Should the phrase "under God" be taken out of the United States Pledge of Allegiance?

I don't even remember the last time we said the pledge in school.

If I had to guess, it was 2nd grade. After that, I don't remember it being said, or people even having the option of saying it.

And nobody complained about anything. (That is nobody complained about it not being said, and with that being the case, nobody complained about whether or not "under God" should be taken out)

Gosh, life was so simpler back then.


Latre!

 

Problem is that when we actually did say the pledge, none of us really understood it (well, at least I didn't). Can we seriously expect a 3rd grader to pick and choose that he / she doesn't agree with it and therefore not say it?

 

Good point. So we either should wait until children are old enough to understand it, without the "under God" part, or we should just not say it at all.


Oh, and I was watching Robin Williams tonight, and he was talking about this. He said that instead of "under God", it should be "one nation under Canada and above Mexico".

I like that one.


Latre!

 

yeah, but then we'd be excluding Alaska.

 

And Hawaii!


Latre!

 

One of the remarks made in favor of removing "under God" is that the Pledge contains vocabulary at a ninth grade level and that the "under God" part is likely to be the only part that really young elementary school students would understand.

I don't recall saying the Pledge after elementary school.

 

Absolutely not, even if we are no longer a nation under God, we should be. And, I wish people would actually read the Constitution. It says NOTHING about a wall of separation between church and state. Just, that the Federal Government can not create a state religion. If not for Christians, the Pilgrims would never have come here.

 

So let me get this straight.

We should be a country under God no matter what, right?

I don't know anything about a wall, but I know you should not mix your religion with government.

If the Federal Government cannot create a state religion, then how can we be a nation under God? That seems very religious to me.


Oh, and if not for the Mayflower, the Pilgrims would not have come here.


Latre!

 

Under God
Refers to the fact that our "rights" divine not from a Government or "man" but from a "higher Power" and thus cannot be revoked by humans or government - the government only has that powers that we - grant it
ie
God
to
Humans (people, citizens,ect)
to
Government.

Where the founders came from, Kings and Monarchs often believed their power was from God, and they should decide what the people got. We turned the table with our form of Government. As citizens, our responsibiltiy to the state is to see that it does not exercise too much control.

 

that is what this country was built on

 

I don't get my rights from God, I get my rights from the Constitution of the United States.


Before you protest, consider:

I am a female. Under "God", meaning according to the Bible, I'm the property of my husband, he can divorce me b/c I no longer "find favor in his eyes", my father is allowed to "sell me into marriage" at age six (!) if he's poor and needs the money, I am not counted in the census, I cannot do a lot of the things men can do (like make sacrifices and the like), I cannot make the minyan (a grouping of ten men that is required for Jewish public prayer) but in a case of need a six year old boy who is explained what's going on can be the tenth "man", et cetera, et cetera. Now, the Constitution of the United States gives me the right to vote. It gives me the right to be a full person, not less than a man. I consider that I get my rights from God, not from man.


And consider the claim that the laws of this land are based on the Ten Commandments.

First Commandment: I am your God.
Second Commandment: Don't make idols.
Third Commandment: Don't make a vain oath in the name of the Lord, your God.
Fourth Commandment: Keep the Holy Sabbatical Day.
Fifth Commandment: Honor your parents.

Sixth Commandment: Don't murder.
Seventh Commandment: Don't commit adultery. (That means for the woman. Men can have more than one wife.)
Eighth Commandment: Don't kidnap. (yes, that's what it means. Don't steal is another law somewhere else. Short proof: all the Commandments carry the death penalty for transgressing them, and kidnapping carries the death penalty. Stealing does not. Therefore, the theft here refers to the theft of people.)
Ninth Commandment: Don't bear false witness.
Tenth Commandment: Don't covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.




so, let's break it down. We don't have a common god, so the First doesn't apply and neither does the Second. Cross out the Third also. We don't have a common religion so nix the Fourth. We don't have a law about honoring your parents, so nix the Fifth. That's the first Tablet down the drain.

Second tablet. Sixth holds, we have laws against murder. We have laws against adultery, but they aren't punishable by death. We have laws against kidnapping. So that's part of the Seventh, all of the Eighth. We aren't allowed to perjure, so keep the Ninth as well. We have no laws against wanting things, so get rid of the Tenth.

Less than half of the Commandments apply. So it's obvious that the laws of this country aren't really structured around the Commandments. They look more like "common sense" laws for a good community.

 

If the pledge of allegiance is unconstitutional then the constitution is unconstitutional and so is the declaration of Independence. Each has "the creator" or something like that in it. You know, some people are saying they are offended by a goverment with God. I would be offended in a goverment without God.

 

But it wouldn't be a government without God, it would be a neutral government. One that does not favor a particular god/religion, nor favor those who don't believe in a god.

You can still believe in a god, and I can still not believe in one. Religion should not play a role in government, because it is a representation of the WHOLE country, and the WHOLE country is not religious.

And Liz, I like that breakdown of the 10 commandments. Yes, commen sense seems to win out.

Latre!

 

No, it shouldn't. By the way- when I was younger, I remember learning exactly what the Pledge of Allegiance ment.

 

And what does it mean?


Latre!

 

Deifnately not.
America was founded by Christians and on Christian belief. The only reason our nation continues to prosper is because of God. In the Bible He says that He will bless the nation that honors Him. The problem is America is pulling away from God. Someday, soon I fear, we will stray away completely and we will fall.
Another reason I believe we have prospered as we have is because of our support for Israel. I think that if we decide not to support them we will lose God's blessing and fall.
WE ARE "UNDER GOD"!!!
IMHO.

 

BORK BORK BORK I AM ZE SVEDISH CHEF JA!

 

"In the Bible He says that He will bless the nation that honors Him."


I see! Now it makes sense as to why it was alright to steal the land away from the Native Americans. They did not honor God, so it was alright to take the land from them because those that took it honored God.

And while we're discussing history, that explains why some nations prosper and why some don't. All this time I thought it had something to do with social/economical events. How wrong I have been.

How exactly would you interpret "bless"? There are probably alot of people in America that would argue that they are not blessed at all, that in fact their lives are miserable. (Probably because of a lack of faith I suspect. )

Perhaps evolution has smiled upon us as a nation, and the millions of years of tectonic plate movement has kept us pretty well protected from other nations trying to invade us.

But that's just my silly old opinion.

And yet, what does all this have to do with the term "under God" in a pledge to a country where not everyone believes in God?

Beats me.

Latre!

 

"social/economical events" would likely be the method by which those blessings are adminstered to a nation as a whole. Blessings in the cases of an individual are a stickier wicket. Blessings do not necessarily refer to material wealth.

 

No.

 

They look more like "common sense" laws for a good community."

Very well said about the 10 Commandments, Liz Skywalker! But I won't get into your in-depth analysis about their meanings.

"If the pledge of allegiance is unconstitutional then the constitution is unconstitutional and so is the declaration of Independence."

Boba_Fett__

I don't think we have to go that far. The pledge of allegiance wasn't always a part of our countries' history, government, education, or daily life. It was created early in in 20th century and the "Under God" was added later in the 1950's ... look through this whole thread and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's good reading I assure you!

"The only reason our nation continues to prosper is because of God. In the Bible He says that He will bless the nation that honors Him. The problem is America is pulling away from God."

I agree with you on that God blesses those who follow, worship, and keep His laws, and that there 'seems' to be more and more people who do not worship or acknowledge His existance. For those of us who do believe in Him, just keep the faith that He will prevail. God will continue to exist for those who love and follow Him.

However, you must keep in mind that not everyone in this country feels that way.

"Someday, soon I fear, we will stray away completely and we will fall."

If you are a Christian, then I'll give you a line from Star Wars and I hope that you'll understand: "Search your feelings .... You know it to be true!"

Now, now Master-Jedi-Smith - You know he didn't mean anything in particular about his statements. You said, "Now it makes sense as to why it was alright to steal the land away from the Native Americans. They did not honor God, so it was alright to take the land from them because those that took it honored God."

I'm going to have to say that the answer to your question is "no" ... God isn't punishing anyone nowadays. I think over the past several centuries, He's been more a "hands-off" type. And you are correct in that the mistreatment of others in God's name has been long documented .... and tragic I might add. BTW - how are you doing?!

DoubleAgent- "social/economical events would likely be the method by which those blessings are adminstered to a nation as a whole. Blessings in the cases of an individual are a stickier wicket. Blessings do not necessarily refer to material wealth."

I agree with you on that one. There is more than one way to have a blessing. For some, its being able to walk, or see or hear ... things that many of us take for granted.

But, back to the point at hand. If the constitution does not actually STATE that there be a "pledge of allegiance", can we just get rid of it? Why not?

Again, not everyone believes in God. I do, but that's just me. And not many people (high schoolers in particular) actually state the pledge ... they just stand there and look lost or half-asleep. If there was "no" pledge, then it wouldn't be insulting anyone's belief who do believe in God AND it wouldn't be insulting those who didn't believe in God.

That sounds good to me. I'm not just trying to make eveyrone happy, but I am trying to find a fair and peaceful solution to the question (and the problem) on hand.

 

I know, I know. I just couldn't resist.


And DM10, I'm doing super duper! How are you?

Latre!

 

That's okay Sweetie!!! I was just giving you a hard-time!

I'm doing very well - I dropped one of my summer classes and have about 1/2 the stress I usually do!

I would like to say again, that I am so glad that you still partake in this discussion!!! I love to hear what people think and have to say ... it makes life so much more interesting, don't you agree?

I gotta run, but I hope you (and everyone else here) has a great day!!!

 

Liz Skywalker -
You are so narrow minded. You have taken the Ten Commandments out of context. You have taken the Bible itself out of context. Just because the jewish religion does not allow females to take part in th "minyan" does not mean that is what God said and requires. The Bible is filled with people that make up laws that God did not tell them were accurate, therefore when Jesus set foot here on earth he reprimanded them.

It is not true that God allows a man to have more than one wife, in fact, he forbids it!! He also forbids divorce of any kind. Moses was the one that said that you could divorce only if you spouse was unfaithful. That was not the orignal idea. A female is not the property of her husband, but she must "submit" (I use that word loosely) to him. As the Church submits to Christ. But, in return the husband must ALWAYS love the wife, as Christ has and will always love the Church.
Selling a daughter into marriage is a cultural thing, you cannot say that the Bible allows this. It does not!

No, we do not have a common god. But, the Founding Fathers did. You should honor your parents because it is the right thing to do, not because there is a law. Do you do everything that there is a law for or do you do others things too? The need not be a law for everything, need there?

You must make the laws apply to your own life, personally. You cannot make decsion for others, they must decide to coincide withe Ten Commandments.

In a nutshell, you have closed your mind to the truth of the Ten Commandments, you know not what they really mean. You have taken them and made them out to be what you want them to be.

Thanks DarthMom10!!

 

No it shouldn't. if people want to go around making their own pledges they can go ahead and do so, but this is the pledge I say, and will always say.

Whooo, that's gotta be the most patriotic thing I've ever written...