ST Rian Johnson (Director Of TLJ) Discussion Thread

Well then you should figure out what you mean before you type because that is very different than what you said previously. What part of the dark side is natural? Death and decay are not the dark side. So what part is? The greed? The selfishness? The rejection of the force's will.

And if the dark side is a natural part of the force, it should be very easy to find a quote. SW has been around for 40 years. Unless you're looking for RJ to come up with one.

 

Can you define the dark side of the Force?

 

In the Mortiis arc, the Father makes a point to insist that his offspring cannot go outside of the isolated planet of Mortiis, because the Son's presence would be catastrophic for the galaxy. The Daughter exists to balance the darkness caused by the Son, and those two super beings represent the light and the dark side of the Force. This does not mean that both are to be embraced. In fact, the Jedi have been sacrificing their lives for the greater good, which is the light side prevailing. Yoda also has a story arc in TCW Season 6, where he realizes that in order to understand the great mystery better, he needs to come to terms that there is a tiny bit of darkness in him as well, and is unavoidable.

This does not mean a 50-50 balance between the light and the dark, which is what RJ tried to express in his movie. It means that the Jedi should not be so afraid and reactive to the dark side, where they lose the forest. Accepting that there is a little bit of darkness in this world, does not mean that it is natural to have light side and dark side Force users roaming around in the galaxy. This is the wrong read in my opinion.

It is no secret that George Lucas based his entire saga on Buddhism and its fundamental views of the world. But he never preaches or pushes the idea that both sides are needed and should exist in large quantities. GL is describing the eternal fight between good and evil in the galaxy, in our society, within ourselves. And the message of his movies is a message of hope. And a message which says that our light side must prevail. The desired state of the Force is one where the light side completely overwhelms the dark side, and keeps the Galaxy a place of peace and prosperity. He made the point multiple times, that the Balance of the Force is when the light side wins, even if there needs to be a little bit of darkness in the galaxy. That's not what RJ showed or tried to convey. He tried to convey that the Force "pulsates" and goes from light to dark, back to light, back to dark, etc. That's kinda bonkers, and a pretty horrible message quite honestly. Star Wars is about hope, not about glorifying evil by presenting is as normal and natural.

 

From the master himself...


It's unnatural. The 'some' he alludes to here, are the Jedi. They consider the dark side to be unnatural. Death and Decay are natural. Greed and selfish acts that go against nature (like trying to cheat death or bring people back from death) are unnatural in nature.

 

Well we can asume now it was all real.

 

George Lucas has explicitly stated that both sides of the Force are needed and that balance is not “just light”

There’s always going to be light-siders and dark-siders struggling with each other. It’s not about whether it’s right, that’s just a natural result of individuals actions

 

Right. The Jedi are about using both sides and most of all Balance.

The thing is the Jedi don’t got 50/50 light to dark because the dark side is so corrupting in those with power they can’t maintain balance.

 

Uhm no?

Saying that the Jedi are using both sides of the Force and saying that Lucas intended for both sides of the Force to be equally present in the galaxy is a fundamental misread of the story.

Lucas has repeatedly said that all that BS about grey Jedi doesn't make any sense and he would never include anything like that in his stories.

He has also said that the prophecy of balance in the Force means the destruction of the Sith. These are pretty well known facts at this point.

 

Yes. That’s what I said.

The Jedi aren’t grey. Their order helps maintain balance in the Force. But the Jedi do not only use the light side of the Force. But they avoid using the dark side because it is so corrupting. The have moments when they do use the dark side. And they have rules to mitigate that use. When a Jedi kills it’s out of defense. They aren’t using mind tricks to make money for personal gain etc. A lot of the lessons we hear on the Force are about responsible use and not falling prey to the dark side.

With the Sith and balance in the Force it’s as if the Sith put their thumb on the dark side tray of the scale to push it down. There is no balance in the sense 20 Jedi means their must be 20 Sith. The imbalance is how one Sith alone can manipulate the Force with their own dark side actions to cause imbalance. The Sith are actively messing with the balance towards their own ends.

 

No. I don't know where you picked this up, but no.

Nothing in the saga says anything close to this. In fact, the entire story is about NOT going to the dark side for power. NOT using the dark side because of its quick and easy corrupting nature. NOT using the dark side because its about greed and selfishness. And again, this NOT what Lucas or the Jedi meant about balance.

Honestly, it sounds like you've committed yourself to defending RJ's vision of the force in TLJ, that you've now got everything backwards

 

RJ came along after 40 years to tell us that the dark side is natural so that Kylo isn’t an evil boy.

 

Yes, it has. Johnson merely reiterated Lucas' original concept of the Force, overruling all the internet trolls who had spent years trying to throw it out and replace it with nonsense.

The sides of the Force aren't groups of Force users.

Not an actual Lucas quote, and not really about Star Wars at all. It's a quote from a book about Kurosawa films that was vandalized by an anonymous person to make it look like it has something to do with Star Wars.

The Sith are not the dark side.

 

I never said otherwise. The poster I'm debating said is saying so.

 

Sounds like Snoke is using 77% too much dark side, whereas Kylo is only using 34% dark side and isn't quite evil yet. Or ... something, according to ... someone.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue that Rian has this new way of understanding the force all figured out. That's why it's mostly nonsense and not inline with how the force or the Jedi have been presented to us for 40 years. It IS mostly laziness, and doing whatever it takes to make Kylo seem not evil (yet), but still needs a Rey to save him from going further. So he immediately gravitates to the idea that light and dark are in balance with one another, that birth and growth are the light, and death and decay are the dark side, that the jedi create sith, and this cycle is endless and in balance. And so it's not Kylo's fault that he went to the dark side, or is using the dark side, it's the light's fault. And that the dark side is just a natural part of things, so that Kylo himself is a natural part of the cycle. (Which still means that Snoke is as well, but shhhhh don't dwell on it)

 

They are the ones using it in the saga.

 

Here's the thing: (as I see it) There is no technical dark side of the force. There are no evil midis. Or evil blood. Or perhaps even evil Whills. The Force just is. Much like creation, birth, death, decay, life, destruction, are all natural parts of the universe and are not evil. The Jedi are in balance with the Force, and the universe, because they live in harmony with it. They both listen to the Force, are guided by it, it controls them, while they also have some control over it. They Jedi understand and work within the natural cycle of things, and accept the natural outcome that they do not have control over all things. They are there to defend and protect the natural cycle of the universe, of peace, and of justice.

The dark side is unnatural. It's the shadow of existence. Those who use it, are abusing the Force, the universe, for their own selfish desires and greed. They work against the natural order of things. They seek to cheat death, to rule forever, to murder, to rage, to gain power over others, to control what cannot or shouldn't be controlled. Their works and power create imbalance in the natural cycle. And the Sith, a cancer upon the entire system, sought so much power, and were so selfish in their greed and actions, who left unchecked would ultimately potentially destroy the Force and the universe, and its natural cycle, needed to be removed by the Chosen One, so that balance - HARMONY - could be restored once more.

Using the dark side comes with a massive catch however. While it promises freedom, and a quick and easy source to gain seemingly unlimited power...it is a lie that also enslaves the user towards a destiny, that is either almost impossible to rescind, or recover from. When Yoda says to Luke that the dark side is not stronger, this is what he refers to. The dark side and the light side are not equals. They are not in balance with each other. The dark side is the imbalance. The light side is path to the true source of power, and actual freedom. Its limitless, it moves beyond even the corporeal of the living. Strike me down, and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. This is why the Sith cannot truly achieve immortality. It's outside their desire and power and even comprehension. And I would gather that is because the dark side is a shadow of this existence and has no place in whatever realms exist where one becomes ONE with the force.

With no dark siders, there would be no dark side. While with no Jedi, or light siders, there would still be the Force.

 

What do you see in this image? The light completely overwhelming the dark? The light "prevailing"? A message that both sides are not needed?

That is accurate.

Wrong.

The dark side is not the imbalance. The balance is between the light side and the dark side.

Wrong. Just as the light side doesn't depend on the Jedi to exist, the dark side doesn't depend on the Sith to exist. The Jedi and the Sith are not the sides of the Force.

 

What is? You are being unclear. The dark side and the light side are not equals, nor are they in some kind of balance with each other. The dark side is the imbalance in the harmony.

It's funny how people think just by saying the word 'wrong' that makes their case. I'm going to assume you cannot.

Not according to Lucas. Or anything in SW. I'm not sure where you've gotten this false idea from. The dark siders we see in the saga are what is causing the imbalance. Removing the Sith, the dark siders, removes the imbalance. Lucas has been extremely clear on this matter.

Well. At least you used more than one word here. Still not much of thought process though. I never mentioned the Sith did I? No. And I clearly didn't mention the Jedi owning the Force. In fact I said the opposite. So In what ways does the dark side exist without dark siders abusing the force? Without that abuse, it cannot exist. Without that abuse, there is no imbalance to the Force, or to the universe. The natural state of things is the Force. The dark is is unnatural. It doesn't actually ... exist. It's a shadow, used by greedy beings, abusing the force to their own selfish end. Remove the greedy beings, and their use of the Force, and the dark side is gone. (Until such time as greedy beings misuse it again) And further, just to restate: death, decay, destruction, or any of those 'bad' things some people think of, is not the dark side. Those are all natural occurring elements to the universe. None of them are evil, or unnatural.

 

"Anger, fear, aggression - the Dark Side of the Force are they."

Plenty of times, animals get angry, or afraid, or aggressive - these can be characterised as "natural occurring elements to life in the universe".

So, if anger is the dark side, and anger is often natural and not evil - then that may fit with "They both need to be there".

 

Regarding that yin-yang symbol up there in this thread... it has nothing to do with the SW concept of balance as shown in the films and explained by Lucas. The one exception is the ripoff of the yin-yang symbol that appears in the Mortis arc, which is one of the things about those episodes that I can't stand.

As noted above, "balance" in the Force really means "harmony"... it's really too bad that Lucas didn't just use that word to begin with, because it would avoid so much confusion. There is nothing about equal numbers of Jedi and Sith or equal levels of strength between the light side and the dark side. The Force is one whole thing that is mostly inherently good. Luke says "the good side" once, but the movies never say "the light side". The dark side is a naturally occurring but very small part of the Force that would exist even without dark side users, so it can't be eliminated. But the problem comes when dark side users like the Sith use the Force for destructive and self-serving purposes; that causes the dark side to grow beyond its natural state, and thus throw the Force out of balance / out of harmony. So the prophecy of the Chosen One said that they would restore balance by eliminating the Sith, but it says nothing about the dark side itself because it can't be eliminated.

 

guys, did you know, the Empire is actually the good guys, don’t you see it lol

 

Finally. Someone who is at least using sentences and wants to hash this out.

Anger and fear lead to the dark side. They are emotional feelings that lead to an abuse of power in the force,

And while animals might experience fight or flight I wouldn’t characterize their emotions as the dark side. A T-Rex isn’t evil or dark side because it snarls and eats weaker animals. I would contend that is very much the natural order (balance) of things. There’s a perfect harmony to that cycle. The dark side is mot in harmony with this balance.

So - for clearing - what part of the force is the dark side? Are there evil dark side midichlorians? Dark side Whillls? The force runs through everything… Where does the dark side actually exist outside of its users?