ST Rose Tico/Kelly Marie Tran Discussion Thread

Reviving this thread because I've been doing a bit of thinking about Rose and her character portrayal lately.

I do think that Rose gets a bit too much criticism for her joy at freeing the fathiers and not freeing the stable children in TLJ. I think the fathiers represent something free and beautiful to Rose--sort of a symbol of what the Resistance is trying to achieve in the galaxy--so that is part of why she is so happy to be able to free them. The fathiers are creatures that are presumably capable of surviving in the wild, whereas Rose would basically be bringing the children back to an endangered warship where they could very likely die. So, Rose wasn't really in a great position to really be able to help or save the children. And the children obviously felt hope when they helped Rose free the fathiers and sort of defy their masters and the First Order on Canto Bight. Like they are clearly exhilarated. So in a way they are feeling the hope that the Resistance is supposed to embody. When I think about it that way, Rose and the fathier scene works better for me. There still is definitely some preachiness and tone deafness to Rose and the Canto Bight arc, but when I think about it a bit more I believe some of the criticisms in this regard may be a bit exaggerated or unfair to Rose.

Also, with regard to her line about winning by saving what we love, I've always found there to be a certain resonance to it. Even though I wish Rose had acknowledged that was what Finn was trying to do all along--save what he loved and even getting tazed for that--I still think it is a fairly powerful and profound line. Also, it could be a line that functions as proof of how Rose's character is growing and evolving, learning that the secret to beating the First Order isn't in anger or hatred but in love. A very Star Wars sort of theme, and it takes a strong person to go through the loss and trauma that Rose does without becoming bitter but growing more in love.

I do wish that the movie had showcased Rose's growth a bit more and made it clearer that she was growing rather than often using her as a mouthpiece to preach at the audience, which I think is part of the reason Rose's character unfortunately earned so much backlash, but I do believe that when I make an effort to sort of position Rose at the center of her own story (which is maybe the best way to deeply analyze any character), I can indeed see that she is growing and is a complex character. At least in TLJ. In TROS, she was more relegated to the background, and her character wasn't fleshed out as much. Likely because of the backlash to her character in TLJ.

Just some of my latest Rose thoughts!

 

Yeah, ultimately the biggest problem with her writing was how she was used with Finn. I don’t think that Johnson, for instance, was actually thinking about giving her an arc; I think he accidentally created a framework you can read a story into, because he was trying to use Rose as a hammer to beat Finn “into the right shape” in a pretty incompetent way.

For instance, that line she gives Finn when she “saves” him feels just as incongruous for her character as it is for him - neither have truly had an emotional arc put on display that would make this moment work, and the contradiction in their actions with what the scene is supposed to show makes it clear Johnson wanted the message spelled out but didn’t bother thinking it through enough to show it instead of just tell it.

It’s kind of like how you can tell KMT has chemistry with Boyega (no surprise, as Boyega has chemistry with everyone) but Johnson isn’t using it at all past their first scene. It gives an artificial air to their interactions, much like other pairings in the film.

 

@godisawesome Yeah, I think the focus in TLJ wasn't so much on giving Rose an arc as using her to sort of lecture Finn and the audience, which is part of the reason she unfortunately got so much backlash. I believe the better way to have written her character would have been to focus on giving her an arc along with Finn's so that we could sort of see how she grew and changed as a result of her time with Finn. That would've made her a more complex character, better developed her relationship with Finn, and probably improved TLJ as a whole.

I didn't see Finn and Rose in a romantic light in TLJ until Rose just sort of kissed Finn in a way that felt kind of out of nowhere to me. I don't really object to the kiss since I do like an interracial kiss appearing in Star Wars for the first time, but that how romantic angle to their relationship seems underdeveloped in TROS and even in the supplementary material of the Resistance Reborn novel since the romance is basically discontinued beyond TLJ. So, it just feels like this isolated, out of nowhere kiss that wasn't expanded on more or led up to really well. It just happened out of the blue and then became a sort of abandoned plot thread in future ST content. Which sort of did a disservice to both Rose and Finn's characters.

But I do think Rose had potential as a character. A diamond in the rough type of character. I'm just pondering how that diamond could be carved out into something beautiful.

 

@Glitterstimm You make some great points. I agree that a lot of TLJ characters sadly fall into the trap of being preachy and just avatars for Rian to insert his opinions about things, which I think is part of why a lot of the characterization in TLJ unfortunately falls flat for me.

With most of the other characters as you say, there are the appearances in other movies and Star Wars content to sort of compensate for the TLJ portrayal, but you are right that with Rose, a bulk of her appearance is just in TLJ. In TROS, she is a background figure, and even in books like Resistance Reborn, she isn't given much of a chance to shine. So for her in many ways, it is sort of an all the eggs in one basket, all or nothing, TLJ situation.

I'm actually not sure if Rose is meant to be a nerdy/clever type character or more of a regular, every woman type character.

An espionage act of Canto Bight might have been cool but also perhaps a lot to fit into the movie so I could understand concerns about time constraints perhaps.

 

The kiss honestly comes off to me as a very revealing bit of storytelling regarding Johnson’s purpose for Rose in the story - that aside from her being a useful mouthpiece, her main purpose was to “lock down” Finn away from Rey and “permanently” kill off any potential of Finn as Rey’s romantic interest.

Note that doesn’t mean actually being interested in Finn and Rose’s romance himself, though; that’s why the kiss comes out of nowhere. It’s such a utilitarian usage of a female character to try and “defend” another (his Rey and Kylo “romance) that it’s anemic as a character story.

I still say the biggest single idea that could have made Rose “cool” in TLJ and also cleaned up some of TLJ’s dubious storytelling would have been to have her escape DJ’s treachery, and sabotage the particle shields of the Supremacy so that Holdo’s ramming would have a reason to work.

It wouldn’t be much, but it would have at least made her seem resourceful and significant outside of her interactions with Finn.

 

To me, there’s two issues with both Rose as the “everywoman” and as “the fangirl” in TLJ, and the second is one she shares with Rey, actually, while the first is a problem she shares with Finn.

For the Everywoman aspect, I think I’d make this argument: in the more escapist heavy world of Star Wars, the Everyman and Everywoman can’t do a Star Trek-style “lower decks” episode in the background that’s more of a mundane story, but instead need to be shown evolving into impactful, significant, and somewhat fantastical, to become more aspirational and awesome. Neither Finn nor Rose benefitted from having a far more mundane and comparatively insignificant story in TLJ - it was a clear regression for Finn from TFA, and a bad starting spot for Rose. There’s a reason Finn’s popularity downgraded and Rise’s never took off. In Star Wars, people want the relatable Everyman to end up trading blows with and leaving just as big of an impact on the story as the larger-than-life legends on their way to becoming legends themselves - Luke Skywalker and Han Solo are in many ways exactly that kind of idea, and forgetting that is one of TLJ’s problems.

A similar issue plagues Rose and Rey in TLJ. The films’s idea of them as fangirls is detached, and too “out-of-universe” in POV. The result is two character who again get easily overshadowed instead of standing out - Rey by Kylo and Luke’s story, Rose by the trite and juvenile way the entire mission tries to pitch itself as a teachable moment. Neither character is given a chance to ask more interesting in-universe questions because of the film’s glib approach to Star Wars, and both end up being used more as script or plot tools rather than characters, easily overshadowed by their male co-stars.

Arguably, Rose simply shows all the flaws of TLJ’s character writing for the new characters, but without the previously built-up fanbase the other characters got from TFA. And surprise surprise, it’s hard to care about those characters except in a selectively observational and clinical manner - where you turn on only some of the critical analysis skills and avoid others, and don’ really engage your heart either.

It’s a weaker, more prosaic type of Star Trek approach to an inherently more operatic franchise.

 

Oh yeah, Johnson wasn’t subtle.

He was clearly afraid of even a platonic relationship between Rey and Finn similar to the one they had before, and felt there was nothing off putting about someone as unsubtly evil and vile as Kylo Ren.

The dude was more scared of Rey and Finn being close friends than he was of making Rey have a crush on her murderous stalker. He just misused Kelly Marie Tran as a tool to try and permanently separate the heroes instead of trying to explain why anyone who was Kylo’s victim would find him attractive, because his priorities and interpretations were messed up.

 

People were annoyed about that in the 1980s. I remember it pretty well. I knew someone who was still mad about it in the early 00s.

Pretending Han is just as evil a character as Kylo is absurd though. The equivalent to Rey having crush on Kylo would be Leia having a crush on Tarkin. Even in the 80s, when behavior that we know to be immoral now was considered more acceptable, I don’t think that would have gone over well.

 

Got around to watching Raya and the Last Dragon on Disney +. I am really impressed with KMT's voice acting. She conveys a lot of emotion and humor. Nice to see her working with Disney again after Star Wars.

 

KMT was never the problem with Rose - and in many ways, she was the only real asset the character had.

A lesser actress would have more easily exposed how trite and utilitarian the storyline is when she’s around. KMT almost covers it up, especially in her first exchange with Boyega, before the script slowly reassert itself in rendering both their talents and their chemistry useless.