tested his blood, he saw that Anakin was quite special indeed.

Do you read them?
For context, when this was said, Voldemort had fallen that day or maybe the day before and word was already spreading.
And for further context, that chapter ends with wizards all over the country raising their glasses, saying "To Harry Potter, - the Boy who Lived."
So yes, baby Harry WAS quite famous at that point so your argument fails.

And you were the one who brought up fame as a criteria.

So I am using your own argument to show that Harry Potter was famous long before his journey even started so then he would fit being a somebody according to you.

You also said;

The wizarding society does not look at Harry Potter and see a nobody. They look at him with awe and reverence and expect great things from him.

I do not think this argument does what you think it does.
1. Tom Riddle was told he was a wizard about the same age as Harry, about eleven. So no difference there.
2. How were their childhoods? Harry's was not very pleasant but I would argue that Tom's was worse.
His mother died in child birth, his father either does not know that Tom exists and might not care if he did.
Harry had a home, not a very nice one but a home. Tom was raised in an orphanage.
3. Harry had quite a bit of money in the wizard bank, Tom had nothing. He was given some money to buy a wand, books and robes.
4. Harry was famous when he arrived at Hogwarts, Tom was pretty much a nobody to the other wizards.
He had no famous name, a fact that bothered Tom as he thought that his father must have been a great wizard but he found no mention of him. Not surprising since his father was a muggle.
5. To Dumbledore at first, Tom was a wizard but not one all that noteworthy. But Tom said he could talk to snakes and that likely caught Dumbledore'a attention a bit. What he would be more concerned with was what Tom had done with his powers and his thievery. Even after that meeting, Dumbledore had no clue what Tom would become.

So if Harry had humble beginnings, Tom had as well.
And people would expect far more from Harry than from Tom.

The key differences between the two lies on what kind of people they were when they were told.
Harry had no great ideas about himself and was content to be just Harry.
Tom, like Harry, had no clue that wizards existed but he wanted to be special and he relished that fact when he was told. He already had begun to tap into his power and use it against those he did not like.
So Tom was at that age, more powerful than Harry.

Could Tom Riddle had grown up a different person if he had been taken in by some wizarding family soon after he was born and cared for? Or was he just evil from birth?

The better comparison would be someone like Malfoy. He was arrogant, knew how special he was because of his name and looked down on most other wizards and muggles even more.
If Harry had grown up knowing how famous he is, then he could turn out like Malfoy.

Or take Anakin. He was told at quite a young age that he was something special, that he was the chosen one, there to save the galaxy. Could that have fed his ego, made him more arrogant?

But you defined nobody as someone that is not important.
If Luke is important, how then is he a nobody?

Luke wants to join the academy and become a pilot, which he thinks is what his father did. So what destiny does Luke want to escape here exactly?
That he wants off Tatooine yes that is clear. But if the events of ANH had not occurred, that could still happen. But would his last name get noticed in the academy?

Did Owen and Beru know that Anakin became Vader? That is not established in the films.
Also, Obi-Wan wanted to give Luke his father lightsaber earlier but Owen would not let him.

Except Luke is told his father was a Jedi BEFORE he accepted the call. And if Owen had not stopped him, Obi-Wan would have told Luke about his father some time before ANH. So Obi-Wan did not choose to not tell Luke, he was prevented.

Anakin knows he is special, he knows he is the only human that can race pods. So he knows he is different. If he also knows that he has no mortal father is unclear but I think it likely.
So Anakin is aware that he not ordinary even before his journey starts.
And to bring back Tom Riddle, both he and Anakin had so much power that they could tap into it even without training but Anakin used his gifts in more positive ways.

Clark Kent knows he has powers long before he takes up the mantle of Superman, that he is extraordinary. His choices are more about how he should use his powers, to what extent?

There are stories in which the main character starts as a somebody, a person of some importance, with some power and yet they can still go on a heroes journey. Being a nobody is not an absolute requirement, it is just common.

Bye.

 

I'm not creating a distraction - I'm responding directly to the original claim that "Anakin was a nobody too." My whole point is that Star Wars doesn't frame its protagonists as "nobodies" in either narrative terms or by the dictionary definition.

The term "nobody" wasn't just used for Rey - it was specifically introduced to this discussion about Anakin, which is what I've been addressing all along.

Campbell's monomyth doesn't require heroes to be "nobodies" - that's not part of his framework. Many mythic heroes he analyzed have divine parentage, miraculous births, or prophecies about them. The "ordinary world" refers to a familiar setting, not necessarily an ordinary protagonist.

And yes, the ST initially tried to frame Rey as a "nobody" - that was literally Rian Johnson's point. But the narrative couldn't sustain it because, like Luke and Anakin, she was immediately established as exceptional through her Force abilities and mysterious background.

The distinction between how narratives frame characters matters greatly in storytelling analysis. It's not "my own making" - it's a fundamental aspect of how stories position their protagonists for audiences. Star Wars consistently chooses to frame its heroes as inherently exceptional from their first appearances.

If you think this is irrelevant to how Star Wars uses Campbell, I'd suggest revisiting Campbell's work as it encompasses many different types of heroes - including those who begin with clear markers of their exceptional nature.

This further illustrates my point rather than contradicting it. Yes, many heroes have special qualities - that's precisely what makes the "nobody" framing in Star Wars problematic.

Again, he original claim I responded to was that "Anakin was a nobody too" - which doesn't align with how the narrative frames him. The distinction matters because it affects how we understand the characters' journeys.

Bilbo is actually an interesting comparison. Unlike Luke/Anakin/Rey who are immediately shown to be exceptional through supernatural abilities or prophesied destinies, Bilbo is presented as genuinely ordinary - with qualities Gandalf values (cleverness, courage) that aren't extraordinary within his world. His exceptionalism emerges through his choices, not predetermined destiny.

I agree with your point about Lucas intentionally using Campbell while Abrams/Johnson may have been following templates rather than deeply understanding the mythic structure. This likely contributed to the jarring "nobody" reveal for Rey - it contradicted the narrative framing that had already established her as exceptional in ways similar to Luke and Anakin.

The core issue isn't whether heroes can have special qualities - it's how narratives position those qualities. Star Wars consistently frames its protagonists' exceptional nature as inherent and predetermined rather than emerging solely through their choices.

Glad my Star Wars analysis had healing powers! Hope your friend's face recovers!

 

It most definitely does frame them as "nobodies" when the term is specifically being used to reference the 'ordinary' world/'ordinary' life these characters inhabit. This has been explained multiple times. If you have a problem with that particular term/word, then I suggest you take that up with Disney/Lucasfilm direct.

Because that's how the ST initially frames its main protagonist i.e. being like Luke and Anakin. It even approximates the desert setting of Tatooine. It even has Rey in similar 'raggedy' attire. This approach, and framing Rey as a "nobody", exposes the overall meta approach to the ST, and is part of its failure IMO. Too self aware, but lacking insight into what Star Wars actually is, no heart and soul etc. etc. Again, peeling back the layers, your issue seems to be more to do with how the ST frames Rey.

Again, you're willingly ignoring what's already been stated... which is why I see this as an exercise in distraction and obfiscation. "Nobody" is shorthand for "living an ordinary life" in an "ordinary world". If you don't understand this, or you refuse to accept the context (which is referencing the ST directly), then there's little point in continuing, as you're argument is literally around the definition of the word "nobody".

The ST is poor because it's poorly written. It has nothing to do with flaws in the concept of the hero's journey, or how it leans into that per se. That the films specifically reference Rey as a nobody, and that Johnson uses that term, is just an example of the self-aware, breaking the 4th wall approach the ST seems to rejoice in. What Johnson is knowingly (or unknowingly) referencing, is Rey's journey from the 'ordinary' into the 'supernatural' or 'extraordinary' world, which is of course one of the main tenets of the hero's journey. This often involves a revelation... be it lineage, a hidden power realised, or strength of character. This is the hero's journey. That you believe there's a clear distinction between, for example, someone having the force or simply having the strength of character to be brave... and that these characters can't be on the same hero's journey because one has powerful father, is your problem (with respect).

We all know the importance of narrative in stories, and how characters are developed within that narrative. That is not what you're arguing though. You're using a false argument to justify what separates one character from another... which works at a surface level (after all Luke Skywalker doesn't have hairy feet and is not 50 years old when he starts out on his quest), but not at a fundamental level.

With respect, I think your points are largely irrelevant... not Campbell. Campbell does not make the distinctions you do. Which is why I believe your points are eroneous. That doesn't mean you can't have or make those points... I just think they are irrelevant to this particular discussion, because you're clearly arguing semantics.

No. I think that's just you arguing semantics. That Anakin, Luke and Rey are powerful force users does not negate them being framed as living an 'ordinary' and mundane life at the start of their journeys. Even Rey (who I believe is one of the most badly written characters, certainly in Star Wars) still conforms to that very typical hero's journey... even though she is secretly the granddaughter of the Emperor, and apparently she's the most powerful force user ever... even Rey starts her journey as some kind of urchin eeking out her day for scraps. It conforms/adheres... be it consciously or subconsciously on the writers part.

Inhabiting an ordinary world, where that ordinary world does not see the protagonist as being 'special' or 'extraordinary' is the entire point. That is what 'nobody' is referencing. It's a figurative and not literal interpretation. Again, semantics on your part. You know this... I know you know this...

Again that's your own criteria/interpretation. The story absolutely shows Bilbo to have strength of character, courage etc. which are not typical traits of a lowly Hobbit. Hobbits don't typically take on powerful dragons etc. We (the audience) all know that the 'hero' or main protagonist is going to be special... pretty much from the very start... that's how these stories/myths typically work. It's invariably how that 'specialness' is revealed in the course of the journey is the point. It's the arc from farmboy/street urchin to knight that is the journey.

Typically the heroes are all shown to be 'exceptional'.... that's how stories usually frame their protagonists... it's their journey that makes them exceptional... from their 'seemingly' humble backgrounds to become the one that saves the day/village/world.

 

Side A: This is the definition of the words being used according to the dictionary, and the literary principles being applied to the character and stories in their narrative.

Side B: This is how someone views the narrative outside of the story according to how one feels about said narrative.

All of the protagonists are clearly somebodies to the viewer. That's why they're protagonists. We know its their story. We saw the trailer or prior episodes. We can assume their importance. We the audience often know more about the story than the protagonist does when we first meet them. However, that's not how the actual inner narrative for that character starts out. The protagonists don't know they're the protagonist of something called Star Wars/Matrix/Goonies/ETC. They don't know they're important. They might feel important deep down, as most people often feel about themselves, but that usually conflicts with their current surroundings and reality, and makes them yearn for something greater. They don't know that they have an important destiny to fulfill, yet. They often feel stuck, left behind, unseen, invisible, unheard, not taken seriously. Often they are poor, a servant, a maid, a slave, or something mundane and very boring. Often they are someone living at the bottom of society with no authority or power over themselves, or their lives. In other words; a nobody.

That's what these stories are actually about; agency and empowerment. They take control over their lives, over their destiny, they no longer serve unwillingly. They become free to do what they want or feel is important. They go from being a nobody, living at the bottom of society, with little agency, to being a somebody, who has all of it.

Anakin didn't know he was the Chosen One, even though we do. Even while being the only human who could fly a pod-racer, a special ability that earned him some local fame among slave owners, he didn't think he had the force or had some special destiny laying ahead of him. He was simply a talented human, who was a slave. Living on a back world planet. The rest of the galaxy went on without him for his first 8 years of life. Once he accepts the call to become a Jedi, he then has to earn his place of importance, especially since those who know about the prophecy and his Chosen One status, actually dislike him being there. They resent him. And fear him. Anakin has to fight for his place at their table. (Which comes up later in EP 3). He goes from being unseen and with no agency - a nobody - to being the Chosen One, the hero of the Clone Wars, who falls to the dark side and destroys the Jedi, (and ironically feels he loses his agency and is a slave once again) and then finally destroys the Sith. His legend is told decades later.

Luke doesn't know he's part of a important Jedi family, even though we do. He doesn't know he has the force. He is simply a farmer's helper, living on a back world planet, with seemingly little choice over his lfie. His friends are all leaving on their own will to explore the galaxy and become important. All while he's left behind for another season missing out on his chance. He knows nothing about his true lineage, his father, Vader, the Force, or Yoda's plan for him. He is ignorant of these things and feels unimportant in the galaxy. He is a nobody in his world. Outside two mentors, the galaxy doesn't even really know he exists. Once he accepts his calling, he's so conditioned to believe his unimportance, and his nobody status, that he refuses to believe Obi-wan telling him how important he is. But even so, Luke too has to earn his place. He's not just instantly seen as an important hero because of his father. Others around him doubt his skills and abilities. He has to prove it with his actions and heroics.

Rey doesn't know she's really a Palpatine, even though we know or assume she must important and connected to somebody. She doesn't know why he's been left on a back world planet, living as a lowly scavenger working for unscrupulous bosses. She has little free will or agency to do what she really wants. Or to even leave that planet due to trauma. She has no idea that her dad was a clone, nor does she know that she has the Force. She mistakenly believes that the Jedi and Luke Skywalker are nothing more than myths told to kids at bedtime. She feels so unimportant, and fears being unimportant, that she creates fictions about her parents being important somebodies and working on top secret missions.

All of these characters haven't seen the trailer. They haven't seen prior movies (except for Rey who instantly does when the movies need her to. But that's just poor writing more than anything else). They don't know that they are the protagonist in their stories. Hell, Rey is so convinced that she's a nobody that she begs the more important Skywalker Somebodies around to her to tell her what her place is supposed to be. Because she desperately wants to be a somebody.

This is all very simple.

 

@Darth PJ @DarkGingerJedi

Listen I get what you're both saying about these characters starting in humble circumstances - Anakin as a slave, Luke as a farm boy, Rey as a scavenger. Do you think I am disagreeing with this? I am not. In fact, I acknowledged this from my first response. If either of you think I am missing your point...please feel free to elaborate. I think I have a good handle on what you are saying.

That said, I wonder if you can see what I'm getting at? There is more to the narrative than the typcial "humble beginning."

From the moment we meet them (Luke/Anakin), the narrative is already signaling they're special in ways beyond just being protagonists. Anakin isn't just talented - he's literally the only human who can podrace and has midi-chlorian counts off the charts. Luke isn't just a restless kid - he's immediately tied to the larger mythos through Obi-Wan and his father's legacy.

I'm not arguing semantics about the word "nobody" - I'm pointing out how Star Wars consistently frames its heroes as inherently exceptional from the start, not ordinary people who become exceptional solely through their choices. Like a Rocky, Bilbo, etc.

Do you see the distinction I'm making between characters who are revealed to have been special all along versus those who truly transform from ordinary to extraordinary? It's not about whether they know they're special yet - it's about how the narrative positions them for the audience from their first appearance

Can a protagonist be a "nobody" if they are "somebodies" from the outset of their own story?

You're contradicting yourself here. How can Luke and Anakin be 'nobodies' when the story clearly marks them as special from day one?

Luke isn't just some random farm kid - he's literally being guarded by Obi-Wan, hidden away because he's Vader's son and possibly the galaxy's last hope. That's not a 'nobody' - that's someone incredibly important who just doesn't know it yet.

Same with Anakin - he's not just a slave with a tough life. He's the only human who can podrace, conceived by the Force itself, and literally prophesied as the Chosen One. The story frames him as extraordinary from the moment we meet him.

These guys aren't ordinary people who become special through their choices and growth. They're already special people temporarily stuck in ordinary situations. The narrative marks them as 'somebodies' from the start, whether they realize it or not.

That's a fundamentally different kind of hero's journey than stories with genuinely ordinary protagonists who transform into something extraordinary.

Again, I'm not disputing their humble beginnings. I'm pointing out that the narrative clearly establishes Luke and Anakin as inherently exceptional characters from their first appearances, making it impossible to accurately describe them as 'nobodies' within their own story worlds.

 

With respect, I think you're confecting a nuance that isn't/hasn't been under discussion i.e. the narrative effect on the hero's journey within a film/story if, for example, Luke Skywalker hadn't been the son of a powerful Jedi Knight, but instead was just a farm boy who had learnt to use the force like any one could in that fictional universe. And for me, I'd say that has no bearing on the hero's journey element of that particular story. That it transpires that Luke has inherent abilities not afforded to others, and is the son of Anakin Skywalker, categorically aligns to Campbell and the 'hero's journey' he details. Take Luke's lineage out, and his force abilities, and its alignment to Campbell and the hero's journey' remains unaffected.

If it is that 'nuance' you are wanting to discuss... sure, but that's quite different to what was being discussed before.

Now if you're simply stating that Star Wars is predisposed to have a Jedi/force user as its central protagonist, then yes of course it does... but that's only similar to English folk stories of the medieval period that featured tales of knights going into battle etc. Star Wars is purposely trying to be a contemporary fable/myth that reflects those fable/myths of yore. However I would point out that it didn't have to be this way for Disney Star Wars... as Lucas' films were specifically focused on Luke and his father (Anakin), who were Jedi... whereas the ST had the opportunity to have a non-force user lead if it had chosen to... but pragmatically, I'd also highlight that Star Wars is a space fantasy... the entire genre is predicated on the fantastical and supernatural i.e. many characters have special powers/abilities. If SW weren't that genre, and Lucas had set it on Earth, Luke Skywalker would have just turned out to be an exceptionally skilled fighter/dueller etc. like Rocky but with a sword... but the core of the story, and the hero's journey, remains the same i.e. an unknown from the backend of nowhere becomes a someone...

As per above... what you're asking/alluding to is more nuanced. For example, would Paul Atreides conform to this archetype? And that's more a conversation about the monomyth and Campbell, and how relevant it is in a broader setting, rather than Star Wars and the ST. For the record, yes I do think Paul Atreides story aligns to Campbell.... but as I say, that's a whole other conversation.