CT Screwy Imp shielding

So for DS1, the rebels could fly though its shields, but rebel fighter shield did not seem to do them much good. Yet the Imps could not fly though the rebel shield on Hoth. But their ion canon could go right though a SD shield? As Samuel Vimes pointed out, the SSD bridge was protected by a shield generator that did not protect itself but protected by another shield from another generator, that or the rebels could fly though the SSD shields as they were flying all over its superstructure. Meanwhile, the rebels could not fly though the DS2 shields projected from Endor. However, the film is unclear if the Endor base itself was shielded or not. If you go by Vime's theory it may not have been shielded. Moreover, we see TIEs can fly through rebel shields as we see a TIE crash into a MC cruiser. We also see a SD and a rebel frigate exchange fire and both getting direct hull hits.

Now if we include the PT, TF weapons can't pass through Gungan shields but slow marching B1s can ala Dune. Destroyer Droid shields can deflect small arms fire but not larger fighter guns. However, Anakin's Naboo fighter can fly through the TF's shields. Moreover in ROTS, we see a craft crash into a SD hull, but Jedi fighters can't pass through CIS shields but can shoot out the generators for them like with the SSD. Next we see the Invisible Hand and a SD pummel each other getting direct hull hits. Then in TFA, a very fast moving ship can go through the FO's shields which is the opposite of Dune. Seems like force shields are pretty screwy in SW.

 

Does the DS1 have a large scale shield? I remember that the Exhaust Port had a ray shield, but was there discussion of a larger shield?

The pilots say that they're passing through the 'magnetic field', which is probably a reference to the tractor beam from earlier.

 

Slicer87 - first up, it sounds like you are taking shields in a space battle at one point in time, and assuming that it maintains that state throughout the engagement, when in fact it wanes, strengthens and weakens, depending on what is hitting it, how the shield generator compensates, etc.

The Han Solo trilogy by Brian Daley gives the best explanation, for me, especially with the explanation of the "overload spiral".

I'm writing this in a few minutes before I get ready to go to work, so it won't attempt to answer everything.

darkspine10 is correct, that DS1 had a large scale shield. During the X-Wing approach, during the flight from Yavin, their progress is hit by turbulence which you can see them experiencing on screen. That was stated to be the large scale shield, enough to cruisers, but not starfighters, as they were not considered a threat to a space station the size of a moon.

The exhaust port had its own ray shield. Not protected against projectile fire.

DS2 upped the ante a bit, by having an impenetrable shield, that during Ackbar's briefing, you see projected from the Endor moon, to surround the station. Endor itself was not protected, far as I can remember. The film's matte paintings of the base had big transmitter dishes, which I assumed to be the shield projectors, so looks to me like the base itself was not protected by that same shield.

Confusingly though, when the Rebel's shuttle arrived, they required a shield to be opened so that they could land on the planet, and that shield did not correspond to the Rebel Briefing graphic.

SD shields work like Roman tortoise manoeuvre when tonnes of arrows are being fired at them, lots of overlapping shields. So you can concentrate fire on one part to weaken or drop the shield, while the rest of the SD is protected.

Mon Calamari star cruiser shields I think, are a single or double envelope around the ship.

Superior firepower can overload a shield, explaining why heavy lasers will **** a droideka.

 

So for DS1, the rebels could fly though its shields, but rebel fighter shield did not seem to do them much good.

As already mentioned they merely passed through the Death Star's "magnetic field". When they tractored the Falcon in earlier, the guards also referred to a "magnetic field", which IMHO is foremost designed to prevent the artificial atmosphere of the Death Star to escape into space and provides a natural shielding effect against small debris in space.

Yet the Imps could not fly though the rebel shield on Hoth. But their ion canon could go right though a SD shield?

The planetary shield or a section of it was only opened momentarily to allow passage of the transport and the fighter escorts, the ion cannon merely used that window to incapacitate the approaching Star Destroyer.

As @Samuel Vimes pointed out, the SSD bridge was protected by a shield generator that did not protect itself but protected by another shield from another generator, that or the rebels could fly though the SSD shields as they were flying all over its superstructure.



Difficult to answer. The above storyboard suggests the fighters couldn't have flown over the SSD's "broadway" but then we don't know whether that section further ahead was still properly shielded.

Meanwhile, the rebels could not fly though the DS2 shields projected from Endor. However, the film is unclear if the Endor base itself was shielded or not. If you go by Vime's theory it may not have been shielded.

The shield protecting the Death Star was referred to as "security shield" while the shield Tydirium needed to be deactivated for landing was merely a "deflector shield", possibly suggesting a difference and distinction between the two.

Moreover, we see TIEs can fly through rebel shields as we see a TIE crash into a MC cruiser. We also see a SD and a rebel frigate exchange fire and both getting direct hull hits.

Did the alien Rebel Star Cruisers have deflector shields to start with? What we seen in the broadside exchange could have been two vessels that no longer enjoyed deflector shield protection as these had probably been exhausted or cripped at this stage of the battle.

 

Ah shields,

It seems that ships have more than one shield and they can switch power from one shield to the other.
The X-wings for ex, at times they put all power to the front deflector screen and other times mor power to the rear screen.
The MF seems to function like this, in ESB they get hit in the rear and C3PO says;

And Han says;

So power can be moved but if a shield has failed totally then putting more power there won't help.

This is likely what happened to the SSD, the bridge shield was taken down and moving power to it was not an option as the shield has failed totally. Possibly the shield generator had been damaged. So more power would not help.

The DS has a shield designed against capital ships as small fighters were deemed no threat.
There is something called the magnetic field, it is mentioned when the MF is brought into a hangar and later when the X-wings pass through it.
Possibly this also keep the air inside the hangar as it is the vacuum of space outside.

On Hoth, the rebel shield had to be lowered to let the rebel ships escape, for a very short time as Leia noted.
Possibly when the shield was down, they also fired the Ion cannon. So maybe the ion cannon can't fire through the shield when it is up.
But this might not be true, I mean, if the shields of an ISD is up, does that mean they can't fire?
Or do their guns stick out through the shield?
But here I think we'd better not dig too deep as things will most likely not make sense.

If the Hoth shield went all the way to the ground is not clear, the imperials landed beyond it and then walked to the rebel base. But they had only walkers, no air support on their own. So maybe walkers can move through it but flying crafts can not.

As for Endor, the planet or at least he shield generator and the surrounding area is shielded.

This dialogue plus what was said before about using a stolen imperial code to be able to land. It all points to the generator and possibly the whole planet being shielded so they can't land otherwise.
So they transmit the code and the shield is lowered briefly.

Plus if this isn't the case, both the rebels and the empire are morons.
The empire leave the important generator totally unprotected so it can be blown up from space. And the rebels are idiots for not taking advantage of this.
No Endor is shielded, the dialogue confirms it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No the shield also prevented the imperials from landing at the rebel base.
And the shield had to be lowered in order for the rebels to be able to leave.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

ANH and the other films explain that deflector shields can fail from overloads, such as the MF losing a rear shield. TPM, seems to show that shields come in different strengths and a powerful enough weapon can still punch through, like the Royal Naboo ship escaping the blockade getting hit with its shields still up, perhaps they were weakened which is why a blast got through?

However, it seems fighters can pass through shields when the script calls for it. Perhaps many large ships have gaps in their shielding which fighters can take advantage of? But then in the films, it seems some weapons can pass though shields easily such as the close up barrages in ROTS and ROTJ as well as the royal starship. Even with X wings, a direct hit from a TIE will bring them right down.

As for Endor, the rebel map did not indicate the entire moon was shielded, only a column being emitted from Endor to DS2. Generally dishes do not emit behind themselves, the dish acts like a reflector. If there is a second shield, it isn't shown on the rebel map. Perhaps they needed clearance to land inside the column, but this is not clear in the film, nor is it clear i the column goes directly to either just the dish on past it and surround the base which is bigger than the dish diameter.

In ROTS, the Invisible Hand's magnetic hanger shields could be set to block ships from landing, hence why Anakin had to knock out the hanger shield generator. Perhaps the TF learned from Naboo?

The loss of the SSD bridge shield is still confusing. In the film we see a rebel fighter bomb the dome. How it was able to fly into the shield to bomb the dome is a mystery. Perhaps gaps, or SD shields only block weapons fire but not ships? Then there is the question of how close the shields are to a ship's hull?

 

In TPM Anakin could fly into the hangar of the TF ship. But if this applies to all the shields over the TF ship, why didn't the Naboo fighters fly through it and blast the ship from close range?
They say that the shield is too strong for their weapons. So fly under it.

As for X-wings, a direct hit yes but a glancing hit no. we see Luke get hit but he says it isn't bad. Wedge also gets hit and he has to break off the trench run.
So they offer some protection.
Normal TIEs, from what I've read and seen, seem unshielded.

What the maps shows is irrelevant, the dialogue makes it 100% clear that a shield has to be lowered in order for Han and co to be able to land. Ergo the shield generator is protected.
Plus the Hoth base didn't have such a dish but it had a shield.

The shield on Endor has to do something new, protect something in orbit. But it also has it own protection. If this is from a secondary shield or part of the same shield is not clear.
And the rebels briefing is meant to show what protected the DS2 and why they can't attack until this shield is brought down. They mention that they have stolen an imperial shuttle and a code that can get them pass the shield to land on Endor. So that explains that bit.

[/QUOTE]

It is only confusing if you insist in thinking that all the shields of the SSD are in top working order when we see the fighters blow up the dome.

This need not be so, the SSD has been in battle for quite a while and prior to this, Ackbar orders all rebel ships to fire on the SSD. You admit that shields can fail from overload, so why is it so hard to accept the following; the shield that protects the top of the SSD fails due to sustained rebel fire.
The fighters fly in and blow up the dome. This in turn knocks out the bridge shield.
And then one fighter fly into the bridge, causing an explosion.

This could even be deliberate move on the rebels part. First, fire your weapons and bring down the shield that protects the domes. Second, destroy one of them, thus removing the protection of the bridge and third fly fighters at the bridge in an attempt to blow it up.
Seems like a workable plan and if the rebels know how the shield on ISD's and SSD's work, then it makes sense that they do this.

We see them blow up the dome of another ISD earlier in the battle. If this has the same effect as on the SSD, then that ISD now has no protection for the bridge, which could then be targeted and the ship weakened or even crippled.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

It is only confusing if you insist in thinking that all the shields of the SSD are in top working order when we see the fighters blow up the dome.

This need not be so, the SSD has been in battle for quite a while and prior to this, Ackbar orders all rebel ships to fire on the SSD. You admit that shields can fail from overload, so why is it so hard to accept the following; the shield that protects the top of the SSD fails due to sustained rebel fire.
The fighters fly in and blow up the dome. This in turn knocks out the bridge shield.
And then one fighter fly into the bridge, causing an explosion.

This could even be deliberate move on the rebels part. First, fire your weapons and bring down the shield that protects the domes. Second, destroy one of them, thus removing the protection of the bridge and third fly fighters at the bridge in an attempt to blow it up.
Seems like a workable plan and if the rebels know how the shield on ISD's and SSD's work, then it makes sense that they do this.

We see them blow up the dome of another ISD earlier in the battle. If this has the same effect as on the SSD, then that ISD now has no protection for the bridge, which could then be targeted and the ship weakened or even crippled.

It is confusing because it is circle logic.

Would it not make more sense that the domes on top of the tower are the generators projecting said shield that protects themselves and their tower rather than a generator on a completely different part of the ship protecting the tower and domes that protect another part of the ship. It doesn't make sense considering the bridge is part of the tower. Especially since all ROTJ states is that the loss of the dome causes the tower including the bridge to lose their protection. Nothing about any part of the tower, including the dome having lost any shields until the officer reports it after the A wing attack.

We only see one dome blow up and it is the SSD's



Here we see A wings fly up to the SSD dome and easily blow it up with laser guns, not even missiles.



In this clip from the film, there is no mention of any shields being down until after the A wings blew up one of the domes. So somehow the A wings passed through the SSD shields and took out its bridge shield generator sans any in film explaination. Stranger yet, the A wing that crashes into the bridge is hit down low in the SSD superstructure sprawl yet it flies into the bride from above the tower, quite a weird projectory. The SSDs crash is simply a case of plot convenience and being somewhat nonsensical.


Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor[/quote]

 

Shields create a bubble around the ship, which prevents weapons fire or solid objects from penetrating the shield. The shields can be damaged in battle, allowing holes to briefly open up, which is why we see a few Rebel fighters harassing the surface of the Executor. The main shields of the ship were still (mostly) up when the A-wings took out the shield generator dome, which then caused the bridge shields to fail completely.

And yes, we do see another shield generator get destroyed in the battle:

 

Consistant with "pilot deliberately aimed his damaged ship into the bridge" though.

 

SSD deflector shield deployment and rationalization attempt extensively discussed in this thread and post: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...urn-of-the-jedi.50041047/page-3#post-53653948

 

@Slicer87

One thing that I think is being overlooked here is armor.

The walkers in ESB didn't have shields it seems and yet none of the rebel weapons did anything to them.
So thick armor can take a beating.

So it is not only possible but also plausible that dedicated warships have a lot or armor in addition to shields.
So an ISD, even if the shield is down, if it gets hit by one shot it wouldn't blow up instantly.

The bridge of the SSD and probably all ISDs, is a bit different. They have big windows and thus less armor.
So here shields would be more important as it is more exposed.

It is not any circular logic. You have problems because you assume that the shields of the SSD are in top working order when the fighters blow up the dome. So you don't consider the possibility that the shield that protects the dome had been weakened or brought down by rebel fire.

Because you assume that the shields are up, you think that fighters can fly through them.
But if we go with that assumption, you make several scenes in the film totally pointless.
Because if this is so, the fighter that crash into the bridge could have done that at any time as no shield could have stopped him. So the scene of the fighters blowing up the dome and then the officer informing Piett that the bridge shield has failed, those are not needed and serve no purpose.

I don't agree obviously. I think Lucas and Marquand did those scenes for a purpose.
Show Ackbar giving an order for all rebel ships to fire on the SSD, then fighters blowing up the dome, then an officer telling Piett and us that the bridge shield has failed. And finally a fighter flies into the bridge, blowing it up, causing the SSD to go out of control and crash. This is storytelling.
If the bridge shield going down has nothing to do with the fighter crashing into it, you have useless scenes in the film.

And as timmoishere mentioned, more than one dome is blown up.

The Hoth shield is relevant as there, the shield had to be lowered in order to ships to be able to pass through it.
Same with the Endor shield as the dialogue shows.
And the rebels would be familiar with how shields such as the Hoth shields work but the shield protecting the DS2 seems different. So the map is about that and not the shield that protects Endor itself.
That isn't important, the shield around the DS2 prevents any attacks so it has to be lowered. The hologram then goes on to show what they will do next. So details of the Endor shield are not very relevant. All that matters there is that they have to get through it in order to destroy the shield generator protecting the DS2. And they had a code for that.

Well you could also question how they could even get through at all. I would imagine that a project like this have timetables and the like for when transports are due to arrive. So even if they have a transport and a code, if no transport was due to arrive, they would question it. So really the rebels had to add that they took the place of a transport that is supposed to arrive at this point but I don't think Lucas wanted this to be Oceans Eleven.

One could also wonder why the rebel plan wasn't to load the shuttle with bombs and once they got through the shield, they flew directly AT the antenna and detonated their bombs, destroying it. But probably Lucas didn't want Han, Luke and Leia to die like this and perhaps he wasn't willing to be that much into suicide attacks.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Sorry if this has been covered, but something that may be of some use is a bit that I read in one of the cross-section manuals, that stated there are two types of shields; one to protect against physical objects, and another against energy (weapons). Usually a combination of the two is utilized, but when in combat, you need energy for your own weaponry as well, so perhaps it's a compromise. And perhaps the size of the object carries its own compromises as well (especially when a large defensive force is assumed and renders shielding as superfluous).

It also make for a number of cool possibilities as to why the SSD was only "hard" shielded and allowed an energy weapon to compromise the shield generator (maybe it auto-oscillates in times of warfare, or suffers "lulls" when the SD is firing its own weaponry, and the Rebels knew it?)

 

In real life thick armor on tanks can easily withstand small arms fire. It seems the rebels lacked good anti armor weapons for ground battles which is a huge disadvantage for them.

Going by ROTS, it seems starship bridges don't use impact resist glass. But yes, a bridge would be a vial area to protect, and if it is a large ship you would want at least a second backup bridge, and if a flagship the admiral would also have his own bridge so he and the captain are not in the same location during battle. Real life warships spread their vital functions all over so a single hit can't completely knock a ship out like with the SSD.

Guess I was wrong about only one dome being destroyed. However, how they are being destroyed is highly problematic. Lets say the shields are already failing when the A wings destroy the domes. If the shield for the tower is already weak enough for the domes to be destroyed by fighters, than the bridge can too, which makes blowing up the domes pointless since the rebels could attack the bridge instead.

The old storyboard scene in the thread Lt. Hija posted made more sense than the final scene. In the storyboard, the rebel capital ships bombard the SSD bridge tower, then we see a close up of a imp screen showing the shields failing around the tower. It seems the final scene was changed, either because of budget reasons or Lucas changing his mind again. But in the final scene, there is nothing to indicate the SSD shields are failing until after the dome is blown up and a officer informs the shields are down. Yes Ackbar gives an order, but the SSD is never shown taking fire from any rebel capital ship.

Passing through a base shield to be able to knock out the DS2 shield is relevant and should have been mentioned at the briefing. The Hoth shield is stated to protect the base, while the Endor shield is never stated so. Also no second shield is even mentioned in ROTJ, and Vader's shuttle required clearance to reach DS2. So going by the map, the rebels needed the code to enter the shield column to land inside the yellow circle. Overall, the map doesn't match up with the dialogue very well, it just maybe a case of artistic licence as Lucas is prone to.

I was thinking about that too with timetables and schedules for arrivals. Lucas likes to keep the pace moving and not get bogged down into too much details.

Heck they could have even installed hidden missile tubes into the shuttle or loaded it with makeshift bombs to drop out of the cargo hold like the shuttle in Avatar.

 

Concerning those domes on the bridge, in my headcanon, they're not shield projectors, but sensor antennae. IRL, there are radar systems that look almost exactly like that. The A-wings were shooting at them because they are a critical component of targeting systems; blind the sensors and the weapons don't have nearly as good accuracy. When the shots penetrated and exploded the domes, that was a visual indication that the bridge shields were down, not the cause of the shields going down. I think Ackbar's concentrated firepower is what took out the bridge shields.

My version probably contradicts Cross-Sections and other lesser canon material, but it doesn't contradict anything in the films, and that's good enough for me.

 

Rebels depicts tiny versions of the bridge domes, as shield generators:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/shield-generators

As pointed out:

It makes more "storytelling sense" for that dome explosion, to be what led to the "Bridge shield is down" comment - otherwise it would have been edited in the opposite order - Piett telling us the shield was down, then the A-wing attack on dome would be shown, then cut back to Piett.

Complete Locations - rereleased as a "newcanon" work that isn't Legends any more, compromised by having the shield and sensor be incorporated into the same dome.

 

Lucas, like many writers likes to change details to suit the story rather than make the story fit the details. Of course this does create issues, continuity problems, and sometimes can come off as nonsensical logic wise.

Sarge's theory is about the best in universe explanation I have heard. If the ISDs and rebel ships had shields that did block everything, at least for awhile, would make the battle less interesting. If the domes are shield generators, would there at least be more around the ship, or at least the SSD having larger domes for covering a larger ship? Plus RSDs in ROTS did not have domes like later ISDs, does that mean RSDs lacked shields?

 

Slicer87

Super Star Destroyers DO have additional deflector shield power generators in addition to those on top of the conning tower (and also further below on the port side, notice the unmarked globe in the image ).

Sarge

If the domes aboard the Star Destroyers are not the power generators for deflector shields, then what do you think Ackbar's was talking about?

"ACKBAR We have no choice, General Calrissian. Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude.
LANDO Han will have that shield down. We've got to give him more time...

Head for those Star Destroyers.
Ackbar looks around then makes a decision
ACKBAR Move the fleet forward.
AIDE Yes sir.
Ackbar turns to a Star Captain. Stands next to him.
CAPTAIN Sir, we don’t stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they’re more heavily armored.
ACKBAR I know.
An Aide approaches.
AIDE Forward ships have made contact with the Imperial fleet.
Ackbar points to a Star Destroyer in front of them.
ACKBAR Concentrate on their power generators. If we can knock down their shield our fighters might stand a chance against them.
The ship is rocked by an explosion.
CAPTAIN (yelling) Intensify forward shield! (Intensify auxiliary shields!)
(information from additional scene 113 A from February 15, 1982 in italic)

The beginning of this sequence appears to have been left unaltered, yet the sequence of some words is different from the novelization which suggests some last minute rewrites and re-arranging on location.
Though written and shot as an additional scene, scene 113 A ultimately didn’t make it into the final film, yet it clarifies that that the Rebels didn’t target deflector shield generators on top of the Star Destroyers, but instead power generators (power “trees”) providing the deflector shield energy!"

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...in-return-of-the-jedi.50041047/#post-53629354

 

For what it's worth, the actual reactor cores for ISDs are located deep within the ship, just above the protruding dome that sits behind the hangar bays. I don't recall if the Executor model has a similar underside dome or not.

 

It doesn't have a belly-dome - and there have been no cross-sections of the Executor's interior - just the tower.

 

That is pretty interesting about the extra domes, the picture labels them as scanners globes. Though one has to wonder if it is intentional or just the model makers being lazy and reusing duplicate parts to pad out the detail. Wonder why they are clustered around the bridge tower? Also I think there is a GI Joe in the SSD model somewhere. Still doesn't explain why RSDs and other large ships lack domes but still have shields.

 

I think there's an easy explanation for that. The Empire chose to use a different shield generator manufacturer. Perhaps the globes are more powerful, or more energy-efficient, or they're cheaper, or a whole myriad of reasons.